Occams Barber

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Ohh No! Not another transitional fossil!!!

Rivaling the evolution of feathers in dinosaurs, one of the most extraordinary transformations in the history of life was the evolution of baleen -- rows of flexible hair-like plates that blue whales, humpbacks and other marine mammals use to filter relatively tiny prey from gulps of ocean water. The unusual structure enables the world's largest creatures to consume several tons of food each day, without ever chewing or biting. Now, Smithsonian scientists have discovered an important intermediary link in the evolution of this innovative feeding strategy: an ancient whale that had neither teeth nor baleen.

The first whales used teeth to chew their food; a characteristic passed on from their land-dwelling ancestors. In the absence of clear evidence, it had been hypothesized that baleen whales went through a transitional stage where teeth may have coexisted with baleen.

A re-examination of Maiabalaena nesbittae, a 33-million-year-old whale fossil originally found in the 1970s, has established that there was no direct transition from teeth to baleen filter feeding. Instead Maiabalaena used a sucking action to take up small fish and squid. A CT scan indicated that Maiabalaena’s upper jaw was too thin and narrow to support baleen. Throat muscle attachment points also indicate strong cheeks and a retractable tongue needed to develop the sucking power for feeding.

This finding is significant in that it adds a major transitional form to the series describing whale evolution. It also provides new insight by showing that whale evolution could proceed without requiring either teeth or baleen.

Read more at:
Whales lost their teeth before evolving hair-like baleen in their mouths: Newly described fossil whale in museum collections reveals a surprising intermediate step in their evolution
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OB
 

Tom 1

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Well, when I was at Uni stuff I put in the fridge used to regularly 'transition' from states such as 'in the packet' and 'untouched' to 'not there anymore' and 'half-eaten'. Where's your fancy 'sciencey' explanation for that?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Reminds me of a church meeting where Doctor Cornelius Fossil was to speak on "Stones of the Past". He was introduced by the pastor who said, "I'm not sure whether this is my primary interest, but I am sure it will be enlightening for those fascinated with Archaeology. I will ask Dr Fossil, when he has completed his lecture, to finish us all off with prayer!"
 
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royal priest

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Well, when I was at Uni stuff I put in the fridge used to regularly 'transition' from states such as 'in the packet' and 'untouched' to 'not there anymore' and 'half-eaten'. Where's your fancy 'sciencey' explanation for that?
The process of 'natural selection' had occurred since your option was most conducive to one's survivial. (Intelligent design only enters this argument for the sake of culinary art)
 
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Tom 1

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The process of 'natural selection' had occurred since your option was most conducive to one's survivial. (Intelligent design only enters this argument for the sake of culinary art)

Interesting - as the 'stoner' compadres who 'intelligently designed' my food out of the fridge and down their gullets were perhaps least likely to survive 3 years of study, maybe tampering with natural selection doesn't always turn out well?
 
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Occams Barber

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It was fully formed, so how is that transitional?
Transitional in the sense that it sits as a kind of bridge between the ancient whales with teeth and baleen whales.

I don't understand your 'fully formed' comment. What does 'fully formed' mean and how would that exclude forms we might describe as transitional? BTW, by describing this whale as 'transitional' I accept that anything that ever lived is potentially 'transitional'.
OB
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Transitional in the sense that it sits as a kind of bridge between the ancient whales with teeth and baleen whales.

I don't understand your 'fully formed' comment. What does 'fully formed' mean and how would that exclude forms we might describe as transitional? BTW, by describing this whale as 'transitional' I accept that anything that ever lived is potentially 'transitional'.
OB
I thought I'd throw in the "fully formed" schtick before a creationist piped up. Pre-empting the nonsense :oldthumbsup:

The argument goes that, since it doesn't have 1/2 baleen 1/2 teeth it is not transitional, but is fully formed with teeth only.
 
