Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

[Kermos]

Just because the Bible does not state specifically: "Man has free will" does not mean man does not have free will, just as the Bible does not specifically say: "Man does not have free will" does not mean man has free will.
Just showing insentiences where man does not exercise free will does not mean man in some insentiences does not exercise free will. To proof "man does not have free will" requires either the bible specifically saying: "Under all situations man does not have free will" or you have to show there are no examples in scripture which might suggest man did exercise free will.

If the Bible does not state that you have a free will, bling, then you do not have a free will; otherwise, you are adding "free will" to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

The Bible DOES state that a person cannot choose Lord Jesus, for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

 

[Kermos]

Oh, they do answer. But not with actual Scripture that supports their claims. That's what I meant. They simply think their verses mean what they claim. They don't.

Well, I have issues with Arminians as well. They believe salvation be lost, all without any verse saying that.

This verse was spoken to 11 saved disciples. It wasn't referring to salvation.

Focusing on your final two sentences.

Last sentence first, where you wrote "It wasn't referring to salvation" is wrong for Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation). "Out of the world" means into the heavenly, that is, Jesus' realm.

Now, to your first sentence, "This verse was spoken to 11 saved disciples" which is you trying to restrict the audience, but you are wrong again. Here are SIX ways that you are wrong post #8 in this thread.

The six points were addressed in this thread already, and the original post (OP) argues at the failure of free-willians follow through.

The words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation) are to ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME.

The only issue in election is "to be chosen for WHAT". And salvation is NEVER the subject of election.

Elect and chosen are the same thing, KJV uses elect and NASB uses chosen; furthermore, salvation is the subject per "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation).

Yes, salvation is by God's choice alone. And the Bible tells us clearly whom God chooses to save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It couldn't be more clear.

God's choice for salvation is believers only.

Taking Corinthians out of context fails to help the free will position. Clearly, people in the world cannot know God "since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him", so it takes an act of God (1) cause a perosn to have faith (John 6:29), (2) cause a person to be born from above (John 3:3-8), (3) cause a person to good works (John 3:21), and (4) to choose a person unto salvation and sanctification (John 15:16-19).

! Corinthians 1:21 needs to be consiered with "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The natural man is not pleasing to God (Romans 8:8), so the man without the act of God mentioned above (John 6:29, John 3:3-8, John 3:21, and John 15:16-19), is not pleasing to God.

 

[bling]

If the Bible does not state that you have a free will, bling, then you do not have a free will; otherwise, you are adding "free will" to scripture.

Just because the Bible does not say anything about a trinity does not mean: “the Father, son and Holy Spirit are not a trinity.

I could say the same thing back at you: The Bible does not say: “Humans do not have free will so we must have some limited free will”.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

The Bible DOES state that a person cannot choose Lord Jesus, for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

Yes, God choose everyone that is at the banquet to be there or they would not be at the banquet if He did not choose them, but that does not mean others were not invited and refused the invitation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Focusing on your final two sentences.

Last sentence first, where you wrote "It wasn't referring to salvation" is wrong for Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation). "Out of the world" means into the heavenly, that is, Jesus' realm.

John 15:3 says, " You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.". Do you understand what Jesus meant here? "Clean" means saved. v.19 is in context with v.3. So what is clear is that Jesus chose saved disciples.

Now, to your first sentence, "This verse was spoken to 11 saved disciples" which is you trying to restrict the audience, but you are wrong again. Here are SIX ways that you are wrong post #8 in this thread.

My comment was referring to John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

And from v.3 we KNOW that all of the 11 disciples were already clean (saved). How do I know there were only 11 disciples? Judas left the passover mean in ch 13.

The six points were addressed in this thread already, and the original post (OP) argues at the failure of free-willians follow through.

No, the OP only makes a claim about failure of free will. There is nothing in the OP that proves its claim.

The words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation) are to ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME.

I just refuted your claim above.

But since you seem to persist in spite of being proven wrong, how do you explain John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Elect and chosen are the same thing, KJV uses elect and NASB uses chosen; furthermore, salvation is the subject per "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 includes salvation).

Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure.

Have you ever done a deep dive into ALL of the verses that mention the noun (ekloge), the verb (eklegomai), or the adjective (eklektos)? I have. And NONE of them link election with salvation.

Taking Corinthians out of context fails to help the free will position.

Well, you're going to have to prove your claim here. How did I use v.21 out of context? I showed a verse that tells us WHO God is pleased to save; believers. So you've proven nothing, your claims are in error.

! Corinthians 1:21 needs to be consiered with "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Your statement about v.21 is way off the track. v.21 isn't about free will anyway. It's about WHO God chooses to save. And the answer is believers.

