Ok I dont believe in the God of the Bible, so convert me!

[Convert Me]

I dont believe in the God of the BIble, but am always willing to listen to other peoples opinions and arguments. So this is your chance to plant a mustard seed!

I dont believe in the God of the Bible becuase the bible is filled with contradictions. The God of the old testament is a monster, while the one portrayed in the new is that of a loving god. How is this possible? There are only two possibilities.

1 That the bible is divinely inspired and both accounts are correct(if the bible is the holy word of God it cannot be disected)

2 That the bible is the work of man(thereby rendering it not the word of God.)

What about the deuterocanonicals? These were included in the original catholic version of the bible. How is the protestant removal of these scriptures not disection. The word of God can either be completely true or completely in error, there is no middle Ground! The bible makes this itself clear.

if #1 is true, then at best we can describe the God of the Bible an ever changing tyrant, whos will is situational.

if #2 is correct, then the true account of who God is maybe nothing to what the bible professes. In this case how can you be sure that you are getting the true saving message? If every religion can interpret the scripture in there own ideal, then that leaves little evidence to the Holy spirit! But of course every religion thinks that they are right and the other is wrong. So is the holy spirit merely ones own interpretation also? The Bible says that the Devil decieves and can mimic the holy spirit, how do you know that your holy spirit is not that of the one who is like the morning star? For Lucifer would surely come to you with sweet words to fill your ears!!

 

[MizDoulos]

<i><b>I dont believe in the God of the BIble, but am always willing to listen to other peoples opinions and arguments. So this is your chance to plant a mustard seed!</i></b>

Hi, Convert Me, and welcome to the forum!

From all of your statements, you sound very solid in your stance against the claims of the Bible. And that's OK.

May I suggest several books for you to read that may help to answer your questions. They are:

"The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel and "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

These are excellent books for those who are truly seeking answers regarding the Bible. I highly recommend them.

Grace to you,

Pat

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Hey "Convert me"

I don't believe that my words can convince you but rather only the Holy Spirit...human knowledge and wisdom pale in comparison to Him. But here's my take on what you're saying...

You don't exactly know the God of the Old Testament (shall be refered to as OT for future reference)

The God of the Old Testament was FULL of love, you seem to have skipped over those parts. Half the 10 Commandments are enstilled because of the effects on others attitude and how you relate to others. Check these verses as reference to the love of the God in OT...

Deuteronomy 4:40, 6:4-5(in fact all of 6); Leviticous 19:10,18

These are just laws, let alone how He showed His love from all the times He saved Israel from the punishment He put them through for disobeying and truning from Him.

But just as He is a God of love, He is also holy and therefore a God of wrath and vengenace. "Vengance is Mine"-sayeth the Lord (not sure of exact verse, so just read the whole Bible to find it )

I'm sorry that you do not believe in Him, because the Word says "even the devils believe and tremble" (James 2:19)

You will know Him one day, just under which circumstances is the part you will have to decide...when you meet Him at His judgment or whether you accept Christ in this life. It is up to you.

"None the less, the earth moves"-Gallileo
"None the less, there is a God-and He's the one of the Bible"-Me

Happy WORD searching!!

 

[Servant of God]

If you would like a really good website that can answer all of those questions, here's one--
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

However, you probably don't want to pour through pages of theology, philosophy, and apologetic material, so i'll try to answer your questions.

I dont believe in the God of the Bible becuase the bible is filled with contradictions.

I find this unlikely. Could you please show me what contradictions you have found. I would like to evaluate them also, because like you have said, if the Word of God is filled with contradictions, then it is merely words of men. Please don't post a link and say "here they are", because that dosen't require any thought on your part. If you get some from sites, by all means post them and let's have a look.

The God of the old testament is a monster, while the one portrayed in the new is that of a loving god.

There are many verses that contradict that statement. However, i understand that without careful study this conclusion could be easily drawn. I could cite Scripture for you that proves this, but right now i'd like to just lay the foundation of my objections.

What about the deuterocanonicals? These were included in the original catholic version of the bible. How is the protestant removal of these scriptures not disection. The word of God can either be completely true or completely in error, there is no middle Ground! The bible makes this itself clear.

