Obedience Comes by Fear, but Faith by Hearing!

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the Lord told us to love, pray, and do good towards our enemies.
I believe Jesus was able to call them harsh things and condemn them because He is the Lord God Almighty who knows things that we cannot possibly know. But this does not mean that God loves those in hell or God's love still abides on the wicked when they are being judged by God with physical death.

Paul speaks harshly about Judaizing teachers that want Gentile Christians to be circumcised by saying Gal. 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

So did Paul not Love some fellow Jews?

Your reply here is not related to the point I was making. My point was that the love of God does not abide on those in hell or on those who are condemned to death or those who have used up their chances to repent. Do you believe God still loves those in hell or do you believe God loves while He physically destroys the wicked (like at the time of the global flood). If so, what biblical proof do you have for this? I do not get the impression that the love of God abides on those who are in hell, or those who are losing their life by a condemnation by God.

Wow! Now we get to your real problem with God’s Love, by saying: “then nobody could ever end up in hell”. Godly type Love is a huge topic with books being written on it. You might read CS Lewis’ book “The Four Loves”.

Did Jesus say to love others differently? While there is a love that is different between a marriage and a friend, at the heart, love is the same in that we should be loving in both our emotions, and loving in our actions to all. We should not have respect of persons. Anyways, I am not a big C.S. Lewis fan because he admitted that he struggled with the occult and it shows in his Chronicles of Narnia books.

Godly type Love, forgiveness, charity, and atonement are all transactions and not just one sided. Both parties have a part to play, but it is not “work” to correctly receive a gift. Not correctly receiving the gift is not God’s fault and does not take anything away from God.

I think folks like to overcomplicate things. There is a love by being affectionate with people and there is a love whereby we love them with our deeds. I believe this breaths in harmony with each other. Yes, the way we love others can take on additional different forms (like with a wife). But at the heart, love involves our emotions and showing affection, and by loving in our deeds.

Think about the prodigal son story:

If the son never returns to the father (cruelly dies in a hell on earth), does that show the father did not Love the son?

I think you do not understand what I am trying to say.
God loves mankind by allowing them time and space to repent, and by dying for their sins.
God shows love for them while they are alive. But if they refuse to repent, and they die, then... the love of God leaves them. So while the love of God can be shown for a son, that does not mean that the son will always have God's love if that son goes to hell or that son is condemned with the Wrath of God for their refusal to repent.

You know what I am talking about

Actually, I don't know because I cannot read minds like the Lord can. Many believers on this forum have odd beliefs.

If the son never returned to the father in the prodigal son story, when did the father quit Loving the son?

But this is not a situation where the son died physically and went to hell. Yes, I believe God can and does love the lost but it is only while they are alive. But after they die and go to hell, there are no second chances and there is no love of God in hell.

 

[Strong in Him]

Many of us hear the word of God but we will see in the scriptures that Fear bring forth Obedience.

I don't know about you but I obey from love, not fear.
Perfect love casts out all fear.

 

[Strong in Him]

Let's take a look at some situation that happen by not pay attention to protocol. These little details are very important to understand.

Let’s go into 1 Chronicles 13: 6 And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, that is, to Kirjath-jearim, which belonged to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth between the cherubims, whose name is called on it. 7 And they carried the ark of God in a new cart out of the house of Abinadab: and Uzza and Ahio drave the cart. 8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. 9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God. 11 And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzza: wherefore that place is called Perez-uzza to this day. 12 And David was afraid of God that day, saying, How shall I bring the ark of God home to me? 13 So David brought not the ark home to himself to the city of David, but carried it aside into the house of Obed-edom the Gittite. 14 And the ark of God remained with the family of Obed-edom in his house three months. And the LORD blessed the house of Obed-edom, and all that he had.

Let’s skip right over to 1 Chronicles 15: 1 And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent. 2 Then David said, None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites: for them hath the LORD chosen to carry the ark of God, and to minister unto him for ever. 11 And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites, for Uriel, Asaiah, and Joel, Shemaiah, and Eliel, and Amminadab, 12 and said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it. 13 For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order. 14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel. 15 And the children of the Levites bare the ark of God upon their shoulders with the staves thereon, as Moses commanded according to the word of the LORD.

another situation….

Let’s go into Number 21: 4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. 5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. 10 And the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in Oboth.

So we see that the people who had faith (Belief) in what God told Moses, looked upon the serpent of brass and was healed. Those who didn’t look died, because of no faith.

Another Situation….


