Objections to Sola Scriptura?

[bmjackson]

Partially led but as they are not holy ie sinless, not fully.

 

[bmjackson]

They would be agreeing otherwise

 

[BBAS 64]

Maybe you can clarify. To me it makes little sense to claim that Sola Scriptura allows for other authorities. After all, the Sola Scriptura position is that EVERY claim must pass the test of exegetical soundness. Ultimately, then, these other "authorities" really have no authority at all if Sola Scriptura is true. Right? What am I missing here?

Good Day, Jal

"Sola Scriptura doesn't deny the presence of other authorities subordinate to the Scriptures. The "Sola" refers to its status as the only infallible authority, not the only authority."

Hope this helps....

IN Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

If the whole truth is in the holy scriptures with nothing added then why do Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Mennonites, Quakers, Pentecostals, Nazarene, Methodists, and a huge number of independent churches exist? If the bible is sufficient why can none of these agree on what the bible teaches?

Good Day, Xeno

Historically this has always been an issue. You conflate two things that are really unrelated the nature of Scripture ( God produced "Breathed out from God") and the (understanding and agreement of men).

I would suggest there is much agreement maybe not 100%,

Basil of Caesarea: On the history of views of scripture

Basil of Caesarea (Ad 329-379): Liberated from the error of
pagan tradition through the benevolence and loving kindness
of the good God, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by the operation of the Holy Spirit, I was reared from the very
beginning by Christian parents. From them I learned even in
babyhood the Holy Scriptures which led me to a knowledge of
the truth. When I grew to manhood, I traveled about frequently
and, in the natural course of things, I engaged in a great many
worldly affairs. Here I observed that the most harmonious
relations existed among those trained in the pursuit of each of
the arts and sciences; while in the Church of God alone, for
which Christ died and upon which He poured out in
abundance the Holy Spirit, I noticed that many disagree
violently with one another and also in their understanding of
the Holy Scriptures. Most alarming of all is the fact that I found
the very leaders of the Church themselves at such variance
with one another in thought and opinion, showing so much
opposition to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so
mercilessly rendering asunder the Church of God and cruelly
confounding His flock that, in our day, with the rise of the
Anomoeans, there is fulfilled in them as never before the
prophecy, ‘Of your own selves shall men arise speaking
perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.’
Witnessing such disorders as these and perplexed as to what
the cause and source of such evil might be, I at first was in a
state, as it were, of thick darkness and, as if on a balance, I
veered now this way, now that—attracted now to one man,
now to another, under the influence of protracted association
with these persons, and then thrust in the other direction, as I
bethought myself of the validity of the Holy Scriptures. After a
long time spent in this state of indecision and while I was still
busily searching for the cause I have mentioned, there came to
my mind the Book of Judges which tells how each man did
what was right in his own eyes and gives the reason for this in
the words” ‘In those days there was no king in Israel.’ With
these words in my mind, then, I applied also to the present
circumstances that explanation which, incredible and
frightening as it may be, is quite truly pertinent when it is
understood; for never before has there arisen such discord
and quarreling as now among the the members of the Church
in consequence of their turning away from the one, great, and
true God, only King of the universe. Each man, indeed,
abandons the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and arrogates
to himself authority in dealing with certain questions, making
his own private rules, and preferring to exercise leadership in
opposition to the Lord to being led by the Lord. Reflecting
upon this and aghast at the magnitude of the impiety, I
pursued my investigation further and became convinced that
the aforesaid cause was no less the true source also of secular
difficulties. I noticed that as long as the common obedience of
the others to some one leader was maintained, all was
discipline and harmony in the whole group; but that division
and discord and a rivalry of leaders besides proceeded from a
lack of leadership. Moreover, I once had observed how even a
swarm of bees, in accordance with a law of nature, lives under
military discipline and obeys its own king with orderly
precision. Many such instances have I witnessed and many
others I have heard of, and persons who make profession of
such matters know many more still, so that they can vouch for
the truth of what I have said. Now, if good order with its
attendant harmony is characteristic of those who look to one
source of authority and are subject to one king, then universal
disorder and disharmony are a sign that leadership is wanting.
By the same token, if we discover in our midst such a lack of
accord as I have mentioned, both with regard to one another
and with respect to the Lord’s commands, it would be an
indictment either of our rejection of the true king, according
to the Scriptural saying: ‘only that he who now holdeth, do
hold, until he be taken out of the way,’ or of denial of Him
according to the Psalmist: ‘The fool hath said in his heart:
There is no God.’ And as a kind of token or proof of this, there
follow the words: ‘They are corrupt and are become
abominable in their ways.’ Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9,
Preface on the Judgment of God (New York: Fathers of the
Church, Inc., 1950), pp. 37-39.

