Obama floats idea of mandatory voting

[ebia]

Jury service in only an obligation on the infrequent occasions that you are called, and even then it's not difficult to get out of.

Irrelevant.

It sounds like a pretty good reason to me. Do you think the stupid and ignorant voting is a good thing? The idea that more people voting is inherently better makes nosense to me.

I'm not sure there correlation between choosing to vote and being smart and well informed is as strong as you suppose.

If we actually wanted to restrict it that way we could easily implement a test. Or, in the case of Australian upper house elections, abolish voting above the line.

In so far as democracy is a good idea at all the better the participation the better it works, all else being equal. If we don't want democracy at all then get rid of it.

 

[MoonlessNight]

The problem isn't that people are too stupid to vote, it is that they are unwilling to vote. The vote is supposed to represent the preferences of the one voting, but the only way to actually find the preferences of anyone is if that person is willing to honestly answer. There is no way that you can force someone to give an honest answer to a question if that person is unwilling.

So mandatory voting will result in a large number of votes which are meaningless in terms of representing the populace. In many cases they will be votes which are deliberately entered in such a way that they cannot be interpreted. What is the point of collecting such votes in the first place?

Honestly, the assumptions that go into thinking that mandatory voting would do any good are so utopian that we might as well say that a dictatorship would work because the dictator could always know the will of the people and would never counteract it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jury service in only an obligation on the infrequent occasions that you are called, and even then it's not difficult to get out of.

Voting is infrequent. Once every four years for the president, governors, house of reps, and a third the senate. Once mid presidential term for the house of reps and a third of the senate. So you're asked to vote once every two years for federal and state level political representation. Local government and local officials elections can remain voluntary if one wishes it. Thus one's need to participate in voting need not be a burden to anybody.

It sounds like a pretty good reason to me. Do you think the stupid and ignorant voting is a good thing? The idea that more people voting is inherently better makes nosense to me.

Beware of elitism because you may find yourself excluded from voting if you fail to fit an elite's definition of worthy voters. If those you've characterised as stupid and ignorant are entitled to vote then be thankful because those that you consider not to be such have classed all of them and yourself too to be worthy to vote.

 

[ebia]

The problem isn't that people are too stupid to vote, it is that they are unwilling to vote. The vote is supposed to represent the preferences of the one voting, but the only way to actually find the preferences of anyone is if that person is willing to honestly answer. There is no way that you can force someone to give an honest answer to a question if that person is unwilling.

So mandatory voting will result in a large number of votes which are meaningless in terms of representing the populace. In many cases they will be votes which are deliberately entered in such a way that they cannot be interpreted. What is the point of collecting such votes in the first place?

A deliberately entered no vote (either not marking the paper or spoiling the paper) is still a conscious partipation in the process. There's nothing wrong with that, and if you find that rises above the normal baseline that's actually voters sending a deliberate message to the politicians - a valuable feedback.

Mostly people don't vote because they are disengaged with the process, which then leads to them not bothering to be informed. Compulsory voting goes a useful way towards reversing that. People tend to work towards justifying what they do; get them voting and will improve their understanding in order to justify to themselves the way they vote.

On the other hand if you've got participation around 50% - or even worse - then you've given up on the basics of democracy.

Honestly, the assumptions that go into thinking that mandatory voting would do any good are so utopian that we might as well say that a dictatorship would work because the dictator could always know the will of the people and would never counteract it.

Compulsory voting doesn't fix every problem with democracy - nobody suggests it will. But Australia has done it and it does improve things. It massively improves participation, which massively improves representation. and it produces a culture where people talk more meaningfully around that democratic process and the decisions that are being made. It produces a culture where exclusion from the process by whatever means is less acceptable. It forces the electoral system to work hard to make sure everyone eligible is enrolled and is able to vote

Of course we've seen time and time again on the internet that the idea that the United States could possibly learn anything from the way another nation does things won't even be considered.

I came from a more normal system (the UK) and compulsory voting seemed bizarre at first. But once you've seen it working it its definitely an improvement

 

[Sumwear]

Eh?

Australia does have manditory voting. Elections are held on Saturdays. There are no days off.

If you have factors that are stopping people from being able to vote you need to fix that.

great for australia. doesn't negate other countries who hold general elections on a weekday and where people actually have a day off to vote.

 

[ebia]

great for australia. doesn't negate other countries who hold general elections on a weekday and where people actually have a day off to vote.

If people are unable to vote because of work thats something that needs to be fixed, however you do it. Otherwise you are disenfranchising people, especially the poor.

Its not hard to fix. You can move voting to a weekend, you can make sure there are sufficient voting places to make it quick and easy, you can make early voting or postal voting available and easy to access, you can do it electronically, you can keep polling stations open from early in the morning to late in the evening, ...

And having compulsory voting shifts the populations expectations, which in turn shifts employer expectations. "I need to disappear for half an hour to vote" becomes acceptable. Or in my case last Federal election, "I'll be two hours late for work and still only managing it by manipulating a bus driver into driving me to the High Commission and back", but thats an oddity.

"We cannot have compulsory voting because some people cannot vote" is the worst of all possible reasons for not having it. It's saying "our system is badly broken and we don't want to fix it"

 

[MoreCoffee]

great for australia. doesn't negate other countries who hold general elections on a weekday and where people actually have a day off to vote.

If your country's system is broken then fix it.