Let’t take a look Jonah 1: 1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, 2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. 3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. 4 But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken. 5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep. 6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not. 7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah. 8 Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou? 9 And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land. 10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them. 11 Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous. 12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you. 15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging. 16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows. 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Now Nineveh is the Assyria, they took out the 9 tribes of Israel from Samaria. The 10th tribe, Levi returned ti Judah. So Jonah tried to flee from God’s commandment to go to Nineveh, but we see that you can’t hide from God.

Let’s continue in Jonah 2: 1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Let’s continue in Jonah 3: 1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

So out of fear of the Lord, Jonah went to Nineveh to warn the people there, and out of faith (belief) in God’s word and fear, the people of Nineveh repented and God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Most of these are OT.
People then did not have a personal relationship with God, did not know that Christ died while they were still sinners, Romans 5:8, or that he had reconciled them to God, Romans 5:11, or that in Christ they had every spiritual blessing, Ephesians 1:3.

 

[tturt]

There is a type of fear that we need to have.

God teaches those who decide to have the fear of the Lord - that's what Pro 1 states including. "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:" Pro 1:29

The fear of the Lord is loving Him, giving Him honor, respect, devotion, right worship, serving Him, being submitted and obeying His Word, His will. " ..we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" (Heb 22:28). Having the fear of the Lord is the true and acceptable way of worshipping the Lord (Benson commentary).

The fear of the Lord -
-"...causes men to depart from evil (Pro 16:6),
- Can be taught - teach children to have the fear of the Lord (Psa 34:11).
- Having the fear of the Lord means we love Him and what He loves and hates what He hates (Psa 97:10, Pro 6:16-19).

Having the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, knowledge, instruction, and is the fountain of life (Pro 1:7, 9:10, 14:27). How to have the fear of the Lord: (Pro 2:1-5).

"The reverent, worshipful fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it rests satisfied; he cannot be visited with [actual] evil." Pro 19:23

-"The reverent fear and worshipful awe of the Lord [includes] the hatred of evil; pride, arrogance, the evil way, and perverted and twisted speech I hate." (Pro 8:13).
-It "...prolongs one’s days..." (Pro 10:27) and can be continuous (Pro 23:17).
-"In the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children shall always have a place of refuge." (Pro 14:26)
-"By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches, and honour, and life." (Pro 22:4)
"The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant" (Psa 25).
-It's a treasure (Isa 33:6l), and

Some discount it because it's emphasized in the OT. But if there's not an understanding then the church won't walk in it as they did in earlier times.

-churches walked in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:31).

Plus "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him,, and make our abode with him." John 14:23

 

[bling]

Your reply here is not related to the point I was making. My point was that the love of God does not abide on those in hell or on those who are condemned to death or those who have used up their chances to repent. Do you believe God still loves those in hell or do you believe God loves while He physically destroys the wicked (like at the time of the global flood). If so, what biblical proof do you have for this? I do not get the impression that the love of God abides on those who are in hell, or those who are losing their life by a condemnation by God.

The first huge issue is: trying to put God into some kind of time frame (Giving God a before and after in human time). When we say “God Loved them before something happened and God quit Loving them after something happened”, may not be even possible for God existing throughout human time.

We agree at least that God Loves all humans at some time. You have pointed out that God hates some humans at least at some time and God does some really big tragedies to some humans at some times, but I pointed out that does not proof God does not still Love them.

Christ is our example of God being here on earth and I do not see Christ not Loving everyone.

Do you belief God is outside of human time, or do you belief God is limited by time?

Did Jesus say to love others differently? While there is a love that is different between a marriage and a friend, at the heart, love is the same in that we should be loving in both our emotions, and loving in our actions to all. We should not have respect of persons. Anyways, I am not a big C.S. Lewis fan because he admitted that he struggled with the occult and it shows in his Chronicles of Narnia books.

The word “Love” in the English conveys lots of different meanings, Godly type Love is way greater than any other “love”, unlearnable, not something you instinctively have, you cannot develop it, you cannot just be commanded to “Love” or else and “Love” with Godly type Love. Godly type Love is not a knee jerk reaction, it is not emotional (it can actually go against your emotions), it is a gift from God that can grow with use. A Being with Godly type Love, Loves because of who they are and not who you are or what you have done or even will do. This Love is part of their character, part of their personal thought-out decision to Love. God Loves us, because that is who God is and really in spite of what we have done, are doing or will do.