In Him,

Bill

 

[JAL]

Good Day, Jal

"Sola Scriptura doesn't deny the presence of other authorities subordinate to the Scriptures. The "Sola" refers to its status as the only infallible authority, not the only authority."

Hope this helps....

IN Him,

Bill

No it doesn't help at all. You merely reasserted the proposition that I questioned.

 

[BBAS 64]

No it doesn't help at all. You merely reasserted the proposition that I questioned.

Good Day, Jal

Sorry then.... I tried.

You may find this useful:

The Sola Scriptura Debate - James White vs Mitch Pacwa 1999

In Him,

Bill

 

[JAL]

Good Day, Jal

Sorry then.... I tried.

You may find this useful:

The Sola Scriptura Debate - James White vs Mitch Pacwa 1999

In Him,

Bill

No I'm not going to play that media. I raised a very simple, straightforward question. I shouldn't have to attend a seminar, or read a whole book, to get an answer. Thanks anyway.

 

[Jonaitis]

deleted.

 

[BBAS 64]

No it doesn't help at all. You merely reasserted the proposition that I questioned.

Good Day, Jal

Maybe this will help:

In my denomination the is a board of elders that have authority over the church. In the Roman Church the Pope and the bishops have authority over that denomination.

They have and are an authority, but that are not infallible in the exercise of that authority. That authority is subject to (inferior to) the the particular, sacred, ontological authority of Scripture.

In Him,

Bill

 

[JAL]

Good Day, Jal

Maybe this will help:

In my denomination the is a board of elders that have authority over the church. In the Roman Church the Pope and the bishops have authority over that denomination.

They have and are an authority, but that are not infallible in the exercise of that authority. That authority is subject to (inferior to) the the particular, sacred, ontological authority of Scripture.

In Him,

Bill

Thanks. When a theologian takes the time to formulate a technical statement like this:

"Sola Scriptura doesn't deny the presence of other authorities subordinate to the Scriptures. The "Sola" refers to its status as the only infallible authority, not the only authority."

One would think he's actually saying something noteworthy. You've confirmed my suspicion that he's merely stating the obvious - the obvious implications of Sola Scriptura (as if his readers are too stupid to arrive at that extrapolation on their own). How laughably ridiculous (that he thinks we are so stupid), but thanks for taking the time to confirm.

 

[BBAS 64]

Thanks. When a theologian takes the time to formulate a technical statement like this:

"Sola Scriptura doesn't deny the presence of other authorities subordinate to the Scriptures. The "Sola" refers to its status as the only infallible authority, not the only authority."

One would think he's actually saying something noteworthy. You've confirmed my suspicion that he's merely stating the obvious - the obvious implications of Sola Scriptura (as if his readers are too stupid to arrive at that extrapolation on their own). How laughably ridiculous (that he thinks we are so stupid), but thanks for taking the time to confirm.

Good Day, Jal

One has to wonder if you indeed understood the obvious.. but had to ask a question

Oh well there are only 2 conclusions both of which are self evident, but may be viewed as uncharitable but none the less true.

Be well

 

[eleos1954]

Holy tradition is the teaching of the holy catholic apostolic church as it was in the early years and not the error that developed over time due to the RC idea of progressive revelation. They are the ones who are qualified to interpret and only those who were called holy men that is to say, those in theosis.

Roman Catholics believe the description "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" to be applicable only to the Roman Catholic Church. They hold that "Christ established here on earth only one Church" and they believe in "the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church".

We are all one in Christ .... all in Christ are His church and transcends all earthly church systems.

Christ is the only one qualified to interpret/teach.

It is upon all of us to study His word diligently and He will give light to us as we do.

Psalms 119:105

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Psalms 119

9How can a young man keep his way pure?
By guarding it according to Your word.10With all my heart I have sought You;
do not let me stray from Your commandments.11I have hidden Your word in my heart
that I might not sin against You.12Blessed are You, O LORD;
teach me Your statutes.

Matthew 11:29
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Psalm 25:8-10
Good and upright is the Lord;
Therefore He instructs sinners in the way.

JESUS is the church. Jesus is our teacher. Follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

 

[bmjackson]

"Roman Catholics believe the description "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" to be applicable only to the Roman Catholic Church."

Well if they did that they would not have added the filioque clause to the Nicean council which alters the Trinity a great deal.

 

[Clare73]

If the whole truth is in the holy scriptures with nothing added then why do Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Mennonites, Quakers, Pentecostals, Nazarene, Methodists, and a huge number of independent churches exist?
If the bible is sufficient why can none of these agree on what the bible teaches?

