Oh boy - I wondered what this whole Mar A Lago thing was about

[Hank77]

Well now I was just using the tactics that have been continually thrown at me. When I make a statement in a post the cries for “ where is your evidence “ seem to dominate the responses. I guess maybe many forums operate with a obvious slant to one side.

You're not asking for a source, you know the source and therefore you can retrieve the info yourself. No one needs to list anything you.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That's it? Three code violations? Is that all they got? Hardly more than a few traffic tickets. No big deal. Fake laws anyway. Just some paper hanging issues.

3 statutes. Each of the 100+ classified document is potentially a separate count under section 793.

 

[wing2000]

3 statutes. Each of the 100+ classified document is potentially a separate count under section 793.

...meanwhile, the FBI's hands are tied by a clueless, inexperienced judge.

Last night, the DOJ appealed on these two points:
The new filing from the Justice Department notes that it disagrees with that decision but for the time being is asking the appeals court to intercede on two parts of Cannon’s ruling — one barring criminal investigators from using the seized material while the special master does his work, and another allowing the special master to review the roughly 100 classified documents seized as well as the nonclassified material.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...16/justice-appeals-mar-a-lago-special-master/

 

[DaisyDay]

Could you please list all of those alleged crimes listed on the search warrent? Thanks

@Yttrium has already posted this info twice before in this thread alone. Posts #342 on page 18 and #606 on page 31 so #1039 on page 52 makes the third time.

 

[Tom 1]

US Code 793:

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

US Code 1519:

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

US Code 2071:

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

I heard Trump de-ratified those laws using the same retroactive telepathy he uses to declassify nuclear secrets.

 

[DaisyDay]

Well now I was just using the tactics that have been continually thrown at me. When I make a statement in a post the cries for “ where is your evidence “ seem to dominate the responses. I guess maybe many forums operate with a obvious slant to one side.

One side continuously cites their evidence while the slanty side obfuscates.

 

[JosephZ]

Special Master Dearie has requested proof of declassification from Trump. So far Trump and his legal team have been able to skirt the issue. It's an easy claim to make outside the court room, but when it comes down to having to say it on the record under oath with the penalty of perjury it's a different story.

The court-appointed “special master” reviewing documents the FBI seized during the Aug. 8 search has asked the former president to disclose details about any materials he claims to have declassified before calling them his property.

In a court filing Monday, Trump’s attorneys urged Raymond Dearie, the senior federal judge based in Brooklyn, to drop a component of his plan that includes asking Trump for those details. Disclosing those during the review, Trump’s attorneys said, was not a requirement of U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon’s order appointing Dearie as special master. And, they added, it could harm Trump’s defense against any forthcoming criminal charges.

“[T]he Special Master process will have forced the Plaintiff to fully and specifically disclose a defense to the merits of any subsequent indictment without such a requirement being evident in the District Court’s order,” the attorneys wrote.

...Cannon never pushed Trump or his lawyers to take firm positions on whether he had, as president, actually declassified any of the materials he brought to his estate or designated any as his personal property. Instead, she treated both claims as legitimate possibilities and deputized Dearie to conduct an independent review of the documents.

...“[T]he district court cited portions of Plaintiff’s filings in which he suggested that he could have declassified those documents or purported to designate them as ‘personal’ records … But despite multiple opportunities, Plaintiff has never represented that he in fact took either of those steps—much less supported such a representation with competent evidence,” Justice Department attorneys wrote in Friday’s filing.

Trump’s response in this matter will be the latest opportunity to assert or provide evidence that he did, in fact, make any attempt to declassify or declare as “personal” any of the documents he stored at Mar-a-Lago. Prosecutors and commentators have repeatedly emphasized that despite Trump’s public pronouncements that he took these steps, he has yet to make a similar claim in court, and that even if he had it would have little bearing on potential criminal liability.

Trump discovers he’s not in Cannon-land anymore

 

[Tom 1]

In a court filing Monday, Trump’s attorneys urged Raymond Dearie, the senior federal judge based in Brooklyn, to drop a component of his plan that includes asking Trump for those details.

Ardent Trump fans will still be claiming he declassified everything merely by thinking it, until the end of time.

 

[Pommer]

Special Master Dearie has requested proof of declassification from Trump. So far Trump and his legal team have been able to skirt the issue. It's an easy claim to make outside the court room, but when it comes down to having to say it on the record under oath with the penalty of perjury it's a different story.