It is not “logical” for God to Love humans because He personally gets nothing from us and we give Him a big hard time. Look how much “good” Christ got from the 12, He chose to Love, and think how hard it would be for Him to watch them all run away when He was being taken away.

But this is not a situation where the son died physically and went to hell. Yes, I believe God can and does love the lost but it is only while they are alive. But after they die and go to hell, there are no second chances and there is no love of God in hell.

Do you belief God is outside of time?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The first huge issue is: trying to put God into some kind of time frame (Giving God a before and after in human time). When we say “God Loved them before something happened and God quit Loving them after something happened”, may not be even possible for God existing throughout human time.

We agree at least that God Loves all humans at some time. You have pointed out that God hates some humans at least at some time and God does some really big tragedies to some humans at some times, but I pointed out that does not proof God does not still Love them.

Christ is our example of God being here on earth and I do not see Christ not Loving everyone.

Do you belief God is outside of human time, or do you belief God is limited by time?

Well, I used to believe God existed in all points in time (past, present, and future) because I was a fan of time travel books and movies many years back. Fiction had influenced me to think this way.

In fact, the most popular belief among Christians is that God exists in all points in time. However, does God really exist in all points of our time? Does God exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously?

While God most certainly has the power to do this, I do not think this is the case when we look at Scripture.

For example:

If God rested (stopped from His work) on the 7th day, and God existed in all points in time, this means that God would still be working in the past in creating everything on the 6 day creation.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).

Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever. Jesus only did this once. For all time!!!

But if God existed in all points in time, God would still be doing this right now. He would be sacrificing Himself more than once. But He would be sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over again. As if God was a slave to time or something. But I do not believe that is the case. Nowhere does Scripture tell us that God exists in some past dimension. Also, nowhere does God say that He is in the future right now, either. Yes, God is our future because our end is in Him, but God does not exist in all points in time.

So I don't see God and time in the same way you do. While God knows the future with pinpoint precision, that does not mean God is existing in some future dimension that has not happened yet for us. Folks are filling up their heads too much with time travel fiction to think straight when they should get their truth on God and time from the Bible instead.

The word “Love” in the English conveys lots of different meanings, Godly type Love is way greater than any other “love”, unlearnable, not something you instinctively have, you cannot develop it, you cannot just be commanded to “Love” or else and “Love” with Godly type Love. Godly type Love is not a knee jerk reaction, it is not emotional (it can actually go against your emotions), it is a gift from God that can grow with use. A Being with Godly type Love, Loves because of who they are and not who you are or what you have done or even will do. This Love is part of their character, part of their personal thought-out decision to Love. God Loves us, because that is who God is and really in spite of what we have done, are doing or will do.

This is a huge error.

You say, I quote:

“Godly type Love, Loves
because of who they are and not who you are
or what you have done or even will do.”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

You said godly type love is not in anything you will even do.

However, Jesus says:

“If ye keep my commandments,
ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

Jesus says if you keep my commandments (something a person is capable that they can do) you shall abide in my love.

You also said,

“...you cannot just be commanded to “Love”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

However, Jesus does give us the two greatest commandments, and they are based on love.

“...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Mark 12:29-31).​

Godly type Love... you cannot develop it,

This is not true.

While God can help us to increase in love (1 Thessalonians 3:12), our keeping His Word is how the love of God in our lives is perfected.

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

It is not “logical” for God to Love humans because He personally gets nothing from us and we give Him a big hard time. Look how much “good” Christ got from the 12, He chose to Love, and think how hard it would be for Him to watch them all run away when He was being taken away.

You said, I quote:

“He [God] personally gets nothing from us”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

This is not true according to the Bible.
God is well pleased when we obey Him.

“But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.”
(Hebrews 13:16).

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
(Philippians 2:13).

“Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.”
(Colossians 3:20).

“Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.” (1 Thessalonians 4:1).

 

[Bro.T]

Most of these are OT.
People then did not have a personal relationship with God, did not know that Christ died while they were still sinners, Romans 5:8, or that he had reconciled them to God, Romans 5:11, or that in Christ they had every spiritual blessing, Ephesians 1:3.

That's true, but Paul says in Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

 

[Bro.T]

I don't know about you but I obey from love, not fear.
Perfect love casts out all fear.

THat's true....it's always good to fellowship in the word of God, and to check our walk from time to time. Because the bbok say in 1 John: 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Bro.T]

And yet....
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

In 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Sin that are past, not future) 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Bro.T]

We are on the offencive and have the power to win every battle.

