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Oh boy - I wondered what this whole Mar A Lago thing was about

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by HTacianas, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. Pommer

    Pommer CoPcEtiC SkEpTic Supporter

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    Next we’ll be hearing that people with illnesses are healed if his shadow should fall across them! Glorious!
    Totally not a cult.
     
  2. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    Well, a lot of people get their news exclusively from the major left wing sources and parrot that news. For years they were told that the anonymous sources behind the hoaxes against Trump were verified when in fact the information was fabricated. I wouldn't call them a cult, although a lot of embraced the left wing portrayal of "climate change" as almost a religion. They are just a lot of followers who don't check facts for themselves and don't ask questions.
     
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  3. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    There are no nuclear secrets kept by Trump, you're falling for another hoax just before an election. Soon they will go with the Republicans want to eliminate Medicare and Social Security. Trump has never even had a speeding ticket.
     
  5. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

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    Oh? I must of missed where Trump or his representatives documented this. I eagerly await your post showing evidence of your assertions.
     
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  6. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    Have you documented that you don't have any nuclear secrets?
     
  7. comana

    comana Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No doubt there are many people in prison who never had a speeding ticket. Does he even have a driver’s license? Also, you, like us, have not seen the documents seized, therefore you cannot assert what was or wasn’t in those boxes.
     
  8. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

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    So your claims are so much empty air compared to the documented claims from the FBI? Thought as much.
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Actually, whether he took classified documents is not immediately relevant. That wasn't even at issue in the search warrant.

    He actually had no authority to remove any government documents. That they found classified documents is (or would be, once such evidence is produced) might be issues for additional charges.
     
  10. Arcangl86

    Arcangl86 Newbie

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    One of the laws cited in the warrant was violation of the Espionage Act. That act doesn't speak of classification, but that's because it's older then the executive classification scheme. It does however speak of " information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States". You would know better then me, but isn't one of the primary criteria of classifying information the potential damage it can cause to the US?
     
  11. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Oh?

    I don't know why people think this....

    Superficially it makes sense, but given consideration, it's hard to prop up.

    For starters, people leave federal facilities with classified information all the time. There's rules around it sure....but they can be changed at whim by the president, for just himself, for one department, in exactly one instance, it literally can work that way.

    The person who can decide these things is actually the president.

    So the idea that he wouldn't be able to just grab some briefs he needs to read on his way wherever....or there's someone else's approval required (so long as we're talking about executive branch documents) isn't obvious to me. In fact, I'm really certain this happens all the time under every president.

    Why do you think he wouldn't be able to take documents out of the white house?

    Please don't cite some rules that are set by the president.
     
  12. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    I mean, if the worry is that he would potentially have access to information from during the 4 years when he was president is the concern here....

    Yeah...so does every president. The only way to ensure that information is never misused is to kill every 2nd term president upon leaving office.

    I get people don't trust him, I get people believe he's crooked or dangerous, and I'm sure some people simply don't see him as a former president....

    On top of all that, I'm certain a lot of people don't want him to run again. I don't either.

    The thing is though, none of those are justification for any of this. This has to be something bigger than the documents themselves.

    We have the counter example from very very recently....Hillary Clinton.

    It's not a question of "if she had classified information at home". She definitely did. She admitted to it. She had zero ability to declassify documents....or change rules around their distribution. When asked to turn these things over....she wiped her hard drives electronically as best she could and then took a hammer to them.

    The FBI director said something to the effect of "no reasonable prosecutor would press charges" but he would "fire her" if she were an agent of his.

    Trump’s actually in a less egregious position because he was the final authority on matters of classification in the executive branch. People act like he should be executed for something that so far....appears less criminal than what Hillary did. I don't recall any democrats on here saying she should have to even drop from the race....let alone face charges.
     
  13. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Aka whatsboutism....aka the same thing everyone on here does most of the time.

    It's a problem of consistency. I genuinely didn't care that Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted. I know she violated the law and policies probably 1000s of times over her time running the State Department. I know that by her own admission to violating these rules and the subsequent attempt of covering them up....it would have been completely justifiable to throw her in prison for the rest of her life.

    Trump didn't do that though....despite calling for it during his campaign. He appears to have let it slide. Ultimately, if she wanted to use that information for illegal purposes or personal gain....she didn't need to have her own copies. She's reasonably bright. I'm certain she remembers plenty of valuable information. There's no evidence she did any of that though...to my knowledge.