Which is not a demonstration of the Bible's insufficiency, only of man's inability to agree on what it actually teaches, some of the divine mind seeming contrary to human "logic" and, therefore, repugnant, so they deny the Scripture teaches it.

 

[Clare73]

Good point. These verses strongly suggest that the oral teaching of the apostles carried authority in the early church, which is a considerable challenge to Sola Scriptura.

We can be certain that the oral teaching of the apostles was in perfect agreement with the written teaching of the apostles, thereby making the written teaching sufficient.

I just want to add here my personal opinion as to WHY oral teaching carried authority. This ties in with my position defined at post #9. Works like this:
(1) A prophet or apostle needs to know when a given message did indeed come from God. The Spirit solves this by convicting/convincing them, causing them to feel certain it came from God.
(2) When the prophet or apostle relays that same message to an audience, typically the Spirit would convict the audience as well, causing them also to feel certain about it. On these occasions the audience could not ignore the message in good conscience. That's what made it authoritative/obligatory.

 

[Clare73]

Roman Catholics believe the description "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" to be applicable only to the Roman Catholic Church. They hold that "Christ established here on earth only one Church" and they believe in "the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church".

We are all one in Christ .... all in Christ are His church and transcends all earthly church systems.

Christ is the only one qualified to interpret/teach.

It is upon all of us to study His word diligently and He will give light to us as we do.

Psalms 119:105

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Psalms 119

9How can a young man keep his way pure?
By guarding it according to Your word.10With all my heart I have sought You;
do not let me stray from Your commandments.11I have hidden Your word in my heart
that I might not sin against You.12Blessed are You, O LORD;
teach me Your statutes.

Matthew 11:29
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Psalm 25:8-10
Good and upright is the Lord;
Therefore He instructs sinners in the way.

JESUS is the church. Jesus is our teacher. Follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

The born again are the church, the bride, and as his bride (Revelation 21:9-14), it is the body of Christ, being the two-in-one-flesh of the marital union (Ephesians 5:31-32).

 

[Clare73]

Sure. In that case, I'm confident you won't mind if I share MY explanation for the disunity.
(1). Human beings are fallible interpreters of any book.
(2) The Bible is NOT a plain book.
(3) Even if it were plain, there is too much at stake (100 billion souls since the world began) to risk fallible human interpretation.
(4) In other words God intended the church to prioritize the pursuit of infallible revelation (aka prophecy). Which she has not done.

Paul clearly places prophecy on the top rung of the priority ladder, alongside love. He commanded the whole church:

"Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" (1 Cor 14:1).
Instead of honoring Paul's command - instead of waiting on the Lord for Direct Revelation to determine doctrine

CONTEXT. . .

We have here an example of why the different teachings of the denominations. . .taking things out of context.

The above is in the context of spiritual gifts, and the counsel of the gift of prophecy to be desired above the gift of tongues.
It is not about prioritizing the "infallible revelation" of prophecy, which is given in riddles and not clearly, as God told Miriam regarding the riddles (dark sayings) in which he spoke to all the prophets but Moses, to whom he spoke clearly (Numbers 12:8).
Personal interpretation of prophecy, which is subject to more than one interpretation, is not authoritative for the church, nor is it a priority for the church.

Making prophetic riddles the authoritative source of doctrine for the church is absurd on its face.

- the church has typically relied on exegesis/scholarship (Sola Scriptura) to determine doctrine. The widespread assumption is, "I neither need to be a prophet, nor hear from a prophet, to reliably interpret the Bible." That's a catastrophic mistake, in my opinion.

Good demonstration of why so many differences and error in the body of Christ--riddles rather than teaching are authoritative.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church.

Scripture?

The Church says scripture is God's Word. How can one not understand this?

God commanded us to listen to his Son, whose words are recorded in the writings of the apostles.

The recorded words of the apostles are our authority.
Christianity is the apostolic faith, not the "Eastern" or the "Roman" faith.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That's not the issue with the Bible, that's the issue with us. We are all sinner, unable to accept and live by Word of God. To understand the Word of God, the Holy Spirit must interpret it.

How can then born again Christians then disagree about certain things? Because even though we are saved, we still live in sinful flesh that is doing it's best to reject God's truth. By our sinful nature we have the wrong image of God in our head, by our own interpretation how He ought to be, but who can comprehend God? There's also the want wanting to understand everything, knowing everything. The Holy Spirit will interpret to us what He wants and when He wants. We also have our own desires at heart, and finally, there's the devil, who is doing everything in his power to deceive us.