That's true, but sometime the flesh gets weak.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Sin that are past, not future) 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[HIM]

In 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Sin that are past, not future) 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

How is 1 Jo related to the clause, "For obedience to the faith." Faith being the result of the new heart and mind through Christ Jesus. His Word, His Law in our hearts and minds.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[HIM]

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

The NET misses the boat on Jo 1:8. They went from being a translation to paraphrasing.

Sin is a noun in verse eight. It is a state of being not a state of action. For example I see a women and she is fine and my mind and heart starts to dwell on that. Then just as quickly the Spirit says no. So I confess or mind you assent with the Spirit, Christ my state of being, my sin before it becomes a verb, an action and God cleanses, separates this from me.

 

[bling]

Well, I used to believe God existed in all points in time (past, present, and future) because I was a fan of time travel books and movies many years back. Fiction had influenced me to think this way.

In fact, the most popular belief among Christians is that God exists in all points in time. However, does God really exist in all points of our time? Does God exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously?

While God most certainly has the power to do this, I do not think this is the case when we look at Scripture.

For example:

If God rested (stopped from His work) on the 7th day, and God existed in all points in time, this means that God would still be working in the past in creating everything on the 6 day creation.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).

Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever. Jesus only did this once. For all time!!!

But if God existed in all points in time, God would still be doing this right now. He would be sacrificing Himself more than once. But He would be sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over again. As if God was a slave to time or something. But I do not believe that is the case. Nowhere does Scripture tell us that God exists in some past dimension. Also, nowhere does God say that He is in the future right now, either. Yes, God is our future because our end is in Him, but God does not exist in all points in time.

So I don't see God and time in the same way you do. While God knows the future with pinpoint precision, that does not mean God is existing in some future dimension that has not happened yet for us. Folks are filling up their heads too much with time travel fiction to think straight when they should get their truth on God and time from the Bible instead.

God existing throughout time does not go against scripture, since we know God uses humans understanding and words to explain things.

It gets really complicated when you start talking about God in time. God could have a sequencing of events in the Spiritual realm totally separate from human time.

With the little science humans have it has been shown experimentally for the last 100 years, time is relative and no experiment has shown anything different, so time is being shown so far to be relative. The question is: “How relative would time be for God”, since it also appears, information would have to travel faster then the speed of light for God to be “everywhere” at the same moment.

If you say: “God knows perfectly all of man’s free will choices ahead of time (for both man and God)”, then man cannot choose to do something differently and thus this is not a free will choice.

The first thing you have to determine is: “How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

If I know unquestionable a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but would God, if He is outside of time, have knowledge of everything historically throughout time?

God at the foundation of the earth, can write historically the results of human actions throughout time.

You can replay in your mind tragedies you have been though, so how good could God replay those tragedies in His mind? Would that be like replaying the event again for God?

Time helps us live through previous tragedies (we forget stuff over time), but would God ever forget?

This is a huge error.

You say, I quote:

“Godly type Love, Loves
because of who they are and not who you are
or what you have done or even will do.”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

You said godly type love is not in anything you will even do.

However, Jesus says:

“If ye keep my commandments,
ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

Jesus says if you keep my commandments (something a person is capable that they can do) you shall abide in my love.

You also said,

“...you cannot just be commanded to “Love”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

However, Jesus does give us the two greatest commandments, and they are based on love.

“...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Mark 12:29-31).​

​

Can a person obey a command to “Love” because they are commanded to Love?

Jesus is talking to existing believers about obeying to show their Love and yes the Holy Spirit can not stay in a sinner loving on him.

But here Jesus talks about “anyone”:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Love is the key here, so if you do see someone obeying Jesus’ teachings, you know he/she Loves Jesus.

1 Cor. 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

You cannot do anything righteous without first having Love and if you do Love you obey and those who obey you know are Loved and are loving.

Trying to tell someone they will obtain Love by obeying, leaves out the fact: you first have to Love to obey. Yes! If they do obey, they have Love and are being Loved.

When the authors write to Christians about obeying, they already have a portion of Godly type Love because they are Christians, so this would not be said to non-Christians.

Yes our Love can grow with use, but you first have to obtain this Love and the only way I see anyone first obtaining this type of “Love” is by what Jesus taught us in Luke 7: he that is forgiven much Loves much. When a person humbly accepts God’s pure charitable forgiveness for an unbelievable debt, that person will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Can non-Christians obtain Godly type Love another way?

This is not true.

While God can help us to increase in love (1 Thessalonians 3:12), our keeping His Word is how the love of God in our lives is perfected.

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).



