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OEC (old earth creation)

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JohnR7, Aug 7, 2003.

  1. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    I have seen surveys where a lot of Christians claim to be YEC. This is difficult for me to understand. It seems to me with science making the claims they do, for the age of the earth that the logical thing for the average person to do is to believe that the "days" in the week of creaton were ages of an unknown length of time. That pretty much goes along with what science feels took place from their study of the natural record. So that from what we currently know, there does not seem to be any conflict between the natural record and what Moses tells us about creation in the first chapter of Genesis.

    Of course we know that Adam and Eve were very recent, and did not come along until 6000 years ago. Again, this pretty much lines up with what science tells us, that civilized man came on the scene about 6000 to 10,000 years ago. Only of course they feel man evolved, rather than that God created man. Or some believe in theist evolution.

    My question is, other than the YEC 24 hour day people. Is there anyone that has any problem with the OEC theory of creation?
     
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  2. the_malevolent_milk_man

    the_malevolent_milk_man Well-Known Member

    +132
    Atheist
    Single
    If the creation days were longer than 24 hours it still poses several problems

    1- God created plants before seasons, animals, and the sun. If everything was created with millions of years of time between these events then plants that rely on seasons and insects for pollination wouldn't have been able to reproduce. If they later evolved then that would kill the "everything is god's special creation" idea.

    2- God creates all sea animals in one day and all land animals in the next. This would mean that no new sea creatures could appear after land animals appear. So for those who liberally interpret to fit with evolution this passage slams the door in their face. Especially funny that the KJV says whales were created with the other sea creatures and evolution says they started as land animals, a very direct conflict.

    3- Every animal eating plants also has a conflict. The fossil record clearly shows animals adapting to eat meat long before man appeared and animals started eating each other. Eating grass with nothing but pointed canines is as effecient as trying to puncture the throat of your prey with blunt molars. If animals didn't eat each other until after the fall of man then there would be no big, sharp, pointy teeth in the fossil record.

    4- What of carnivorous plants? They had these elaborate killing mechanisms for millions of years for what purpose? Anticipating the fall of man and the day they would be allowed to eat insects?

    5- God didn't create the mist around the earth to water his plants until after everything was created, including man. The land would have been a parched wasteland if it had recieved no water for 4+billion years.


    Trying to mix Genesis and science causes more problems than it solves...
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Of course he created plants before He created the animals, what would the animals eat if there were no plants here? Also we know that the plants could have been created before the seasons, because there were plants when northern america was a tropical zone. But He could not have created them without a sun, so the sun must have been the light that God created on the very first day.

    Do you mean the Bible falsifys the theory of evolution? Isn't that what christians have been saying all along?

    I really have not studed much about sharp pointy teeth. Animal in the Garden of Eden would be considered domestic by todays standards. They did not devour one another. But I am sure life would have been different outside of the garden of Eden.

    If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then Eden would have expanded to fill up the whole world. Even now, when God restores this world, all of the earth will be as Eden was, before the fall. The animals will no longer devour one another.

    Isaiah 11:6
    "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.

    Isaiah 11:9
    They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
    As the waters cover the sea.
     
  4. ifriit

    ifriit PRABOB!

    978
    +8
    John, perhaps I can explain this to you, as Milkman Dan's response was a bit inaccurate.

    The issue is whales: we have evidence that they are decended from land animals. This directly contradicts the creationist theory that all sea creatures came before land animals.

    However, if whales did not descend from land animals, this would not contradict evolution. Evolutionary theory does not require this fact, and it is merely confirming evidence. If it actually did not exist, evolution would be unaffected; that it does disproves the special creationist theory.

    If you'd like to insist that the evidence doesn't exist, I suppose we can't stop you, but it surely doesn't help your case.
     
  5. the_malevolent_milk_man

    the_malevolent_milk_man Well-Known Member

    +132
    Atheist
    Single
    Yeowch, talk about reading half a thought and chopping up sentances.

    The anti/pro evolution is the result of an OEC interpretation.

    Anti evolution-
    Whales are specifically cited as being created with the sea animals, no possible way they could have evolved.

    Pro evolution-
    numbers 1,3,4 all imply some sort of evolution. Plants adapting to eat insects, animals developing pointy teeth to eat each other, and plants evolving into a symbiotic relationship to seasons and animals when they were created in an enviroment with neither.




    Did you read the part about how some plants can't reproduce without the help of animals? It is impossible for these plants to reproduce without animals, they would have died out long before animals were created.