 

[TibiasDad]

The author says a lot of words, trying to say: “Since it does not specifically say he does have free will, Adam and Eve must not have free will”, but lack of clear support is not support for the opposite.

This was my thought when I followed the link given; my first reaction after scrolling through who knows how many pages, was of Jesus's words in Matthew 6:7 about the pagan practices in prayer, saying: "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." I think this principle applies to our argumentation, teaching and preaching as well. The foundational truths are always simply stated. I remember an anecdotal story of John Wesley allegedly sitting a five year old down and reading his sermon to him saying, "if I say something you don't understand, stop me!" Now I'm not certain of the veracity of this story, but it has a good point. The Kiss method is what helps me, keep it short and simple!

(A secondary thought arose as well, from Shakespeare: Much ado about nothing!)

Doug

 

[Kermos]

Just because the Bible does not say anything about a trinity does not mean: “the Father, son and Holy Spirit are not a trinity.

I believe in one eternal God, existing as three distinct and equal persons being Love (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned], Romans 1:7 [Father], John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14], John 15:26 [Spirit], 1 John 4:8 [Love]).

Behold, I do not need to use the word trinity.

Your first argument is non-sequitor.

I could say the same thing back at you: The Bible does not say: "Humans do not have free will so we must have some limited free will".

Yes, God choose everyone that is at the banquet to be there or they would not be at the banquet if He did not choose them, but that does not mean others were not invited and refused the invitation.

If you say, as you wrote "Humans do not have free will so we must have some limited free will" then you are adding "limited free will" to the Word of God.

Your second argument is non-sequitor.

Now, on to your third argument. No person can choose to be at the banquet as well as salvation as well as sanctification, per the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

Your third argument, which appears to be about people rejecting Jesus, is non-sequitor.

Let's returnt to your second argument where you attempt to add "limited free will" to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

The Bible DOES state that a person cannot choose Lord Jesus, for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

 

[Kermos]

John 15:3 says, " You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.". Do you understand what Jesus meant here? "Clean" means saved. v.19 is in context with v.3. So what is clear is that Jesus chose saved disciples.

Lord Jesus, the Word of God (John 1:14), saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) refers back to when the Word is heard by we believers, His sheep (John 10:27-30), thus He cleanses us believers (John 15:3) who He chooses (John 15:16).

Lord Jesus saves all His disciples in all time. No disciple chooses Jesus because Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

My comment was referring to John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

And from v.3 we KNOW that all of the 11 disciples were already clean (saved). How do I know there were only 11 disciples? Judas left the passover mean in ch 13.

You disregard both Matthias and Joseph mentioned in point number one of post #8 of this thread referenced in the very post to which you replied. This puts more than the 11 Apostles with Jesus when John 15:16 was spoken.

This goes right back to the original post in this thread. You free willians just toss scripture aside and restate your deceptive position.

No, the OP only makes a claim about failure of free will. There is nothing in the OP that proves its claim.

I just refuted your claim above.

But since you seem to persist in spite of being proven wrong, how do you explain John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

Lord Jesus did not say that the Twelve are the ONLY persons that Jesus chooses in John 6:70.

Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure.

You claim Judas was saved even though he was the son of perdition! You really do not know the Bible.

Judas was NOT there when Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, which includes salvation).

Have you ever done a deep dive into ALL of the verses that mention the noun (ekloge), the verb (eklegomai), or the adjective (eklektos)? I have. And NONE of them link election with salvation.

You have just now proved INCIDENT EXAMPLE ONE of the original post true.

You wrote "And NONE of them link election with salvation".

Apparently, you have not looked at Lord Jesus' words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) because the word "chose" is a variant of eklego.

Wait, I've already brought to your attention that Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) in correspondence in this thread.

Well, you're going to have to prove your claim here. How did I use v.21 out of context? I showed a verse that tells us WHO God is pleased to save; believers. So you've proven nothing, your claims are in error.

Your statement about v.21 is way off the track. v.21 isn't about free will anyway. It's about WHO God chooses to save. And the answer is believers.

1 Corinthians 1:21 does not state a believer becomes a believer by human free will, and I'm glad you acknowledge such.

1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised".

Therefore, the believer mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:21 must of necessity be born of the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8) to spiritually appraise the things of the Spirit of God.

Additionally, the unbeliever mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:21 must of necessity be not born of the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8) becuase the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the unbeliever.

Essentially, based on what you've written, I ascertain that your assertion about 1 Corinthians 1:21 tries to impute a meaning upon the text that does not exist, and that non-existent meaning is that (1) a person causes the person to believe so that (2) God saves the person.

1 Corinthians 1:21 states that "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe"

We need to look at belief/faith and "believe".