You're right. If the deuterocanonicals(i always heard them called "apocrapha") are in fact God's message to man, then they should be included in the Protestant Bible. Each of these removed books were eliminated because the people that eliminated them felt very strongly that those books were NOT the in line with the rest of the Bible, and therefore not God's Word. However, i don't know why each book was removed. Perhaps somebody out there reading this could contribute in this area.

if #1 is true, then at best we can describe the God of the Bible an ever changing tyrant, whos will is situational.

Since #1 states that the Bible IS the Word of God and infallible, this statement cannot be true since, by the conditions stated in scenario one, this is also true-"but you remain the same..."(Ps102.27)(also see Heb13.8)
As you have pointed out, if the Bible is full of contridictions, then it is not worth our time. However i don't believe this is the case. Often times, such as the material at "skeptics annoted bible", these greivances are merely distortions by ignorant and unstable people(2Peter3.16).

If every religion can interpret the scripture in there own ideal, then that leaves little evidence to the Holy spirit!

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you expound if it is important to you?

But of course every religion thinks that they are right and the other is wrong.

That's not true. Hinduism beleives they, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, etc are all correct and unconflicting under the philosophy of "both hand", meaning we are all right, no matter what we beleive. However, Christianity does hold that only Christians(followers of Jesus Christ) can enter the heaven(Jn14.6).

The Bible says that the Devil decieves and can mimic the holy spirit, how do you know that your holy spirit is not that of the one who is like the morning star?

Yes, the Bible says that the Devil is the king of deceit, but i don't know where it says the Devil can mimic the holy spirit. I know that the holy spirit in me is of God because it is opposed to what i once was, a slave to everyting evil. If the holy spirit that has caused me to dramaticly change against that old way of life is from the Devil, then he is harming himself, since i am now working against him and for his enemy. Also, the spirit that lives within me has the characteristics of God's spirit(Gal5.22) expressed through my actions that God compells me to do. The pharasees tried to say the same thing about Jesus in Matthew Chapter 12. He responded(Matt12.25) by saying that a house divided against itself cannot stand. In other words, if half of my football team wants to lose a game, we're gonna lose!

For Lucifer would surely come to you with sweet words to fill your ears!!

Yes, but God's words are a double-edged sword that peirce into the soul and judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart(Heb4.12). It does not feel soothing to know that you are completely wrong in the way you view life, and everything you have done for yourself is a chasing after the wind(Ecc2.11). It is far more soothing and reassuring to beleive that you are right and there isn't a higher code we must abide by. Maybe the reason non-Christians don't love to read the Bible like most Christians is because it is NOT soothing and sweet to their ears.
Finally, could you tell me a little bit about your belief system? Are you an aeithist, agnostic, or some variation of religions (or lack thereof)? I am a Christian that beleives the Bible is the Word of God and infallible.

 

[Droobie]

Which contradiction in the Bible were you talking about exactly?

 

[VeraciousMaven]

1 That the bible is divinely inspired and both accounts are correct(if the bible is the holy word of God it cannot be disected)


if #1 is true, then at best we can describe the God of the Bible an ever changing tyrant, whos will is situational.

You make brave claims and I would like to hear their justification.

By 'disected' do you mean examined, or cut into pieces then tossed about randomly?

Also ... you call God (of the Christian Bible) a tyrant who is unstable at best. I wouldn't mind hearing some evidence, and keep in mind the covenant God made with man (regarding Jesus). Sin has always required blood to nullify its evil -- thus sacrafice of the OT. The OT fortold of a sacrafice provided by God, that would attone for all men. Jesus, God's son, was sent down and used as this sacrafice. Now, if one believes and obeys, he is saved. Blood has been paid -- we do not need to spill blood anylonger.

Drawn out? Yes.

Indecipherable? Maybe.