    As president, Trump had access to like 100 times that information? 1000 times? He didn't take all of his intel through an unsecured private email (though I remember some people around him had in some limited manner)....he had some documents that may or may not have some value....I'm assuming he had legitimate access to them. As the final authority on such matters...it's hard to think of what exactly would be an instance where he'd be in violation.

    So that's the problem. If you weren't howling over Hillary violating standards she was supposed to follow....you really shouldn't change your position in this instance. If it's just documents and not some misuse of them that amounts to a crime....this shouldn't result in even any charges.

    If Trump used the information for personal gain or at risk of national security....that's something else. The problem is that people will need to see that. They won't believe in a document with a bunch of blacked out lines.

    To use the FBI, DOJ (who already has a corrupt reputation under Biden) or literally any agency for the purpose of gaining office or removing political opponents is....arguably....the most tyrannical thing I've seen either party do in my lifetime.

    It's flirting with civil war.
     
  14. SimplyMe

    SimplyMe Senior Veteran

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    Actually, you don't know that -- you make a lot of assumptions there. What we know is that she used a private email server rather than a government email that was provided by the State Department. From what I recall seeing from the FBI, there is no claim that Ms. Clinton sent any emails that were classified (at least at the time she sent them). Instead, the FBI stated that she received emails that included classified information.

    Next, I'm not aware of any claims by the FBI that she tried to cover up her "crimes." Yes, claimed not to believe she had classified information on her servers -- something that proved to be false -- but so far as we know she actually believed there was no classified information.

    As for the "deleted" emails, I've stated that was wrong -- she should not have wiped her servers. However, she complied with what was asked for; she was asked for a copy of all her work emails from her time as Secretary of State. So far as I've seen, she turned all those emails -- despite Republican claims to the contrary. The FBI, to ensure they received all the relevant emails, got copies of emails sent from the State Department to Ms. Clinton's email address, as well as from individuals who sent emails to Ms. Clinton (such as the warrant for Rep. Weiner's laptop). The FBI never claimed Ms. Clinton did not turn over all relevant emails, never claimed it was a crime she broke.

    And as I've shown, this if false. Pres. Trump ordered his AG to set up a DoJ investigation of Ms. Clinton. AG Sessions appointed a Federal Prosecutor, at Trump's urging, to re-investigate Ms. Clinton for everything she had been accused of (Uranium One, Benghazi, the Clinton Foundation, her emails, etc). The prosecutor's investigation lasted all through the Trump presidency, under multiple AGs, only officially ending (though the investigations ended sooner) when Trump left office; the prosecutor could find nothing to charge Hillary with.

    Which, again, shows your assumptions appear to be false -- a prosecutor spending all that time looking at the prior investigations and re-investigating as necessary and could find nothing to charge her with. If there had been actual crimes found then she would have been prosecuted.

    First, again, my recollection is that some emails had classified information in them -- not classified documents -- that had been sent to her from subordinates who appear to have thought the email was secure. As I understand it -- and if you can show I'm wrong I'd love to see it -- these were classified at the lowest level, "Confidential" -- with likely even few documents, if any, that were even classified as "Secret."

    Pres. Trump had information classified as not just "Top Secret" but "Top Secret/SCI." And, no, he appears not to have been the final authority on classification of these documents. More to the point, it would appear these documents were shipped when he was leaving office, when he no longer had any reason to possess these documents -- much less remove them from the White House or any declassification ability for any classified documents.

    And before you claim that people take out classified information out of government buildings all the time, that is true of "Secret" and below documents -- it rarely happens with "Top Secret/SCI" and if they are removed, they are very securely moved/stored (such as the stereotypical briefcase handcuffed to the person moving it).

    I'm not changing my position at all. I'm not going to claim if Ms. Clinton should have been charged or not; I do find it was wrong for her to have a private email server and for destroying her server hard drives -- those should have been retained if needed by the FBI. I have to trust that since the Trump AG appointed prosecutor, John Huber, as well as any of Trump's AGs, claim there was nothing to prosecute her that they were telling the truth.

    As for former Pres. Trump, I'm willing to wait until the FBI/DoJ determine if he should be prosecuted. I do know that it was a crime for him to remove these boxes, even non-classified Presidential records, from the White House and not turn them over to the National Archives. Of course, he shouldn't be prosecuted for that.

    As for the Top Secret documents that were removed, I'll wait to reserve judgment until we see if charges are filed and what those charges are.
     
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  15. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    If the reports had ever been accurate Trump would have been convicted of something by now but 5 years of fishing and nothing to show for it.
     
  16. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Oh and what are those "safeguards" that limit the President in his abilities to declassify information?
     