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 1:21 and Paul wrote Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 states that "For by grace you have been saved through belief; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them".

See that "saved through belief". Paul wrote that grace and salvation and belief are all the gift of God!

Behold that Lord Jesus defines belief/faith with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Powerfully, Lord Jesus tells us that the work of God is for a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. Jesus defines belief/faith right there as the work of God.

God saves believers; furthermore, God creates believers (John 3:3-8, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 15:16-19).

The natural man is not pleasing to God (Romans 8:8), so the man without the act of God mentioned above (John 6:29, John 3:3-8, John 3:21, and John 15:16-19), is not pleasing to God.

 

[Kermos]

This was my thought when I followed the link given; my first reaction after scrolling through who knows how many pages, was of Jesus's words in Matthew 6:7 about the pagan practices in prayer, saying: "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." I think this principle applies to our argumentation, teaching and preaching as well. The foundational truths are always simply stated. I remember an anecdotal story of John Wesley allegedly sitting a five year old down and reading his sermon to him saying, "if I say something you don't understand, stop me!" Now I'm not certain of the veracity of this story, but it has a good point. The Kiss method is what helps me, keep it short and simple!

(A secondary thought arose as well, from Shakespeare: Much ado about nothing!)

Doug

TibiasDad, would you please try to start with the first section at the essay here: Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor ? Then, perhaps you might discuss here in this thread.

When Jesus said "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words" (Matthew 6:7), He was most certainly not speaking about discussing the Word of God!

Lord Jesus, the Word of God (John 1:14), taught us to speak often about the Word of God, in fact, He said "abide in Me" (John 15:4).

The Word of God is paramount, yet you compared it to pagan practices.

Your second paragraph is rather dismissive, TibiasDad, and it is utterly worldy!

By the way, TibiasDad, based on the context of your post, you proved the original post true.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[TibiasDad]

No person can choose to be at the banquet as well as salvation as well as sanctification, per the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation)...

Matt 22:2The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

The guests were invited, but they chose not to come! One man chose to come but either chose not to wear the proper garments, or chose to come knowing he did not have the proper garments. The banquet Master chose those who met the terms of coming to the banquet, namely, choosing to actually accept the invitation to come, and to wear the proper garments of respect to the Master.

So there are many choices being made for and against by everyone in the story.

The Bible DOES state that a person cannot choose Lord Jesus, for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

John 15:1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love...
14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17This is my command: Love each other. 18“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

Every time you see an "if", you are looking at a contingency, i.e., a moment of choice! Yes he chooses us, but we also choose him by choosing to remain in him!

As a side note, where do you find evidence the being "called from the world" necessarily means, "thus the choosing extends to salvation"? There is no such notion in verse 19, and that would mean that you are adding to the word something that is not intended by the word! Physician, heal yourself! (Luke 4:23), for did you not say, "It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27)"?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

TibiasDad, would you please try to start with the first section at the essay here: Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor ? Then, perhaps you might discuss here in this thread.

When Jesus said "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words" (Matthew 6:7), He was most certainly not speaking about discussing the Word of God!

Lord Jesus, the Word of God (John 1:14), taught us to speak often about the Word of God, in fact, He said "abide in Me" (John 15:4).

The Word of God is paramount, yet you compared it to pagan practices.

Your second paragraph is rather dismissive, TibiasDad, and it is utterly worldy!

By the way, TibiasDad, based on the context of your post, you proved the original post true.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

My intent of the "many words" comment is that the link you posted was little more that a long list of scriptures, without any real attempt at explaining why these passages support whatever it is your attempting to validate. Anyone can string an ad nauseam parade of scriptures, but that does little to prove anything. Sometimes, the overuse of scripture in an argument can obscure the fact that you cannot explain what they mean, and your hoping that the hearer will simply acquiesce to your point because "they quote so many scriptures that they must be right. " This is the same kind of tactic that cult practitioners do, especially those like the Jehovah's Witnesses! I've seen it a hundred times; instead of dealing with the questions about one passage, they throw out another two or three passages that can deter the conversation in another direction. (And no, I'm not implying that you are a cult practitioner!)

Mature students know better than to fall for such tactics, and, in my humble opinion, good teachers can make their point with two or three passages. Jesus never used long lists of quotations, and he was the best teacher ever! When you learn from the best, you can ignore the rest!

This is why I don't fall for the "By the way, TibiasDad, based on the context of your post, you proved the original post true" arguments; your saying that it proves it does not in fact prove it! If you would care to demonstrate how this is necessarily true, perhaps we can have a real conversation, but unless you want to accept my arguments at face value, I see no reason to accept yours or anyone else's at face value.