Useless? Unlikely.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Monster? Not God the creator? I would ask that you read Genesis Chapter 6

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

All flesh were corrupted by the fallen angels called "sons of God". That was the reason for the flood, Satan was trying to stop the promised one of Genesis 3:verse 15, from coming (Jesus Christ) whom he promised since the beginning when Adam sinned. But Satan didnt stop, he continued to use this as a stumbling block after the flood for the choosen people (Israel). That is why when they went into the promised land the Lord God told them to conquer some and others to kill. The ones he told them to kill were not 100% human-beings they were these renowned men of old and their offspring, otherwise known in Mythology as gods.

 

[Convert Me]

If it is the Nephilim you are referring to talked about in Genesis. The Bible says that they were there before the flood, and then in later passages that they were also present after the floods. But the world was destroyed in the flood. Surely the Nephilim did not survive the universal flood God Prescribed to rid the world of the corrupt of the time? You are in fact refering to the Nephilim? Where does it make mention that the descendants living in the land of Canan were of the Nephilim? Did Satan foil God's Plan to rid the earth of What God Desired? God who spoke and it was so?

I appoligize I will reply more in dept to some of the comments tommorow! But tonight I am tired and need some sleep!!

 

[GreenEyedLady]

There were 25 Specific predictions made by the OT prophets bearing on the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus. These were utter by differant prophets during the pierod of BC1000-BC500, yet they were all literally fullfilled in a 24 hour pierod. According the the law of compound probabilities there was ONE chance in 33,554,432 that these 25 predictions would be fullfilled as prophesised.
It is a fact that there were 109 predictions literally fullfilled at Christ fisrt advent in the flesh. Apply the compound law and that increases the chance of ONE in BILLIONS that they would be fullfilled by ONE person.

Did you know that there was a ONE in40,320 chance that MOSES recorded the "days" in genisis, in the order that science claims they occured??

Now tell me....how can the bible be a contradiction???
Tell me HOW it can not be inspired???
:o

 

[SonWorshipper]

Yes , I am talking about THE HEBREW WORD Nephilim from nephil which comes from the Prime Root - Naphal which first meaning is "TO FALL" other definitions are giant, bully or tyrant. There were many nations of these giants. called, Hittites, Perizzites, Raphaims, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es, Jebusites,Hivites, Anakims, Emims, Horims, Avims, Zamzummims and Caphtorims as well as the well known Philistines from whom Goliath was their most well known "bully". This is similar to saying Europeans, but some are French, Italian, Swiss,German, Belgian, etc, still Europeans but from different areas and different peoples.
The day that noah went into the ark and God closed the door the ones in the ark were the only ones left on Earth that were of pure Adamic stock. Everyone else was Half-human half-fallen angel (demon) that is why the earth was filled with violence. Satan had gotten that close to totally distroying pure man ( but only because God allowed him to go that far) before God had to stop it and destroy all giants in the earth. If you do a tally from Adam up to Noah you will see that Noah's father Lamech(who had to be pure in his DNA ) died just before the flood, he was the last one. This is what is meant by:

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah found Grace ( was saved out of the devestation of the Flood) because verse 9 " and he was perfect in his generations" He still had total Adamic DNA -not corrupted.

The giants that were there then of course did not survive, but Satan thought he almost did it the first time why not try again.You will notice when looking up these different branches of giants that they were all in the area called the promise land, another proof that they were fallen angels trying to stop God's plan. This was God's territory on earth so to speak and he wanted his chosen to live there, so who inhabits it first? Satans offspring to keep them from possessing the land. God dwelt in the holy mountain where Jerusalem now is , way back even before Abrahams time.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Yes , I am talking about THE HEBREW WORD Nephilim from nephil which comes from the Prime Root - Naphal which first meaning is "TO FALL" other definitions are giant, bully or tyrant. There were many nations of these giants. called, Hittites, Perizzites, Raphaims, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es, Jebusites,Hivites, Anakims, Emims, Horims, Avims, Zamzummims and Caphtorims as well as the well known Philistines from whom Goliath was their most well known "bully". This is similar to saying Europeans, but some are French, Italian, Swiss,German, Belgian, etc, still Europeans but from different areas and different peoples.
The day that noah went into the ark and God closed the door the ones in the ark were the only ones left on Earth that were of pure Adamic stock. Everyone else was Half-human half-fallen angel (demon) that is why the earth was filled with violence. Satan had gotten that close to totally distroying pure man ( but only because God allowed him to go that far) before God had to stop it and destroy all giants in the earth. If you do a tally from Adam up to Noah you will see that Noah's father Lamech(who had to be pure in his DNA ) died just before the flood, he was the last one. This is what is meant by:

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah found Grace ( was saved out of the devestation of the Flood) because verse 9 " and he was perfect in his generations" He still had total Adamic DNA -not corrupted.