  17. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Not really.

    I understand it's been a few years....but this isn't quite correct.

    I recall that she only used her private email.


    Right....I'm actually certain that she sent out classified information but since everyone she's corresponding with is using a government address and likely following the rules, they would have been deleted from the server after a fixed time.

    I understand that a lot of people don't understand in any real sense how the federal government works.

    She lied. All classified information is marked even in email.

    She's the head of the State Department, she has detailed information on the movement of government officials in foreign countries....and that's the basic sort of classified information she would be receiving every day. I would estimate someone in her position gets at least 300 emails a day, and it would be extremely generous to imagine that maybe only 10% contain some level of classified information.

    What can we rationally infer from that?

    It's baffling that you can write this sentence after writing the previous one.

    She used ,if I remember correctly, bleachbit, acidburn, and other data wiping programs to destroy unknown numbers of emails. Then the physical components were smashed with hammers.

    I have no doubt she turned over emails of a very insignificant and inconsequential nature.


    Which is unsurprising.

    Trump says he's not interested in pursuing case against Clinton

    He did say in 2016 after all, that he wouldn't pursue anything against her....to avoid appearing divisive....for the good of the country.

    Now, I guess you're claiming this was a lie and he had people digging through her private life the entire time....yet I don't recall any FBI raids on her house.

    Got any evidence of this supposed investigation?


    Again, a remarkable statement. The definitive feature of a classified document, file, brief, Intel, etc is the fact that it contains classified information. If it wasn't properly labeled as such, one could excuse the person receiving it....but I've never seen that happen.

    Now, there's a exception to this called PII or Personel Identifying Information. A document can contain this....and not be classified, but there are still rules for that sort of information that would result in her justifiably being prosecuted for mishandling.

    And you believe this???

    Think about what you're asking me for....if I have evidence of classified information being shared in violation of law or policy under Hillary during her appointment to the State Department....you'd like it if I shared that with you.

    Because I don't mind risking my career or life or perhaps I prefer to live in Moscow just to prove a point to internet strangers.

    I'm not claiming I was standing over her shoulder when she opened her emails.

    I'm simply aware of how these things work.

    Would you like to take a guess at how many people have Top Secret clearance or SCI clearance?

    Who does?

    If he wasn't president at the time he took possession of the documents....You're correct. I don't know who would possibly send him these things in Biden's administration......but if that's what you think happened, I'd wonder why.

    This is a chart of the State Department.

    750px-US_Dept_of_State_Organizational_Chart.jpg


    That big square at the tippy top is where Hillary sat.

    Now, I'm certain that some of those offices have almost no classified information. Many have some. A few will have more classified information than not.

    So when I say thousands of classified emails....I'm really just trying to be generous. I'm giving what has to be a lowball estimate. An entry level person at the bottom of this Department probably gets on average 10% classified information.

    Hillary wouldn't even be bothering with minor issues. It would be more realistic to imagine half of what she saw was classified.

    They do.

    ....


    Do you like movies?


    I'm not going by Huber....I'm going by Comey.

    He didn't say there was nothing they could prosecute her on. He said he wouldn't.

    No harm in waiting to see the evidence.
     
  18. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Is it?

    To my knowledge, nuclear codes aren't held solely by the president. An attempt to share them would likely result in his imprisonment as the other party holding codes would require it.


    Well, as far as the CIA goes...I would imagine the safeguard is the CIA itself. The president can request the names, and the CIA would ask why, and if there's no need to know or suspicion the president intends to disclose that information.....he would probably receive a sheet heavily redacted that lacked the information requested.

    At that point, before the director gets replaced, I'd hope that Congress moves quickly to remove the president.

    If the president wants to replace them....the Director should make every effort to destroy that information.

    That's an ideal though. In reality, the Director has a family and it's easier to invent a reason to burn a foreign agent than quit his job and find a new one. The entire list would require a pretty significant amount of time....and unfortunately for the director, it would be self defeating. He would do better to refuse, because arguably, no one would work under him afterwards.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  19. Vylo

    Vylo Stick with the King!

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    There is a procedure and format you must complete to declassify items, and some items, like Nuclear weapons information cannot be declassified by the president alone, the department of energy and department of defense. If neither of them agree to declassification on nuclear weapons information, it remains classified.
     
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  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Presidential records are the property of the United States government and are administered by the National Archives. So, all presidential papers, materials and records in the custody of the National Archives, whether donated, seized or governed by the Presidential Records Act, are owned by the federal government.
     
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