You said, I quote:

“He [God] personally gets nothing from us”
~ Quote by: Bling.​

This is not true according to the Bible.
God is well pleased when we obey Him.

“But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.”
(Hebrews 13:16).

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
(Philippians 2:13).

“Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.”
(Colossians 3:20).

“Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.” (1 Thessalonians 4:1).

If we obeyed to the maximum and actually did everything right would that not also be the minimum requirement?

Luke 17: 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

I am not saying we cannot please God, but that “pleasure” is far out weighted by all the sacrifice God has to make.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The NET misses the boat on Jo 1:8. They went from being a translation to paraphrasing.

Sin is a noun in verse eight. It is a state of being not a state of action.

Not true. Sin is wrong action or transgression of God's laws.

For it is written:
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4).

For example I see a women and she is fine and my mind and heart starts to dwell on that.

If a person dwells on lusting after a woman even for a few seconds, it is committing adultery in one's heart and one is in danger of hellfire. For it is written:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

Then just as quickly the Spirit says no. So I confess or mind you assent with the Spirit, Christ my state of being, my sin before it becomes a verb, an action and God cleanses, separates this from me.

Just acknowledging your sin is not really what is in mind when you confess of sin. First, confessing of sin is done with a godly sorrow. “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Corinthians 7:10). Second, confessing your sin is exactly what that means. It means to confess your sins literally to Jesus Christ. It means to seek forgiveness of your sins with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer. For we see this in Luke 18:9-14, and Psalms 51.

“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16).

Judas knew he sinned when he betrayed the Lord, but he did not have a godly sorrow but he had a wordly sorrow. He knew he sinned before God but that is not enough to just admit that you sinned, but we actually have to seek forgiveness with the Lord in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. We have to then make good on our confession to Jesus (i.e. seeking forgiveness with the Lord) and we have to put away that sin out of our lives. For if we intend to sin again as if we cannot help it, we are not really sorry about our sin but we are loving our sin more than God. Jesus said, “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. ...”

1 John 1:8 is written as a warning to the brethren about the gnostic false belief that is popular now today that says one can sin and still be saved (While they do sin). For a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4 would contradict the OSASer's interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God existing throughout time does not go against scripture, since we know God uses humans understanding and words to explain things.

It gets really complicated when you start talking about God in time. God could have a sequencing of events in the Spiritual realm totally separate from human time.

With the little science humans have it has been shown experimentally for the last 100 years, time is relative and no experiment has shown anything different, so time is being shown so far to be relative. The question is: “How relative would time be for God”, since it also appears, information would have to travel faster then the speed of light for God to be “everywhere” at the same moment.

If you say: “God knows perfectly all of man’s free will choices ahead of time (for both man and God)”, then man cannot choose to do something differently and thus this is not a free will choice.

The first thing you have to determine is: “How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

If I know unquestionable a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but would God, if He is outside of time, have knowledge of everything historically throughout time?

God at the foundation of the earth, can write historically the results of human actions throughout time.

You can replay in your mind tragedies you have been though, so how good could God replay those tragedies in His mind? Would that be like replaying the event again for God?

Time helps us live through previous tragedies (we forget stuff over time), but would God ever forget?

Again, if God was outside of time and everything already happened already for Him in human time, then that would mean God is interacting with human time simultaneously in all points of human time. Again, this would be a contradiction of what we read in Scripture. God would not really be resting on the 7th day because He would be creating the six day creation in the past (human time). Hebrews 10:12 says,

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Hebrews 10:12).​

Again, if God was outside of time, and He interacted with all points in human time all at once and He is still doing this, then that means the Lord Jesus is still sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. But Hebrews 10:12 says he offered one sacrifice for sins forever. Forever is all time of eternity. No more is the Lord going to do the events of the cross over again. The Catholics believe they re-sacrifice Christ over and over in their mass, and I believe this is wrong.

You want God to be separate from human time while God is also outside of human time, but this cannot be so. God interacts with human time. So if God interacts with human time, He would be connected to human time even if He was in another dimension that was outside of our time. But if this is so, then we cannot believe the account in Genesis in that God rested on the 7th day, or that Jesus gave one sacrifice for sins forever according to Hebrews 10:12.

Can a person obey a command to “Love” because they are commanded to Love?

Jesus is talking to existing believers about obeying to show their Love and yes the Holy Spirit can not stay in a sinner loving on him.

But here Jesus talks about “anyone”:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. Love is the key here, so if you do see someone obeying Jesus’ teachings, you know he/she Loves Jesus.