    "Also we know that the plants could have been created before the seasons, because there were plants when northern america was a tropical zone. "

    Uh, what does this have to do with anything let alone seasons? Climate != season.

    "But He could not have created them without a sun, so the sun must have been the light that God created on the very first day."

    Missed my point entirely, the sun is tied to seasons since seasons are part of the earths orbit around the sun. The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. I dunno where the light he creates on the first day comes from, the bible doesn't specify.
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    As you say the sea creatures "came before land animals". So any so called evidence that you have to suggest otherwise is falsified by the truth as we find it in the word of God.
     
  7. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Instructions:
    Make a claim.
    ignore falsifacation.
    Repeat till everyone ignores you.

    Adam and Eve 6000 years ago, is not in line with science. The fact that you have ignored all the evidence that people have given you, doesnt make it go away, it does make people not want to reply after they have given the information two or three times and it has been ignored.
     
  8. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
    10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
    12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
    Was the fourth day of creation approximately twenty-four hours long? [answer]
    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
    18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    the sun is definitely created later.
     
  9. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    what about parasitic fungus? those should come about after animals, but he doesn't illuatrate any examples of fungus creation at all, never mind after the animals.
     
  10. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    in fact he missed out three whole kingdoms: prokaryotes, eukaryotes and fungi. are we to conclude that none of these things exist?
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    There was light on the first day. Now where do you think that light came from, if it did not come from the sun?

    I think what you forget is how simple the Bible is to understand. So simple a child could understand it. In fact in our sunday school we begin to teach them at one year of age. At that age they esp. like the music and the marching around and making motions with their hands.
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Married
    Conclude what you want. But if the cause is not listed, then I would go looking for the effect. Perhaps these things are a part of something that is listed. For example, before we had animals, we had to have oxygen. So there were plants to create the oxygen, long before the animals came along. When things happen in stages, then something has to happen in the stage before, to allow the next event to occur.
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    opps
     
  14. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Married
    You need to study up a little bit more on those plants. They were a bit more simple and basic than the plants you see today. This was before the Garden in Eden, and before there was a man or a women to appreciate a delicate little flowering plant.
     
  15. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +304
    Unitarian
    So are you saying that plants have evolved a lot since their original creation?

    The Frumious Bandersnatch
     
  16. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Married
    Wow, I thought everyone that posted here knew me. I guess we can not assume anything. I do not even believe in micro evolution. I do not believe in ANY of man's evolutionary theory. I believe in the Bible, and I believe in the word of God.

    I believe that God created each biodiverse ecology system unique onto itself. In the case of Eden and the Garden of Eden, His plan was for Eden and it's entire Biodiverse Ecology to expand and to fill the world. But Adam and Eve fell into sin.

    Rather than to destroy everything and start all over again, God came up with a plan of redemption and restoration. The day well come when this fallen world will be restored and the Earth will become a Paradise. Not only will the Earth be restored, but also we believe the entire solar system will be restored.

    Outside of Eden the next ecology sytem that was comparable was the Great White Mountains in Lebanon. It is known today for it's skiing industry. They do have a ecology minded government there, and some of the Great Cedar Tree's of Lebanon that we read about 3000 years ago are still there. Some of them are 2000 years old.
     

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  17. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +304
    Unitarian
    So John are you saying that God is continually creating new species? Do you think He sent the asteroid that helped finish off the dinosaurs and then started creating large eocine mammals and then wiped them out and created the next set of animals and so on? Whenever new species appear do you think that God just popped them into being?

    Why do you think God created humans with the same endogenous retroviral insertions and pseudo genes with the same errors as chimpanzees?

    How do you explain the fossil succesion from mammal like reptiles to mammals?
    http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm
    Did God create each on in series just to make it look like they had evolved?

    The Frumious Bandersnatch

    The Frumious Bandesnatch
     
  18. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    John, is the 1st image there a distraction? it is an excellent edbate tactic if it is, though I do believe it could be some form of logical fallacy.
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Not really, Eden had Eve. A biodiverse ecology is a whole ecology. We only read about Lebanon in the Bible, but we read about Ethiopia in the Bible and science talks about it. Moses was married to a women from Ethiopia. The Queen of Sheba was from this area. This is said to be the crown jewel of Africa. Oh, wait! I got one from Ethiopia also :)
     

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  20. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    You see, the problem is that science has knowledge, but no understanding. You will have to seek after widsom and understanding if you want to understand. But up to now all you seem interested in is to obtain knowledge. Not your fault I am sure, that is a lot the way our education system works in this country. It is going to take you time to grasp the concept, but I think that you will get there.
     
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