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lord Jesus, the Word of God (John 1:14), saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) refers back to when the Word is heard by we believers, His sheep (John 10:27-30), thus He cleanses us believers (John 15:3) who He chooses (John 15:16).

My question was about the meaning of 'chosen'. Do you understand what it means?

Lord Jesus saves all His disciples in all time. No disciple chooses Jesus because Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

No doubt, but do you understand what being chosen means?

You disregard both Matthias and Joseph mentioned in point number one of post #8 of this thread referenced in the very post to which you replied. This puts more than the 11 Apostles with Jesus when John 15:16 was spoken.

I'm interested in what the Word says, not what others think the Word says. I suggest you begin at John 13 and read to 18:1. You will find that that entire section occurred in the Upper Room. Also note 13:30 - As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

So, that leaves out Judas from the 12. Now there are 11. 18:1 - When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it.

This verse documents that Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples, where He went and His arrest. So EVERYTHING He said between ch 13 and 18:1 was said to ONLY 11 disciples.

Are you suggesting that Judas was chosen for salvation?

This goes right back to the original post in this thread. You free willians just toss scripture aside and restate your deceptive position.

Yeah, yeah, let's get beyond the false charges and get to your "evidence".

Lord Jesus did not say that the Twelve are the ONLY persons that Jesus chooses in John 6:70.

Where did He say or even suggest that He was talking to more than 12?

Here is the full context for v.70-
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, who else was with Him when He told THE TWELVE that He had chosen them?

You claim Judas was saved even though he was the son of perdition! You really do not know the Bible.

No. It is YOU who dod not know what I posted. I've NEVER said or suggested that Judas was saved. EVER. That is absurd. Maybe you have confused me with someone else, or you just didn't read my post carefully.

Judas was chosen, yes, but NEVER saved.

Judas was NOT there when Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, which includes salvation).

That has always been my point.

You have just now proved INCIDENT EXAMPLE ONE of the original post true.

In fact, you have just proved that you are confused or did not read my post correctly.

You wrote "And NONE of them link election with salvation".

That is right. So, show me any verse that does link election with salvation.

Apparently, you have not looked at Lord Jesus' words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) because the word "chose" is a variant of eklego.

I think we're going to get to the truth here shortly. Jesus said the same thing in John 6:70, so we KNOW Jesus wasn't referring to salvation. But you seem not to know what Jesus was referring to. In John 15:1-6 Jesus was speaking about bearing fruit. That is what He chose His disciples for.

Wait, I've already brought to your attention that Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) in correspondence in this thread.

Your claim needs evidence. A claim without evidence is an empty claim. Prove it with evidence.

1 Corinthians 1:21 does not state a believer becomes a believer by human free will, and I'm glad you acknowledge such.

Oh, good grief! Really? It also doesn't come close to saying that God chooses who will believe either. So prove that He does, since you think that He does.

1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised".

Therefore, the believer mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:21 must of necessity be born of the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8) to spiritually appraise the things of the Spirit of God.

Your "logic" is quite flawed. 1 Cor 2:14 is about advanced doctrines, not the gospel. Check out v.6 and v.10. Paul said he was speaking to "the mature" meaning spiritually mature, and the "deep things of God". No way is the gospel deep. It's simple and straightforward. In fact, I've read articles in Time and Newsweek magazines over the years written by unbelievers who accurately explained the gospel, all the while not believing the gospel. So don't tell me what unbelievers can understand about the gospel.

Additionally, the unbeliever mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:21 must of necessity be not born of the Spirit of God (John 3:3-8) becuase the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the unbeliever.

I don't know what you are talking about. There is no unbeliever mentioned in that verse. ??

Essentially, based on what you've written, I ascertain that your assertion about 1 Corinthians 1:21 tries to impute a meaning upon the text that does not exist, and that non-existent meaning is that (1) a person causes the person to believe so that (2) God saves the person.

Your opinion is duly noted. And rejected. The point is that God saves those who believe. Now, prove your claim that God chooses who will believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 states that "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe"

We need to look at belief/faith and "believe".

What is clear is the choice that God makes in who to save. He saves believers. But Calvinists don't seem to like that kind of wording.

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 1:21 and Paul wrote Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 states that "For by grace you have been saved through belief; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them".

See that "saved through belief". Paul wrote that grace and salvation and belief are all the gift of God!

Again, a faulty conclusion. There is nothing in that passage (or any other verse) that believing is a gift. But please provide your evidence that it is.

Behold that Lord Jesus defines belief/faith with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

This isn't a definition at all. In fact, Jesus used the crowd's own word to explain what God requires for salvation. The Jews were all very "works oriented". They thought that salvation was by works. And that was the basis of their question in v.28 - 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Powerfully, Lord Jesus tells us that the work of God is for a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent. Jesus defines belief/faith right there as the work of God.