2 Timothy 3:16 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness'
Only the Bible is the living Word of God that will never pass away. Thus making the Bible having higher authority on Earth than everything, including pastors, teachers, me, you, and other Christians, other human beings, angels etc. It is the living Word of God and we ought to live by it.

Basically you're telling me that you are completely unqualified to interpret scripture and that explains why all those other people who are also completely unqualified to interpret scripture have created dozens of denominations and thousands of independent churches. Right, Got it! Now I know.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Good Day, Xeno

Historically this has always been an issue. You conflate two things that are really unrelated the nature of Scripture ( God produced "Breathed out from God") and the (understanding and agreement of men).

I would suggest there is much agreement maybe not 100%,

Basil of Caesarea: On the history of views of scripture

Basil of Caesarea (Ad 329-379): Liberated from the error of
pagan tradition through the benevolence and loving kindness
of the good God, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by the operation of the Holy Spirit, I was reared from the very
beginning by Christian parents. From them I learned even in
babyhood the Holy Scriptures which led me to a knowledge of
the truth. When I grew to manhood, I traveled about frequently
and, in the natural course of things, I engaged in a great many
worldly affairs. Here I observed that the most harmonious
relations existed among those trained in the pursuit of each of
the arts and sciences; while in the Church of God alone, for
which Christ died and upon which He poured out in
abundance the Holy Spirit, I noticed that many disagree
violently with one another and also in their understanding of
the Holy Scriptures. Most alarming of all is the fact that I found
the very leaders of the Church themselves at such variance
with one another in thought and opinion, showing so much
opposition to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so
mercilessly rendering asunder the Church of God and cruelly
confounding His flock that, in our day, with the rise of the
Anomoeans, there is fulfilled in them as never before the
prophecy, ‘Of your own selves shall men arise speaking
perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.’
Witnessing such disorders as these and perplexed as to what
the cause and source of such evil might be, I at first was in a
state, as it were, of thick darkness and, as if on a balance, I
veered now this way, now that—attracted now to one man,
now to another, under the influence of protracted association
with these persons, and then thrust in the other direction, as I
bethought myself of the validity of the Holy Scriptures. After a
long time spent in this state of indecision and while I was still
busily searching for the cause I have mentioned, there came to
my mind the Book of Judges which tells how each man did
what was right in his own eyes and gives the reason for this in
the words” ‘In those days there was no king in Israel.’ With
these words in my mind, then, I applied also to the present
circumstances that explanation which, incredible and
frightening as it may be, is quite truly pertinent when it is
understood; for never before has there arisen such discord
and quarreling as now among the the members of the Church
in consequence of their turning away from the one, great, and
true God, only King of the universe. Each man, indeed,
abandons the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and arrogates
to himself authority in dealing with certain questions, making
his own private rules, and preferring to exercise leadership in
opposition to the Lord to being led by the Lord. Reflecting
upon this and aghast at the magnitude of the impiety, I
pursued my investigation further and became convinced that
the aforesaid cause was no less the true source also of secular
difficulties. I noticed that as long as the common obedience of
the others to some one leader was maintained, all was
discipline and harmony in the whole group; but that division
and discord and a rivalry of leaders besides proceeded from a
lack of leadership. Moreover, I once had observed how even a
swarm of bees, in accordance with a law of nature, lives under
military discipline and obeys its own king with orderly
precision. Many such instances have I witnessed and many
others I have heard of, and persons who make profession of
such matters know many more still, so that they can vouch for
the truth of what I have said. Now, if good order with its
attendant harmony is characteristic of those who look to one
source of authority and are subject to one king, then universal
disorder and disharmony are a sign that leadership is wanting.
By the same token, if we discover in our midst such a lack of
accord as I have mentioned, both with regard to one another
and with respect to the Lord’s commands, it would be an
indictment either of our rejection of the true king, according
to the Scriptural saying: ‘only that he who now holdeth, do
hold, until he be taken out of the way,’ or of denial of Him
according to the Psalmist: ‘The fool hath said in his heart:
There is no God.’ And as a kind of token or proof of this, there
follow the words: ‘They are corrupt and are become
abominable in their ways.’ Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9,
Preface on the Judgment of God (New York: Fathers of the
Church, Inc., 1950), pp. 37-39.

In Him,

Bill

Okay, I see. So holy scripture is perfect and crystal clear but we're all a bunch of idiots who cannot understand the crystal clarity of the holy scriptures and that explains why there are thousands of independent churches and dozens of denominations. Okay, that all makes no sense whatever if you want to tell me that sola scripture is the one true way of reading the bible, because you and I are both not competent to interpret scripture anyway, being sinful and all, so we simply cannot comment, right?