The court-appointed “special master” reviewing documents the FBI seized during the Aug. 8 search has asked the former president to disclose details about any materials he claims to have declassified before calling them his property.

In a court filing Monday, Trump’s attorneys urged Raymond Dearie, the senior federal judge based in Brooklyn, to drop a component of his plan that includes asking Trump for those details. Disclosing those during the review, Trump’s attorneys said, was not a requirement of U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon’s order appointing Dearie as special master. And, they added, it could harm Trump’s defense against any forthcoming criminal charges.

“[T]he Special Master process will have forced the Plaintiff to fully and specifically disclose a defense to the merits of any subsequent indictment without such a requirement being evident in the District Court’s order,” the attorneys wrote.

...Cannon never pushed Trump or his lawyers to take firm positions on whether he had, as president, actually declassified any of the materials he brought to his estate or designated any as his personal property. Instead, she treated both claims as legitimate possibilities and deputized Dearie to conduct an independent review of the documents.

...“[T]he district court cited portions of Plaintiff’s filings in which he suggested that he could have declassified those documents or purported to designate them as ‘personal’ records … But despite multiple opportunities, Plaintiff has never represented that he in fact took either of those steps—much less supported such a representation with competent evidence,” Justice Department attorneys wrote in Friday’s filing.

Trump’s response in this matter will be the latest opportunity to assert or provide evidence that he did, in fact, make any attempt to declassify or declare as “personal” any of the documents he stored at Mar-a-Lago. Prosecutors and commentators have repeatedly emphasized that despite Trump’s public pronouncements that he took these steps, he has yet to make a similar claim in court, and that even if he had it would have little bearing on potential criminal liability.

Trump discovers he’s not in Cannon-land anymore

This “legal strategy” reminds me of the Civil War in that when a division came across a river that was too deep to ford or wade through, they’d call up the engineers to build something that would enable them to cross the body-of-water, thus, even though they might not be in any better a position, at least they could move.
Trump’s lawyers are “legal-engineers”, crossing boundaries and going in circles but never stopped completely.

 

[Belk]

Special Master Dearie has requested proof of declassification from Trump. So far Trump and his legal team have been able to skirt the issue. It's an easy claim to make outside the court room, but when it comes down to having to say it on the record under oath with the penalty of perjury it's a different story.

The court-appointed “special master” reviewing documents the FBI seized during the Aug. 8 search has asked the former president to disclose details about any materials he claims to have declassified before calling them his property.

In a court filing Monday, Trump’s attorneys urged Raymond Dearie, the senior federal judge based in Brooklyn, to drop a component of his plan that includes asking Trump for those details. Disclosing those during the review, Trump’s attorneys said, was not a requirement of U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon’s order appointing Dearie as special master. And, they added, it could harm Trump’s defense against any forthcoming criminal charges.

“[T]he Special Master process will have forced the Plaintiff to fully and specifically disclose a defense to the merits of any subsequent indictment without such a requirement being evident in the District Court’s order,” the attorneys wrote.

...Cannon never pushed Trump or his lawyers to take firm positions on whether he had, as president, actually declassified any of the materials he brought to his estate or designated any as his personal property. Instead, she treated both claims as legitimate possibilities and deputized Dearie to conduct an independent review of the documents.

...“[T]he district court cited portions of Plaintiff’s filings in which he suggested that he could have declassified those documents or purported to designate them as ‘personal’ records … But despite multiple opportunities, Plaintiff has never represented that he in fact took either of those steps—much less supported such a representation with competent evidence,” Justice Department attorneys wrote in Friday’s filing.

Trump’s response in this matter will be the latest opportunity to assert or provide evidence that he did, in fact, make any attempt to declassify or declare as “personal” any of the documents he stored at Mar-a-Lago. Prosecutors and commentators have repeatedly emphasized that despite Trump’s public pronouncements that he took these steps, he has yet to make a similar claim in court, and that even if he had it would have little bearing on potential criminal liability.

Trump discovers he’s not in Cannon-land anymore

Trump lawyers: We want a "special master" to look at the documents and see what belongs to Trump

Special Master: Give me the criteria to tell what has been declassified and is now personal so I can make a determination.

Trump lawyers: No! That will give away our supper secret defense against prosecution.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Makes you wonder how many moles the FBI has in your life. Not that my life is that exciting. That mole would be pretty bored.