Paul describes eternal life (which is salvation) as a gift of God. So, is salvation a work or a gift? It CANNOT be both. They are mutually exclusive. A work creates an obligation, but a gift is by grace. Check mate.

God saves believers; furthermore, God creates believers (John 3:3-8, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 15:16-19).

OK, just quote the verse that actually states that God "creates believers". Those words do NOT occur in any of these verses you've cited. You've got to do better than just throw out several citations with your claims. Please show me ANY verse that says that God creates believers. I don't believe your claim. So please prove it.

The natural man is not pleasing to God (Romans 8:8), so the man without the act of God mentioned above (John 6:29, John 3:3-8, John 3:21, and John 15:16-19), is not pleasing to God.

Have you never read Heb 11:6? And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Notice the verse doesn't say "anyone who God drags to Himself will believe". It clearly shows that in order for someone to "come to God", they must believe in His existence. And that pleases God. Such people have responded properly per Rom 1:19-21.

So, to review, I'm going to look for 2 things from you, if you want to prove your claims.

1. Show me any verse that links election to salvation. (not just your claim)
2. Show me any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses who will believe.

 

[bling]

I believe in one eternal God, existing as three distinct and equal persons being Love (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned], Romans 1:7 [Father], John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14], John 15:26 [Spirit], 1 John 4:8 [Love]).

Behold, I do not need to use the word trinity.

Your first argument is non-sequitor.



If you say, as you wrote "Humans do not have free will so we must have some limited free will" then you are adding "limited free will" to the Word of God.

Your second argument is non-sequitor.

Now, on to your third argument. No person can choose to be at the banquet as well as salvation as well as sanctification, per the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

Your third argument, which appears to be about people rejecting Jesus, is non-sequitor.

Let's returnt to your second argument where you attempt to add "limited free will" to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

The Bible DOES state that a person cannot choose Lord Jesus, for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, thus the choosing extends to salvation).

Using your reasoning:
The Bible does not specifically tell us, "God has free will", so that means God does not have free will and is just like a machine.

 

[Kermos]

snip...

Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure.

...snip

I was thinking about your post #24, and that which you wrote, so here is some worthwhile information.

In the eighth post of this thread, I pointed out in "EXHIBIT 3:" of said post that "There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage".

Your first post to this thread was the thirteenth post - after the post I made that included EXHIBIT 3.

In the twenty-fourth post to this thread, you wrote "Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure.".

As is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to something that was already covered.

Your action proves the original post of this thread true.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was thinking about your post #24, and that which you wrote, so here is some worthwhile information.

In the eighth post of this thread, I pointed out in "EXHIBIT 3:" of said post that "There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage".

Your first post to this thread was the thirteenth post - after the post I made that included EXHIBIT 3.

In the twenty-fourth post to this thread, you wrote "Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure.".

I guess sarcasm doesn't work well on your computer. I typed the "sure" with lots of sarcasm.

Since you took my sarcasm so literally, I hope and pray that my previous post has cleared all that up for you regarding what I believe about ol' Judas.

As is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to something that was already covered.

So, you meticulously begin every thread that's already pages long at the beginning, huh. Well, I've had enough experience with decades of posting that ideas get repeated ad nauseam.

Your action proves the original post of this thread true.

Your opinion is duly noted.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus.

I guess you're not going to even both defending your claims. I asked for 2 simple things.

1. Show me any verse that links election to salvation. (not just your claim)
2. Show me any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses who will believe.

Can you do this or not?

Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

I'm going to wait for your responses to my 2 straightforward requests.

If you can provide any verse that supports each request, then you will have proven your claims.

Otherwise, you have not. Simple as that.

Given your response to my previous post, I'm going to guess that you're not really into proving your claims.

And I don't have to guess why. There isn't any.

Now, if that isn't a challenge, I don't know what is.

If you're up to the challenge, then go for it. Otherwise, those who follow this thread will see that too.

 

[Kermos]

Matt 22:2The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, 'How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

The guests were invited, but they chose not to come! One man chose to come but either chose not to wear the proper garments, or chose to come knowing he did not have the proper garments. The banquet Master chose those who met the terms of coming to the banquet, namely, choosing to actually accept the invitation to come, and to wear the proper garments of respect to the Master.

So there are many choices being made for and against by everyone in the story.

First, this is a parable, so one needs to be careful when attempting to draw theology from parables. Lord Jesus declared plainly clear statements, and Lord Jesus declared parables.

Lord Jesus addresses as to why He speaks in parables when He says "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted" (Matthew 13:11), yet this plainly clear statement of Jesus indicates that understanding the parables is "granted"; in other words, God grants eyes to see and ears to hear, that is, God grants understanding of the parables.

