Ohio governor signs bill allowing armed school employees

TLK Valentine

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Ohio lawmaker who wrote bill requiring gun training for teachers owns gun training business

The Republican lawmaker who drafted the training curriculum that schools would have to follow to allow teachers in Ohio to carry guns owns a gun training business that seemingly fits all the required steps in the bill.

What a serendipitous and completely unexpected windfall for Mr. Hoagland!

Remember, boys and girls -- we can't politicize tragedy, but we can profit from it.
 
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expos4ever

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Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year.
From Politifact (PolitiFact - Trump-backed ex-pitcher Curt Schilling misleads saying self-defense gun use stops 2.5 million crimes):

Other gun researchers we contacted view Kleck’s 2.5 million estimate as extremely high.

Surveying people about events that rarely occur always produces overestimates, said Harvard University professor of health policy David Hemenway.

The best survey of crime is the National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted by the U.S. Justice Department and the Census Bureau since 1973, Duke University professor of public policy studies Philip Cook told us.

"There are subtle differences" between it and Kleck’s survey, in how questions about self-defense are asked, "but the difference in the resulting estimate of how often guns are used in self-defense is huge," he said. In recent years, the NCVS-based estimate is less than 100,000 per year, Cook said.

Both figures have their critics.

The 2.5 million is "not plausible given other information that is more trustworthy, such as the total number of U.S. residents who are injured or killed by guns each year," the RAND Corp. said in a 2018 analysis. "At the other extreme, the NCVS "almost certainly underestimates the true number."


 
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HARK!

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From Politifact (PolitiFact - Trump-backed ex-pitcher Curt Schilling misleads saying self-defense gun use stops 2.5 million crimes):

Other gun researchers we contacted view Kleck’s 2.5 million estimate as extremely high.

Surveying people about events that rarely occur always produces overestimates, said Harvard University professor of health policy David Hemenway.

The best survey of crime is the National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted by the U.S. Justice Department and the Census Bureau since 1973, Duke University professor of public policy studies Philip Cook told us.

"There are subtle differences" between it and Kleck’s survey, in how questions about self-defense are asked, "but the difference in the resulting estimate of how often guns are used in self-defense is huge," he said. In recent years, the NCVS-based estimate is less than 100,000 per year, Cook said.

Both figures have their critics.

The 2.5 million is "not plausible given other information that is more trustworthy, such as the total number of U.S. residents who are injured or killed by guns each year," the RAND Corp. said in a 2018 analysis. "At the other extreme, the NCVS "almost certainly underestimates the true number."


So the Obama Administration got it wrong?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Did you read it? Obama ordered the report.

The report Obama ordered seems to be a different one from the FEE article from which you drew your statistics in the same post. But if you say they are one and the same, it would be unwise of me to question you.
 
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HARK!

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The report Obama ordered seems to be a different one from the FEE article from which you drew your statistics in the same post. But if you say they are one and the same, it would be unwise of me to question you.

Obama's estimates were even higher. Take your pick.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Obama's estimates were even higher. Take your pick.

It would be unwise, under the circumstances, to debate this mater further. Feel free to pick for me.
 
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Arcangl86

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Obama's estimates were even higher. Take your pick.
Nope. The report said that one of the estimates was 3 million. It also said that another estimation was only 180k. And instead of endorsing either one it simply said that the estimates are controversial. So no, the Obama admin did not estimate that guns were used defensively 3 million times a year.
 
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Arcangl86

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The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18319/chapter/3#12

LOL!
So you acknowledge that the Obama Admin isn't the people making those estimations?
 
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Arcangl86

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The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18319/chapter/3#12

Even the Obama Administration couldn't downplay the reality enough, and still retain any credibility.
So do you retract your initial statement, or are you going to keep moving the goalposts?
 
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Arcangl86

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The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18319/chapter/3#12

OBAMA!
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/18319.

As you can see, the estimation was done by Kleck, not the Obama admin.
 
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KCfromNC

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The significant real-world points that I've been trying to make are:

1. Nobody is attempting to think through the real issues that are involved in turning classroom teachers into armed government agents. It's not merely a matter of saying "Oh my goodness, no!" nor is it a matter of merely saying, "It's better than nothing." Somebody needs to think about the legal ramifications and the moral expectations.

2. The people advocating arming teachers are not facing the fact that they aren't going to get even the most rudimentary training for the armed defense task they are expected to do. A heavily armed shooter expecting to go out in a blaze of glory in a school full of children is almost the worst possible scenario. All he wants to do is kill the maximum number of children before being killed himself. In terms of risk and losses, there is hardly a worst situation for even the most well-trained combat force going in fully prepared for combat. What do we realistically expect a schoolteacher--who is never going to be trained well enough, and will always be caught by surprise-- to do?
I'll add

3. There seems to be very little support from actual teachers for this plan. It's the very definition of pointless to pretend the solution to a problem is giving someone the freedom do do something none of that group is planning to do ... instead of a solution, it's just window dressing around doing nothing.
 
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