The giants that were there then of course did not survive, but Satan thought he almost did it the first time why not try again.You will notice when looking up these different branches of giants that they were all in the area called the promise land, another proof that they were fallen angels trying to stop God's plan. This was God's territory on earth so to speak and he wanted his chosen to live there, so who inhabits it first? Satans offspring to keep them from possessing the land. God lived in the holy mountain where Jerusalem now is , way backeven before Abrahams time.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by sonworshipper

All flesh were corrupted by the fallen angels called "sons of God". That was the reason for the flood, Satan was trying to stop the promised one of Genesis 3:verse 15, from coming (Jesus Christ) whom he promised since the beginning when Adam sinned. But Satan didnt stop, he continued to use this as a stumbling block after the flood for the choosen people (Israel). That is why when they went into the promised land the Lord God told them to conquer some and others to kill. The ones he told them to kill were not 100% human-beings they were these renowned men of old and their offspring, otherwise known in Mythology as gods. [/B]

I disagree with this interpretation. God alone has the perogative of creating life, Satan does not. If these were indeed fallen angels then that means that they had the ability to produce a tangible body and cohabit with human women. This seems more in line with Greek mythology than with biblical truth. The biggest problem is the logical conclusion of what is to stop demons from doing it again? Did God allow demons the power to do these things? I prefer the interpretation that the "sons of God" are godly men as opposed to the heathen nations.

 

[SonWorshipper]

So what you are saying Apologist is that God destoyed Godly men? In 1John 3:1 it says

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God

this means men AND women In the new testament but Jesus sees both as the same in the kingdom which is what this is talking about.Galatians 3:26 -28 States

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

so as you can see here that if we in the kingdom are all (male and female ) called Sons of God then it would be impossible for these sons of god to be the same as these:

Genesis 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Originally posted by Apologist

I prefer the interpretation that the "sons of God" are godly men as opposed to the heathen nations.

If this is so how do you explain this verse?
JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also amoung them.

This is a scene from Heaven where The Lord dwells and if the sons of God are Godly men as you suppose then what are they doing hanging out with satan?

 

[Convert Me]

Ok I am back as I promissed. I just want to reply quickly to the last comment before I begin. On regards to the Nephilim. I understand were you are coming from, but I dont think that you have proven where it says that the tribes in the land of Canan were descended of these tribes. Please show some scripture that makes this clear. Also if the Flood was a World or universal flood as the Bible states and not merely a regional or even flood confined to certain nations of the world, then how is it possible that the offspring of the Sons of God, could have survived. Thus if they were wiped out, how then does the argument that God Commanded the Jews to kill the innhabitants of the land of Canan becuase they were not of pure human stock hold true?


Now someone asked to me give some back ground and show some incosistencies so I will. My background can be summed up by saying that I was raised in a Protestant Church. I attended for much of my young life until I got to High School, where I took the path of most kids, wanting to have fun. Later on in college I got back into Church, due to some hard times I had experienced. For a while I thought I had found the answers that I needed, but it was ironically the new desire that I had found to grow spiritually that began to lead me away from the message of Christianity. I began to explore the differences in belief in the protestant faiths, to learn which message I felt was the true one. I studied the bible more than I had ever studied it previously in my life, and read alot of literature, both pro and against Christianity. I learned of things I never knew about like the Catholic belief, The Deuterocanonicals, various Gospels ommitted from the bible etc etc etc.