Second, we know the word "choose" and it's conjugates exist in Greek, but they do NOT occur in this passage UNTIL the final verse of "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

Third, the greek word kaleo (Strong's Greek: 2564. καλέω (kaleó) -- to call) which has been translated as "invite" in the passage, but the definition of kaleo is "call".

The usage for kaleo is (a) I call, summon, invite, (b) I call, name.

Kings summon poeple. If you think that an officially summoned person by a king is presented a discrectionary invitation (summons), then you do not have a concept of royalty because we find the results of rejecting the official summons of the king "The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city" (Matthew 22:7).

Fourth, in the passage, ACTIONS are indicated for the people, not choices, but actions.

Fifth, someone without the appropriate covering was summoned (called) (Matthew 22:11), yet the king identified a improperly covered person that did not belong at the banquet. The culmination establishes the reason which is "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14)

We believers are covered by the Blood of Christ, so the parable clearly shows that a person not covered by the Blood of Christ is cast into the outer darkness.

King Jesus said "few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14), and this refers to an act of choosing by the King upon a person NOT a person choosing the King; therefore, we find consistency in the message of Lord Jesus when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

John 15:1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love...
14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17This is my command: Love each other. 18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

Every time you see an "if", you are looking at a contingency, i.e., a moment of choice! Yes he chooses us, but we also choose him by choosing to remain in him!

Actually, Lord Jesus sets the stage of the fruits of the IF (IF/THEN so to speak) statements when He says "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5); therefore, God is with us and in us believers that satisfy the conditions to the IF/THEN statements.

Scripture contains many conditional logic statements. A conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct.

In linguistics, logic, semantics, and reality the established fact is that an IF/THEN construct follows this pattern:

IF condition THEN predicate

The condition results in a true state or false state. If, and only if, the condition results in a true state does the predicate get executed.

An IF-THEN construct merely exposes whether a condition is true or false; consequently, an if/then statement does not inherently convey ability to produce a true state for the condition.

An IF/THEN construct exposes a potential, current, or previously taken PATH along with the PATH's resultant IMPACT.

So, an IF-THEN construct imposes a conditionl expression and a predicate, for example,

IF ACTION THEN RESULT

Moreover, no conveyance of ability exists intrinsically within the if-then construct.

In scripture, an ACTION represents fruit for the the Word of God says "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-20) and "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

In language, an IF/THEN statement requires a qualifier to indicate choice, for example, "if you choose chocolate then you eat chocolate" thus the qualifier in the conditional is "choose", but the conditional still does not convey ability to "choose" which such conveyance of ability to "choose" necessitates additional language connected with the IF-THEN statement, such as "you have the ability to choose" since the predicate cannot be executed in the absence of a supply of chocolate.

In Scripture, "you have the ability to choose God" is never expressed nor implied, yet, on the contrary to such a statement of "choose", the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) with no exceptions to the stated choosing while applying to all believers in all time (John 17:20).

These facts of IF/THEN statements do not disappear in scripture.

An IF/THEN can be expressed likewise as:

IF you_do_this that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action/fruit in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

The same goes for a command, that is, a command does not convey ability to carry out the command.

For example, the command "do not do this" does not inherently grant the capability to comply with the command.

Neither a conditional nor a command convey choice unless specifically stated.

 

[Kermos]

As a side note, where do you find evidence the being "called from the world" necessarily means, "thus the choosing extends to salvation"? There is no such notion in verse 19, and that would mean that you are adding to the word something that is not intended by the word! Physician, heal yourself! (Luke 4:23), for did you not say, "It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27)"?

Doug

Uhhh, TibiasDad, Jesus said "I chose out of the world" (John 15:19) not "called from the world". That sure looks like you are trying to subtract from the Word of God.

"The spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:46-48).

The natural man is worldly. The spiritual man is heavenly.

Clearly, God chooses people out of the world. Out of the world means into the only other, that is the spiritual.

Jesus, my Lord and my God (John 20;28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and this includes salvation of which men are incapable of choosing for this Jesus also says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Context, TibiasDad, is crucial in Scripture, so let's look at "Physician, heal yourself!" (Luke 4:23).

Lord Jesus' full statement in Luke 4:23 in it's entirety is "No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, 'Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.'"

See that Lord Jesus refers to Himself as the Physician as He prophesies about the things they would say to Him, such as when the mockers said to Jesus while He was on the cross "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." (Luke 23:35), so the prophecy spoken by Jesus was fulfilled.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

My question was about the meaning of 'chosen'. Do you understand what it means?

No doubt, but do you understand what being chosen means?

Your questions are insulting, FreeGrace2; nonetheless, here is the answer, yes.