So how does a person love Jesus? You see it as only the result when this is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus says, “if you love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Jesus did not say, “those who love me will keep my commandments.” It would be like saying, “if you want the job, come tomorrow at this same place at 2:00PM.” To believe in Jesus is even a command (1 John 3:23). To repent is a command (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To believe in the gospel is used with words that sound like a command (Mark 1:15). Jesus tells us to come to Him (Matthew 11:28), which sounds like the Lord telling us to do something (i.e. a command).

Anyways, you are ignoring the fact that the two greatest commandments given to us by Jesus are based on love (i.e. To love God, and to love your neighbor) (See: Mark 12:29-31). If love is something a person must first receive only (Note: Yes, I believe it possible to receive God's love), then God commanding men to love Him, and others would be a contradictory concept. To love includes one seeking to obey those grace commands in being saved by Jesus, and then continuing to follow Jesus after that. A person can stop loving the Lord even after they are saved by God's grace. We are told in Scripture to keep ourselves in the love of God (See: Jude 1:21).

1 Cor. 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

You cannot do anything righteous without first having Love and if you do Love you obey and those who obey you know are Loved and are loving.

Trying to tell someone they will obtain Love by obeying, leaves out the fact: you first have to Love to obey. Yes! If they do obey, they have Love and are being Loved.

When the authors write to Christians about obeying, they already have a portion of Godly type Love because they are Christians, so this would not be said to non-Christians.

Yes our Love can grow with use, but you first have to obtain this Love and the only way I see anyone first obtaining this type of “Love” is by what Jesus taught us in Luke 7: he that is forgiven much Loves much. When a person humbly accepts God’s pure charitable forgiveness for an unbelievable debt, that person will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Can non-Christians obtain Godly type Love another way?




If we obeyed to the maximum and actually did everything right would that not also be the minimum requirement?

Luke 17: 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

I am not saying we cannot please God, but that “pleasure” is far out weighted by all the sacrifice God has to make.

We have to understand that not everything is cookie cutter in the way we want it to be. Yes, generally a believer first seeks forgiveness of their sins with Jesus and the Lord (Who is the love that abides in them). But I believe there are other cases whereby that those who just believe are given power to become sons of God (John 1:12). In John 14:23, we learn this truth.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).​

So it appears that a man can love Christ before the Lord Jesus and the Father can make their home or abode within them. God can work in a person's heart, but they have to respond. They have to choose to love. A person can love if they see the love of God on the cross. A person can be convicted of their sin by the Spirit and they want a way out from their sin and condemnation, and they want to love God from that point in their life. Again, I say that love is a choice for all men because God commands them to love with the two greatest commandments. You cannot command love if love is something that just happens to them as a result of doing something else. We have to accept the whole counsel of God's Word and not just the part of the Bible we want to be true. They are called the two greatest commandments for a reason. If something else was before these two great commands, then they would not be the two greatest commandments.

Side Note:

While the two greatest commandments were given to Jews, who were believers (Deuteronomy 6:4-6) (Leviticus 19:18) (with the full 1st greatest command later fleshed out or given to us by Jesus in Mark 12:29-30 with Him saying, “thou shalt “love the Lord thy God... with all thy mind,”), we have to understand that the goal of the Jews was to evangelize the Gentiles (Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 60:3). So this means that the two greatest commandments were for all men. For God always intended for Gentiles to be saved by the Jews. This is what happened but it was not by the Jewish nation, but it was by a Jewish man and His select Jewish followers instead. The goal of the great commission was to go out to all nations and to teach whatever Jesus commanded the disciples. This would include the two greatest commandments. Salvation only first went out to the Jews during Christ's earthly ministry, but after He was risen, Jesus commanded His disciples to go out unto all nations and to teach His commands.

 

[Bro.T]

How is 1 Jo related to the clause, "For obedience to the faith." Faith being the result of the new heart and mind through Christ Jesus. His Word, His Law in our hearts and minds.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

How is 1 Jo related to the clause, "For obedience to the faith." Faith being the result of the new heart and mind through Christ Jesus. His Word, His Law in our hearts and minds.

There is a process for gaining or having a new heart through Christ Jesus. Repenting is not an over night thing or event. But that's the start,
if we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law.

You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord.

Let's go to Roman 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).

 

[Bro.T]

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Thats was pretty good, how you broke down all those different mind sets of belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thats was pretty good, how you broke down all those different mind sets of belief.

Thanks. But all glory to God for any spiritual truth He has revealed to me.