Is a mole a RAT?

 

[DaisyDay]

Is a mole a RAT?

Have you never heard of naked mole rats?

 

[JosephZ]

Judge Raymond Dearie pushed Trump’s lawyers repeatedly for refusing to back up the former president’s claim that he declassified the highly sensitive national security-related records discovered in his residence.

“You can’t have your cake and eat it,” said Dearie, the “special master” picked by U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon to vet Trump’s effort to reclaim the materials taken by federal investigators.

Trump has argued that the 11,000 documents taken from Mar-a-Lago were rightfully in his possession, including about 100 bearing classification markings that suggest they contain some of the nation’s most closely guarded intelligence.

But Dearie bristled at the effort by Trump’s lawyers to resist his request for proof that Trump actually attempted to declassify any of the 100 documents that the Justice Department recovered from his estate. Without evidence from Trump, Dearie said his only basis to judge the classification level of the records was the fact that they all bear markings designating them as highly sensitive national security secrets — including some that indicate they contain intelligence derived from human sources and foreign intercepts.

Whether any of the records seized from Trump’s home are classified may ultimately be a side issue. The Justice Department has emphasized that the three potential crimes it is investigating don’t hinge on whether the material held at Mar-a-Lago was classified.

Still, Dearie’s comments on classification of the records were particularly notable in light of a separate court filing by Trump, who is urging a federal appeals court to keep in place Cannon’s order blocking the Justice Department from advancing its criminal investigation into the seized records.

In that filing, Trump’s attorneys argued that it was the Justice Department — not Trump — that bore the burden of showing the documents seized last month were classified. Dearie rejected that argument in his courtroom, saying that all that mattered were the markings on the documents.

Special master to Trump’s lawyers: ‘You can't have your cake and eat it too’

 

[DaisyDay]

In that filing, Trump’s attorneys argued that it was the Justice Department — not Trump — that bore the burden of showing the documents seized last month were classified.

That reeks of desperation.

 

[Hank77]

In that filing, Trump’s attorneys argued that it was the Justice Department — not Trump — that bore the burden of showing the documents seized last month were classified. Dearie rejected that argument in his courtroom, saying that all that mattered were the markings on the documents.

They're marked classified that's the authorized method for identifying and knowing if they are classified. They can't possibly expect anyone to take their argument seriously.

 

[JosephZ]

DOJ wins Appeal. Says DOJ can access the records to continue investigation of Trump and prevents the special master from letting Trump's team see them.

When deciding whether to grant a stay pending appeal, we evaluate four factors:

(1) whether the stay applicant has made a strong showing that he is likely to succeed on the merits; (2) whether the applicant will be irreparably injured absent a stay; (3) whether issuance of the stay will substantially injure the other parties interested in the proceeding; and (4) where the public interest lies.”

After considering the four factors here, we conclude that the United States is entitled to a stay.

A. The United States has established a substantial likelihood of success on the merits.

B. The United States would suffer irreparable injury in the absence of a stay.

C. Plaintiff has not shown that he will suffer a substantial injury as a result of the limited stay.

Largely for reasons we have already discussed, we conclude that he would not.

First, as we have explained, Plaintiff does not have a possessory interest in the documents at issue, so he does not suffer a cognizable harm if the United States reviews documents he neither owns nor has a personal interest in.

Second, we find unpersuasive Plaintiff’s insistence that he would be harmed by a criminal investigation. “Bearing the discomfiture and cost of a prosecution for crime even by an innocent person is one of the painful obligations of citizenship.”

Third, because of the nature of the classified materials at issue here and based on the record, we have no reason to expect that the United States’ use of these records imposes the risk of disclosure to the United States of Plaintiff’s privileged information.

Given the limited scope of the stay—applying to only approximately one-hundred classified documents—we conclude that Plaintiff has not shown he will be substantially injured by a stay.

D. The public interest favors a stay

For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents.

In sum, given the long-recognized 'compelling interest in protecting... the secrecy of information important to our national security,' we conclude that the United States would suffer irreparable harm from the district court’s restrictions.

We now come to the fourth and final factor: “where the public interest lies.” The documents at issue contain information “the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security.” It is self-evident that the public has a strong interest in ensuring that the storage of the classified records did not result in “exceptionally grave damage to the national security.” Ascertaining that necessarily involves reviewing the documents, determining who had access to them and when, and deciding which (if any) sources or methods are compromised.