e Through my search a pattern became apparent to me, that of all the faiths that I encountered, and through all the enterpretations of the same scripture, each came to his own conclusion, and of course thought that their way was the only true one. Often the Various differences were misicule, but some were very definant, such to the extent that there interpretation had made it clear other faiths were based on lie, and therefore rendering them at the best useless, at the worst false doctrine with a damning mesage. The souring effect was that each of these Doctrines could validate their claims through the quotation of scripture, but when questioned, could not prove validity other than through ispiration through the holy spirit. This struck me as odd, becuase not everyone can be right!!!! But each earnestly believes in their heart that they are right!! So one can make the argument that if everyone believes that they are right, then how are you to tell in earnest THAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE NOT INSPIRED BY FALSE PROPHETS, OR THE WORDS OF DECIEVERS?? IF OTHERS CAN EARNESTLY DECIEVED, THE ONLY PROOF THAT YOU HAVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT MAY BE THE VERY DECEPTION OF YOUR OWN HEART!!!! This was the first nail in coffin.

The second nail in the coffin was the fact that the more I studdied the bible the more distortions I began to see. Now Keep in mind that at the time, I was not reading the bible to discredit it, but to find validation to my faith!! I was looking for answers to challenge the things that I saw with my eyes, and heard with my ears. I would ask God each time to show me the truths, and to help me to find strength in my faith, but the more I read the more began to see the contradictions. I talked to my pastor about these contradictions but all that he could tell me was that you had to understand the context of them. He even tried to reasure me that we as humans cannot understand the mind of God, and that is why the bible seems so confusing! I tried to understand this, but the fact remained that no one could asnwer my question how and omniscient God can change his mind, and his divinely inspired word can contradict itself. The best anyone could ever do was to explain it away that we are not meant to understand God. This is mearly a vague attempt to back up a week doctrine.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

 

[Convert Me]

The Final Nail in the coffin came in a discussion with my friend about hell. The conversation became heated rapidly as I explained to him the Christian ideal of hell and saving through grace. he said so God is going to burn me in hell because I fail to realize and believe that Christ is the Messiah. I said that God was not going to burn him, he had chosen it himself, God gave him a way out because he loved him. So he made the point that if God is omniscient and the Creater of everything, that he was to suffer becasue he could not see how a loving God would design him to fall from Grace. I instructed him on the fall of man, but once again the argument of omniscience could not be ignored. God would have already known that man would fall when he made him, in fact it would have to be Gods plan if in fact he was all knowing. So then the fall of man is merely man taking the responsibility for the will of God, and lacks the principles of Justice. Without Justice God cannot be righteous. I argued that God Gave us free will, which would explain the will of man, but before man ate the fruit of knowledge he did not know right from wrong, so again it would be impossible for man to truly have free will if he is ignorant of sin. He cannot choose what he does not know!! You could even make the argument that mad did not know it was wrong to disobey God, and that a threat of death meant nothing to him, it was an alien concept, he was ignorant of its meaning. If you threaten your dog with death it will mean very little to him!! So then obeying God's will of death for sin, becomes mans suffering for what God placed on him in his ignorance. And accepting absolution for ones sin becuase merely the pacification of an unjust God, to save yourself from his wrath.
He further argued that millions of people have died without ever hearing Gods message, what are to happen to these people? Are they to burn for eternity, simply becuase someone didnt evangelize them? Christians often say that what keeps people from God is pride, or that they are not responsible for God reaching peoples hearts, they just plant the seed. But there are and have been for thousands of years, millions upon millions, who have not heard the scripture, or have had a seed planted. Does God throw away these persons? And even if we choose not to accept the scriptures, more than not it is not out of desire to be beligerent to God, its becuase most people just cant swallow them. The only sin that millions upon millions of us will burn at the hands of your God for is out Ignorance. Yet if God does not make the truths clear to our heart, who will? If we lie and pretend to accept them, it is still a lie, and God would surely know our hearts anyway!!!!!!

CONTINUED NEXT MESSAGE

 

[Convert Me]

Now on to the Scriptures I promissed.

For reference I will be quoting the NIV, becuase of its more modern english, though at times I may refer to the KJV to account for mere discrepencies in the wording of the text.


The first set will be to show contradictions in Genesis.