It appears to me that you try to evade the Truth (John 14:6) that God alone chooses people unto salvation (John 15:16-19).

I'm interested in what the Word says, not what others think the Word says. I suggest you begin at John 13 and read to 18:1. You will find that that entire section occurred in the Upper Room. Also note 13:30 - As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

So, that leaves out Judas from the 12. Now there are 11. 18:1 - When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it.

This verse documents that Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples, where He went and His arrest. So EVERYTHING He said between ch 13 and 18:1 was said to ONLY 11 disciples.

Are you suggesting that Judas was chosen for salvation?

Yeah, yeah, let's get beyond the false charges and get to your "evidence".

FreeGrace2, you persist in committing the very error outlined in the original post to this thread in the above, as you just ignore posts that demonstrate where you are proven wrong about where you wrote "Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples".

Matthias and Joseph, both disciples, were with the apostles "all the time", so that puts at least 13 people in the upper room,

You have been PROVEN WRONG by scripture about "Jesus left with ONLY 11 disciples", so it appears that your are not interested in what the Word says, after all, the proof was presented in the eighth post of this thread - that is before you made your first post to this thread.

This is the Truth (John 14:6).

Where did He say or even suggest that He was talking to more than 12?

Here is the full context for v.70-
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, who else was with Him when He told THE TWELVE that He had chosen them?

The Apostle Paul, for one, is another Apostle beyond the 12, and Paul was chosen by Jesus. Don't think for a moment that I am writing that Paul was there when Jesus said "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70).

Clearly, Lord Jesus says that Jesus chose the twelve as apostles at that time. Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) when Jesus said "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70). Sequence is crucial, FreeGrace2.

By the way, Matthias and Joseph were there as disciples as well, as indicated earlier.

No. It is YOU who dod not know what I posted. I've NEVER said or suggested that Judas was saved. EVER. That is absurd. Maybe you have confused me with someone else, or you just didn't read my post carefully.

It appears that you dish out facetiousness, but you cannot take when your writing of "Sure. So Judas was saved, even though the Bible says he went to perdition?? Sure." is put right back at you.

We are engaged in a serious discussion about eternal matter.

Judas was chosen, yes, but NEVER saved.

That has always been my point.

In fact, you have just proved that you are confused or did not read my post correctly.

That is right. So, show me any verse that does link election with salvation.

I think we're going to get to the truth here shortly. Jesus said the same thing in John 6:70, so we KNOW Jesus wasn't referring to salvation. But you seem not to know what Jesus was referring to. In John 15:1-6 Jesus was speaking about bearing fruit. That is what He chose His disciples for.

Your claim needs evidence. A claim without evidence is an empty claim. Prove it with evidence.

Apparently, you persist in ingnoring the Word of God saying "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) because the word "chose" is a variant of eklego.

You are mishandling John 6:70, as demonstrated above.

Your evidentiary declarations are vacuuous.

I've already brought to your attention that Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) in correspondence in this thread, and the Word of God speaks for Himself.

Oh, good grief! Really? It also doesn't come close to saying that God chooses who will believe either. So prove that He does, since you think that He does.

You wrongly just took a sentence out of it's context, so your claim is error. The Word of God has been proclaimed again and again to you.

Your "logic" is quite flawed. 1 Cor 2:14 is about advanced doctrines, not the gospel. Check out v.6 and v.10. Paul said he was speaking to "the mature" meaning spiritually mature, and the "deep things of God". No way is the gospel deep. It's simple and straightforward. In fact, I've read articles in Time and Newsweek magazines over the years written by unbelievers who accurately explained the gospel, all the while not believing the gospel. So don't tell me what unbelievers can understand about the gospel.

You try to subtract that Paul is discussing much in 1 Corinthians 2, and this includes things about belief and unbelief as well as matters of immaturity and maturity.

This is why I quote 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" to you.

I don't know what you are talking about. There is no unbeliever mentioned in that verse. ??

"the world through its wisdom did not [come to] know God" (1 Corinthians 1:21). Therein is the unbeliever mentioned.

Your opinion is duly noted. And rejected. The point is that God saves those who believe. Now, prove your claim that God chooses who will believe.

Wow, I point out that the Word of God states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) by which Lord Jesus defines belief/faith and thus believe with it's conjugates, yet you openly reject the Word of God.

You continue to wrongly strip sentences out of their context, so your claim is error. The Word of God has been proclaimed again and again to you.

What is clear is the choice that God makes in who to save. He saves believers. But Calvinists don't seem to like that kind of wording.

Calvinists??? Where are the Calvinists?

I'm not a Calvinist.

Again, a faulty conclusion. There is nothing in that passage (or any other verse) that believing is a gift. But please provide your evidence that it is.