 

[Sumwear]

Compulsory voting doesn't fix every problem with democracy - nobody suggests it will. But Australia has done it and it does improve things. It massively improves participation, which massively improves representation. and it produces a culture where people talk more meaningfully around that democratic process and the decisions that are being made. It produces a culture where exclusion from the process by whatever means is less acceptable. It forces the electoral system to work hard to make sure everyone eligible is enrolled and is able to vote

Of course we've seen time and time again on the internet that the idea that the United States could possibly learn anything from the way another nation does things won't even be considered.

I came from a more normal system (the UK) and compulsory voting seemed bizarre at first. But once you've seen it working it its definitely an improvement

you're comparing a country of 23 million+ to country of 318 million+. in my voting district, I would have to wake up in the early hours and pray to God that I get to vote by nightfall if ever mandatory voting came to pass. this with various polling stations put in place. there are also other reasons why one would refrain from voting. even though we have parties such as the green, libertarian, constitutional and the like, let's be realistic here, republican and democrat are the only two that matter in the long run.

 

[Sumwear]

If your country's system is broken then fix it.

I already said give people off for that day. We're one of the few places that have some schools open and have people go to work.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I already said give people off for that day. We're one of the few places that have some schools open and have people go to work.

Well put that idea to your local representative, senator, or the president. Maybe the state reps and governor too.

 

[Sumwear]

Well put that idea to your local representative, senator, or the president. Maybe the state reps and governor too.

are you implying others have not insisted it? heck, we are an overworked country with few days off [not including federal workers] and one of the days that constantly come up with regards to having more additional days off is election day.

 

[ebia]

you're comparing a country of 23 million+ to country of 318 million+. in my voting district, I would have to wake up in the early hours and pray to God that I get to vote by nightfall if ever mandatory voting came to pass.

If people have serious trouble getting to vote thats a democratic disaster that needs fixing.

And its no more trouble to fix in a country with 318M than 23M. There are the same number of hours in each day, and the same technologies available. (And I doubt your voting papers are worse than ours).

Its easy enough to fix, and needs to be fixed. There's no point giving everyone the right to vote if you don't make it possible to ensure everyone can vote. We spend a small fortune trying to make sure everyone in Afghanistan can vote, for pity's sake.

this with various polling stations put in place. there are also other reasons why one would refrain from voting. even though we have parties such as the green, libertarian, constitutional and the like, let's be realistic here, republican and democrat are the only two that matter in the long run.

Well, that needs fixing too, but thats another matter.

Compulsory voting doesn't force you to vote for someone likely to win, or even to force you to cast a valid vote. In australia you are required to mark the paper - in any way you like.

 

[ebia]

are you implying others have not insisted it? heck, we are an overworked country with few days off [not including federal workers] and one of the days that constantly come up with regards to having more additional days off is election day.

Whether its a day off or some other solution, compulsory voting provides a very good lever to change things so that everyone can vote.

 

[MoreCoffee]

are you implying others have not insisted it? heck, we are an overworked country with few days off [not including federal workers] and one of the days that constantly come up with regards to having more additional days off is election day.

Then stop complaining, if you have complained, when the president talks about making voting compulsory.

It's a good idea

 

[ebia]

in my voting district, I would have to wake up in the early hours and pray to God that I get to vote by nightfall if ever mandatory voting came to pass.

Why? Are the polling stations open too few hours? Are there too few of them?

 

[Sumwear]

If people have serious trouble getting to vote thats a democratic disaster that needs fixing.

or perhaps the logistics isn't feasible.

And its no more trouble to fix in a country with 318M than 23M. There are the same number of hours in each day, and the same technologies available. (And I doubt your voting papers are worse than ours).

actually, each state differs in how they vote.

Its easy enough to fix, and needs to be fixed. There's no point giving everyone the right to vote if you don't make it possible to ensure everyone can vote. We spend a small fortune trying to make sure everyone in Afghanistan can vote, for pity's sake.

we do the same for our soldiers.

Well, that needs fixing too, but thats another matter.

in essence, why mandatory voting isn't coming any time soon.

Compulsory voting doesn't force you to vote for someone likely to win, or even to force you to cast a valid vote. In australia you are required to mark the paper - in any way you like.

what you are postulating is nothing more than a wasted vote, which is nothing more than wasting time.

Whether its a day off or some other solution, compulsory voting provides a very good lever to change things so that everyone can vote.

or just stick with what other countries do and that is have people have the right to either vote or not.

 

[Sumwear]

The stop complaining, if you have complained, when the president talks about making voting compulsory.

It's a good idea

I have no qualms with giving people off on election day and I think it's ridiculous that we don't. but I am not siding with mandatory voting.

Why? Are the polling stations open too few hours? Are there too few of them?

few of them. long lines already as is. and that's with only a percentage of the people voting on any given election. with mandatory voting, I expect nothing less than pandemonium and headaches.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I say three cheers for compulsory voting!

 

[ebia]

or perhaps the logistics isn't feasible.

Of course its feasible.

actually, each state differs in how they vote.

Then they can each fix it and each needs to.

we do the same for our soldiers.

so you can do it for people at home

in essence, why mandatory voting isn't coming any time soon.

That [the two-part-fix-up] isn't a reason against compulsory voting.

what you are postulating is nothing more than a wasted vote, which is nothing more than wasting time.

Wrong. Participation in the process is never wasted. It leads toward change.

or just stick with what other countries do and that is have people have the right to either vote or not.

The right to vote is worse than useless if not everybody can vote. It gives power to those who can and not those who cannot.

 

[football5680]

If Jury duty is compulsory then why not voting?

Many people also try to get out of jury duty. Why force the same system on voting when Millions of people still come out and vote? We do not have to take advantage of the rights we have if we choose not to.