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royal priest

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Interesting - as the 'stoner' compadres who 'intelligently designed' my food out of the fridge and down their gullets were perhaps least likely to survive 3 years of study, maybe tampering with natural selection doesn't always turn out well?
Alas! total entropy rears it's ugly head once again! Poor stoners
 
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SkyWriting

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"Transitional" between what and what? "Surprising intermediate step" between what and what?
Even the language used indicates that the species are immutable and not subject to changes.
Why would an intermediate step be a surprise?
Who are we surprising and why would a researcher be "surprised" about anything?
What is "surprising" about the conclusions one comes to?
Is the basic assumption that intermediates don't exist?
Hey! Surprise! Intermediates exist! Do these researchers assume the species don't change? How did they come to hold that assumption? In Bible classes?


And here is a totally different problem:
WHO came to the conclusion that this was an "intermediate" step? This happens time after time after time that what people imagine to be an "intermediate" step in their fertile imaginations leads to a dead end or is an often occurring variation that crops up now and then when conditions call for it. Shoehorning a step into an imagined series often fails. Especially with just one example.
 
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Occams Barber

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I thought I'd throw in the "fully formed" schtick before a creationist piped up. Pre-empting the nonsense :oldthumbsup:

The argument goes that, since it doesn't have 1/2 baleen 1/2 teeth it is not transitional, but is fully formed with teeth only.


OK. Thanks BB. The OP title was an intentional reference to our ID/Creationist friends. Incog has already picked up on the "one transitional equals two gaps" line. You've highlighted the "a transitional isn't a transitional unless I agree it's transitional" stuff we see constantly.

What have we forgotten?
OB
 
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Occams Barber

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"Transitional" between what and what? "Surprising intermediate step" between what and what?
Even the language used indicates that the species are immutable and not subject to changes.
Why would an intermediate step be a surprise?
Who are we surprising and why would a researcher be "surprised" about anything?
What is "surprising" about the conclusions one comes to?
Is the basic assumption that intermediates don't exist?
Hey! Surprise! Intermediates exist! Do these researchers assume the species don't change? How did they come to hold that assumption? In Bible classes?


And here is a totally different problem:
WHO came to the conclusion that this was an "intermediate" step? This happens time after time after time that what people imagine to be an "intermediate" step in their fertile imaginations leads to a dead end or is an often occurring variation that crops up now and then when conditions call for it. Shoehorning a step into an imagined series often fails. Especially with just one example.

I think you should have had your cornflakes this morning. Low blood sugar is making you irritable. :(
OB
 
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SkyWriting

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I think you should have had your cornflakes this morning. Low blood sugar is making you irritable. :(
OB
Normally, it's steel-cut oatmeal for me with craisins, but I had to settle for leftover pumpkin pie cheesecake. I'm eating now, thanks for the suggestion.

images
 
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Occams Barber

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Normally, it's steel-cut oatmeal for me with craisins, but I had to settle for leftover pumpkin pie cheesecake. I'm eating now, thanks for the suggestion.

images

Great. You can keep the pumpkin pie, I'll just scoop some of the cheesecake out from underneath. :)

When you're settled I'd like to better understand what you were getting at in your post. I suspect we probably agree in principle. Unfortunately the need to communicate a clear meaning in a few words sometimes means taking shortcuts.

I understand that you lean a little towards the pedantic so if I can clarify anything please ask.
OB
 
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SkyWriting

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Great. You can keep the pumpkin pie, I'll just scoop some of the cheesecake out from underneath. :)

When you're settled I'd like to better understand what you were getting at in your post. I suspect we probably agree in principle. Unfortunately the need to communicate a clear meaning in a few words sometimes means taking shortcuts.

I understand that you lean a little towards the pedantic so if I can clarify anything please ask.
OB

I'm quite lazy. I let scripture speak and leave conversions up to God.
I try not to interfere.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Normally, it's steel-cut oatmeal for me with craisins, but I had to settle for leftover pumpkin pie cheesecake. I'm eating now, thanks for the suggestion.

images
Yummy! Put some in the post for me way down here in Upsidedownland!
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Normally, it's steel-cut oatmeal for me with craisins, but I had to settle for leftover pumpkin pie cheesecake. I'm eating now, thanks for the suggestion.

images
That's not your pie cheesecake and is it? Shame on you for posting somebody else's dessert.
 
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