GE 1:3-5 God said, let their be light, and there was light. God saw that it was good and he separated the light form the darkness. God called the light day and the darkness night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

(contradiction)
GE 1:14-19 And God said Let here be lights in the expanse of the sky to separatet the day from the night and ler them serve as signs to mark the seasons and days and years, and let them be lights on earth. and it was so. God made two great lights, the greater light to Govern the day and the lesser light to Govern the night. He also made the stars. God sent them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. To govern the day and the night and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

(conclusion)
Besides the obvious contradictions to the known physical properties of the Universe. The Bible clearly contradicts itself upon which day, the darkness and light were divided. This may seem as though Im reaching for straws here, but the truth remains that, the bible claims itself to be the infallable word of God. I suppose if God divided light and darkness on the first day, he thought he would do it on the fourth as well just to make sure he did it right??

since someone brought up the Nephilim lets look at those scriptures.

GE 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God went to the daughters of men. and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

GE 7:21-22 EVERY living thing that moved on the earth perished, birds, livestock. wild animals, all the creatures that swarm the earth and ALL MANKIND. Everything on dry land that had the breath of of life in its nostrils died.

GE 13:33 We saw the Nephilim there( the descendants of Anal come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.

(Conclusion)
At first this looks like a bare contradiction, and it very well maybe evidence that proof readers were needed in those days for Moses, But upon further examination, and even to the explanation of the NIV they only seemed the Nephilim to the People, and this word was used to invoke fear. So if in fact they could not be descendants of the Nephilim, then they were mortal men, upon which God invoked the complete slaughter by the Tribes of Israel, slaughter which involved innocents.
yet there are around 6 passages where God prohibits killing.
EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK:18:20, RO:13:9, JA 2:11
GE 34:1-35:5 seems to suggest that God condones deception.
while DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18 ALL are passages where God orders killing. This should be disturbing, because God, at Best is portrayed in these passages as a being whose consciousness of Morality is ever changing to fit the situation. This contradicts a righteous God.

Speaking of Righteosness

There are passages that proclaim men as righteous
GE 7:1, JA 5:16, 1JN 3:6-9

While in other passages the bible says differently
RO 3:10 says AS it is written there is no one righteous, not even one. RO 3:21-23 points that righteousness only comes through faith and acceptance of Jesus Christ. This statement destroys the old Law, because righteousness is impossible through it. But If you cannot choose which parts of the bible you like and discard those you do not, it Shows time and time again How the God of the Old Testament Failed the People of Israel, through an insufficient Law!! What does this say about God? Is it merely enough to say that we are not meant to understand the mind of God? Or is the God Presented in the Bible incosistent, thus making him not compatible with What the Bible states about God, and itself??

In closing I Thought I would tell you about my personal beliefs in case you are interested or wondering, and if you want I can post many more examples, that I have come across and been pointed to. I am not an atheist, not am I a Pantheist. I do believe in God, but I do not think that we as human beings have the right idea. This is my honest belief. I have accepted Christ once in my life, and I cannot deny that overall if you look at his life as portrayed in the bible, that the message that his story carries, is one that if applied for the most part, would cause no harm, and in fact would do the world wonders. I dont know if Jesus is infact Messiah, but I believe that infact if there is a so called Messiah, it may very well be Jesus, or that the Christ spirit may have inhabitted him, but I dont feel we have to true message. However I do not think that the world follows the teachings of Christ, even professed Christians seem more concerned in him as a ticket to heaven rather than a model for their lives.

I believe that we must strive as Human beings to a higher level of cognition and a Greater sense of Morality, will a love and respect of our fellow mans rights. You might say I have some Christian Gnostic tendencies, but even the Valentian Gnostic Teachings can only make its claim through interpretation, But it may be in fact closer to the message that is truthful!! I am not certain. The message of Christianity has become soured to me, becuase I think it lacks compassion, somthing that must be paramount to a God worth worshiping. And I believe in my heart that if I am to burn at the hands of a Christian Ideal of God that my only sin against him will have been my ignorance to his truth, that my heart does not see. A heart which he gave me.

 

[rkbo]

That was a whole lot of stuff there. You have a turmoil going on, it seems. You want to believe, but God messed up the Bible so you can't believe.