Paul describes eternal life (which is salvation) as a gift of God. So, is salvation a work or a gift? It CANNOT be both. They are mutually exclusive. A work creates an obligation, but a gift is by grace. Check mate.

You continue to wrongly strip sentences out of their context, so your claim is error. The Word of God has been proclaimed again and again to you.

See that "by grace you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul wrote that grace and salvation and belief are all the gift of God!

And you try to subtract meaning by limiting it to the middle word point of "saved", and that is rather arrogantly arbitrary, especially when we have Lord Jesus defining faith/belief.

This isn't a definition at all. In fact, Jesus used the crowd's own word to explain what God requires for salvation. The Jews were all very "works oriented". They thought that salvation was by works. And that was the basis of their question in v.28 - 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Regardless of the question, Lord Jesus provided a definition when He said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

In the Word of God's statement He clearly states that for a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God.

You are confused about "work of God" versus "work of man", so let me clarify. As the Word of God reveals, (1) choosing unto salvation is a work of God (John 15:16-19), (2) Belief is a work of God (John 6:29).

OK, just quote the verse that actually states that God "creates believers". Those words do NOT occur in any of these verses you've cited. You've got to do better than just throw out several citations with your claims. Please show me ANY verse that says that God creates believers. I don't believe your claim. So please prove it.

It appears the paraphrase that God creates believers confounds you, so here are some passages on which the paraphrase are based in order to remedy that, provided God opens your eyes, John 3:3-8, Ezekiel 36:26, Matthew 18:3-4.

Have you never read Heb 11:6? And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Notice the verse doesn't say "anyone who God drags to Himself will believe". It clearly shows that in order for someone to "come to God", they must believe in His existence. And that pleases God. Such people have responded properly per Rom 1:19-21.

You subtract that Lord Jesus defines faith/belief with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Additionally, Lord Jesus says this about coming to God, "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so when you wrote "in order for someone to 'come to God', they must believe in His existence" it is true, but you proceed to error as you attribute the coming to God unto the work of man instead of wrought in God, so you are contradicting the Word of God (John 3:21).

So, to review, I'm going to look for 2 things from you, if you want to prove your claims.

1. Show me any verse that links election to salvation. (not just your claim)
2. Show me any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses who will believe.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19 which includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Using your reasoning:
The Bible does not specifically tell us, "God has free will", so that means God does not have free will and is just like a machine.

The will of God is discussed in the Bible. It sounds like you are saying that God changes despite scripture stating God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Your argument is non-sequitor.

Free will imparted to mankind is abasent from scripture; therefore, man does not have a free will becuase to claim otherwise is to add to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

 

[Kermos]

I guess sarcasm doesn't work well on your computer. I typed the "sure" with lots of sarcasm.

Since you took my sarcasm so literally, I hope and pray that my previous post has cleared all that up for you regarding what I believe about ol' Judas.


So, you meticulously begin every thread that's already pages long at the beginning, huh. Well, I've had enough experience with decades of posting that ideas get repeated ad nauseam.


Your opinion is duly noted.


I guess you're not going to even both defending your claims. I asked for 2 simple things.

1. Show me any verse that links election to salvation. (not just your claim)
2. Show me any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses who will believe.

Can you do this or not?


I'm going to wait for your responses to my 2 straightforward requests.

If you can provide any verse that supports each request, then you will have proven your claims.

Otherwise, you have not. Simple as that.

Given your response to my previous post, I'm going to guess that you're not really into proving your claims.

And I don't have to guess why. There isn't any.

Now, if that isn't a challenge, I don't know what is.

If you're up to the challenge, then go for it. Otherwise, those who follow this thread will see that too.

It sounds like you do not take eternal life seriously, based on your first sentence.

Your post was proved to be error repeatedly, yet also in my post #38 in this thread.

Then it sounds like the words of Lord Jesus "treat people the same way you want them to treat you" (Matthew 7:12) mean nothing to you.

Still, as is clearly evident, you violated INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE of the original post. You circled back to something that was already covered.

Your action proves the original post of this thread true.

The Word of God presented already in the thread address your repetious 2 questions, including my post #38 in this thread and elsewhere.

You keep trying to subtract God's exclusive choosing of man unto salvation to scripture and you try to a add man choosing God unto salvation to scripture.

You have no scripture to support your claim.

To you, FreeGrace2, I declare that it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6) as well as of the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

Now, about the exclusive dominion of God in the salvation of man:

Our gracious Benefactor produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   
   "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)
   
   SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
   
   
2. beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)
   
   SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God
   
   
3. beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)
   
   SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God
   
   
4. beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)
   
   SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God