For these reasons, we conclude that the public interest favors a stay.

CONCLUSION

For the reasons we have explained, we GRANT the stay pending appeal. The district court order is STAYED to the extent it enjoins the government’s use of the classified documents and requires the government to submit the classified documents to the special master for review.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000

 

[SimplyMe]

DOJ wins Appeal. Says DOJ can access the records to continue investigation of Trump and prevents the special master from letting Trump's team see them.

When deciding whether to grant a stay pending appeal, we evaluate four factors:

(1) whether the stay applicant has made a strong showing that he is likely to succeed on the merits; (2) whether the applicant will be irreparably injured absent a stay; (3) whether issuance of the stay will substantially injure the other parties interested in the proceeding; and (4) where the public interest lies.”

After considering the four factors here, we conclude that the United States is entitled to a stay.

A. The United States has established a substantial likelihood of success on the merits.

B. The United States would suffer irreparable injury in the absence of a stay.

C. Plaintiff has not shown that he will suffer a substantial injury as a result of the limited stay.

Largely for reasons we have already discussed, we conclude that he would not.

First, as we have explained, Plaintiff does not have a possessory interest in the documents at issue, so he does not suffer a cognizable harm if the United States reviews documents he neither owns nor has a personal interest in.

Second, we find unpersuasive Plaintiff’s insistence that he would be harmed by a criminal investigation. “Bearing the discomfiture and cost of a prosecution for crime even by an innocent person is one of the painful obligations of citizenship.”

Third, because of the nature of the classified materials at issue here and based on the record, we have no reason to expect that the United States’ use of these records imposes the risk of disclosure to the United States of Plaintiff’s privileged information.

Given the limited scope of the stay—applying to only approximately one-hundred classified documents—we conclude that Plaintiff has not shown he will be substantially injured by a stay.

D. The public interest favors a stay

For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings

Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents.

In sum, given the long-recognized 'compelling interest in protecting... the secrecy of information important to our national security,' we conclude that the United States would suffer irreparable harm from the district court’s restrictions.

We now come to the fourth and final factor: “where the public interest lies.” The documents at issue contain information “the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security.” It is self-evident that the public has a strong interest in ensuring that the storage of the classified records did not result in “exceptionally grave damage to the national security.” Ascertaining that necessarily involves reviewing the documents, determining who had access to them and when, and deciding which (if any) sources or methods are compromised.

For these reasons, we conclude that the public interest favors a stay.

CONCLUSION

For the reasons we have explained, we GRANT the stay pending appeal. The district court order is STAYED to the extent it enjoins the government’s use of the classified documents and requires the government to submit the classified documents to the special master for review.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000183-625b-da48-a3e3-e2ff83050000

To be clear, the DoJ has not won their appeal, they were instead granted a stay until the appeal is heard and decided. Of course, being granted a stay means that the appeals court believes you will win your appeal, once it is heard, based on the initial brief but it is not guaranteed.

 

[JosephZ]

To be clear, the DoJ has not won their appeal, they were instead granted a stay until the appeal is heard and decided.

This was an appeal by the DOJ to Judge Cannon's ruling, so the DOJ did win on its appeal. It's final unless Trump seeks an appeal to the full 11th Circuit Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court, which he most likely will. Either way, it was a major defeat for Trump and the DOJ can immediately resume their criminal investigation without a special master.

 

[Hans Blaster]

This was an appeal by the DOJ to Judge Cannon's ruling, so the DOJ did win on its appeal. It's final unless Trump seeks an appeal to the full 11th Circuit Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court, which he most likely will. Either way, it was a major defeat for Trump and the DOJ can immediately resume their criminal investigation without a special master.

It's a "stay" (by the 11th circuit) of an injunction (by J. Cannon) on the DOJ accessing the classified documents and requiring them to be shared with the special master process.

As a consequence, DOJ has again full access to the classified materials (just as it did before Trump's suit) and those documents will not be part of the special master process.

 

[JosephZ]

It's a "stay" (by the 11th circuit) of an injunction (by J. Cannon) on the DOJ accessing the classified documents and requiring them to be shared with the special master process.

This is true, and since the DOJ had originally requested a partial stay from Judge Cannon's injunction which was denied, and latter appealed to the 11th Circuit Court which granted the DOJ's request, then that's considered a win on appeal for the DOJ.