Friend if you have studied like you say then you know the answer to all these questions. I also have studied the so called contradictios of the Bible. You know as well as I do that the syntax, culture, idioms, axioms, transliterations, and on and on it goes, has to be studied to get to the bottom of many of these so called problems. Some are easily solved.

I think something deeper is going on with you. You have been hurt by a Christian or something like that. You seem to have an animosity going on here. Instead of pushing God away, try embracing him. I know the heart can not delight in what the mind rejects as false. I'm not saying throw reason out the window. But there will always be questions. You will always get to a point of unanswered questions, if you ask enough of them.

You must realize the faith does not go against reason. Faith takes us farther than reason can. That is, reason takes us so far and faith takes us that next step. You must come to God by faith. It is the only way. Like I said, we don't throw reason out the window but ultimatly it is faith that takes us to the open arms of God.

The faith of a child is what he wants. Stop spinning your wheels. Get some traction and run back to God. These question you have are answerable but what if they aren't. Will you not believe in God because all your questions will not get solved.

I know that the Bible problems are solvable. I've gone over all of them. There are tougher ones than you've singled out. I am at least of average IQ and am happy to be a Believer in Jesus Christ and the power of his resurrection.


Read another book if it will make you feel better. Try "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" Josh McDowell

 

[SonWorshipper]

I beleive that the bible we have today ( and I do not agree with the NIV version) was fully inspired by God. That he had power in each word that was written down and in what order and even the way it was put together with chapters and verses and the numbering of such. If it read like a Dick and Jane primer where would the faith part come in ? You want gnosis? try looking at what "appears" to be simple words and contraditions and peel the whole onion that is God's being. If you classify him in the group of men with man's metality and capability then you will never understand him. Peel back the layers to learn of the wonders of him, only those who seek will find. If you are looking for contradictions you will find them, but if you are really searching for the one who created you with a pure heart , he will reveal himself to you.
You know , Geneisis is my second favorite book, my first is Revelation. Both of these books contain many puzzles and I love solving puzzles. I do have the mental capacity to realize that I will not know everything till I go to Heaven where all of God's perfect plan will be revealed and all the pieces of the puzzle are put together and are complete. I do try to work on them just to know and appreciate my Lord all the more.

Have you ever read the "Panorama of Creation " by Carl E. Baugh , PH.D., he is founder of the creation Evidences museum in Glen Rose, Tx. It explains alot of confusing things in the first part of Genesis. I would be happy to discuss those with you.

Check your PM box

 

[Convert Me]

Its obvious that each of our minds are set on our own independent conclusions to what we have observed about the bible, And yes there are more serious problems than the ones that I have pointed out. Problems with translation etc, etc. But I chose the ones I represented, not becuase I thought that they were the hardest to understand, but that they could be understood by relatively most people who looked at them, and are more to do with morality. Which even though a somewhat simple concept at times, presents one of the basic arguments in itself. Righteousness as the bible claims it to be, must be more than situational and vague, it must be clearly unified.


Something that I have been recently studying, lately invlolves Gods Refusal of Cains Sacrifice, and ties in the Nephilim, and the mythology of Litlith, and Golems! If anyone has studied this I would love to hear what there views on this matters are?

Is it possible that God refused Cains sacrifice, because he was not of Human stock? Was he of the opposite blood line than Adam. The Blood line of the Nephilim? Jesish Legend calls Cain's father Samael(IL) and then Satan(IL)(the one who Judges man kind). Does the legend of the Golem spring forth from the competition of the two blood lines, one of Human Adam, and the other of H'ILL. The Catholic Faith deems possesion as the only way for Satan to take physical form(Eat dust?) Is the Golem mythology truly based upon this? The Mark of Cain placed upon him and his line what was it! Is the Hebrew text when referring to shining talking of simply a horn growing from his forehead, or of the power of this blood line? Was Cain unable to leterally die?
When Jesus refers to the seed planted by God and the seed planted by the evil one, is this a biological seed? These two will grow together until the last days when they will be sparated? Its just a thought and theory mind you, but interesting!!

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by sonworshipper
I beleive that the bible we have today ( and I do not agree with the NIV version) was fully inspired by God.

SonWorshipper,

I am curious as to why you don't agree with the NIV translation?


God Bless