O.T. Violence

Not David

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.
 

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The people in the OT who God ordered destroyed had it coming.

Furthermore, human rights come from God. No one can take them away but God. He exercised that authority.

EDIT: And I just realized which forum this is in. Mods can do what they wish with this.
 
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HTacianas

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.

The violence done in the old testament was the same as to say "make war" against those who opposed God and His plan for humanity. The killing of men, women, and children during war was not the rules of war made by God, but the rules made by men. War was defined by man. God said make war.

Now if we think about it, it has been Christianity that has tamed war over the years. We say that "no Christian would do those things". What would we say of war if it were defined by the government of China or the Islamic State? We would fight wars against them under their terms.
 
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Not David

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The violence done in the old testament was the same as to say "make war" against those who opposed God and His plan for humanity. The killing of men, women, and children during war was not the rules of war made by God, but the rules made by men. War was defined by man. God said make war.

Now if we think about it, it has been Christianity that has tamed war over the years. We say that "no Christian would do those things". What would we say of war if it were defined by the government of China or the Islamic State? We would fight wars against them under their terms.
Ok, so it wasn't God who make those terms?
 
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HTacianas

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Ok, so it wasn't God who make those terms?

If we forget for a second the old testament and anything it might say. If the Egyptians had warred against the Philistines, what rules would they have fought under? Would they have agreed to only fight under our modern laws of war or would they have behaved themselves much like the old testament describes war? They would have killed men, women, children, taken captives into slavery, executed prisoners, and anything else we would find abhorrent in modern times. But God never told either the Egyptians or the Philistines how to go about fighting war, so their rules of warfare could not have come from God. They had to create for themselves the concept of war, so when God told the Israelites to make war against their enemies, he meant war as fought at the time, even though He never made the rules of war.
 
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SinoBen

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.

This is going to be a long story, but the man to follow is Dr Michael Heiser. He is one of those key people that sets up milestones for the church.... in my opinion :) You will do a lot of reading but for a quick short cut go here The Giant Clans and the Conquest - Dr. Michael Heiser

Hope that helps. Any questions just ask.
 
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Pethesedzao

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.
God HATES the wicked, He always has.
 
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ArmyMatt

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.

it was for their ultimate salvation, as well as ours.

so, as an example, precisely because God established the nation of Israel for the Messiah to be born in, when Christ died, those who were killed in Canaan were offered salvation (as is everyone) when Christ preached to those in hades. had God not established Israel, those very people when they died, would have stayed dead no matter what.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.
Hi it does not say the young boys were killed but mauled by the bear. God destroyed the entire world once with a flood and preserved life through Noah.
“Hear, O Israel: You are to cross over the Jordan today, and go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourself, cities great and fortified up to heaven, 2 a people great and tall, the descendants of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you heard it said, ‘Who can stand before the descendants of Anak?’ 3 Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Therefore understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.
God then put a conditional covenant of blessing and cursing on Israel which still holds to the everlasting covenant with Abraham that this promised land would be an eternal unconditional covenant to the nation that came from him. We see God now twice has punished Israel with expulsion from the land. Now both times he has restored them. If you think the OT alone has the violence the end of the age and 2nd coming will be horrific. The day of vengeance of God is Jesus treading the wine press of wrath and all his garments will be stained with blood in that day. The climax of prophecy is the 2nd coming of Jesus which will bring in the promised reign of peace and righteousness. This is the destruction of antichrist false prophet and Satan being bound. This is the Joseph moment for Israel when they see Jesus is God and has saved them from certain destruction. this is when they are born again and have Gods laws written on their hearts and minds.

here is synopsis of Zech 14
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
 
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icxn

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God HATES the wicked, He always has.
Indeed, God hates the wicked thoughts and passions in our heart that are allegorically denoted by the seven nations that He commanded Israel and every one of us to utterly destroy. Every irrational anger (men) and desire (women) along with ignorance (children) and their respective actions (beasts and infants). In the Old Testament God used visible images and events to teach many spiritual lessons and, imo, this was the main reason for ordering/arranging/allowing them, aside from historic circumstances. Of course, like Fr. Matt said, He gave an opportunity for salvation to those who 'played' the role of the 'bad guy,' when Christ preached to those in Hades.
There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys.
St Maximus has an explanation for that:

Some said that the children were not Israelites but of the gentiles and not children in age but childish in character. Also, having seen the prophet performing many miracles, they did not believe, but mocked him. Therefore, God allowed the bears to attack them, so that His name would not be blasphemed and people weak in faith would not be scandalized. Allegorically, every bald-headed mind, that is, every mind that has cast off any attachment to material things (these are the hair), in its ascent to spiritual knowledge is mocked by sensual thoughts (denoted by the number 40) and by thoughts of matter and form (denoted by the number 2). When the mind is tempted by such thoughts it must arm itself with prayer and send the two bears, love and desire for God, to eradicate the mocking thoughts from its memory and thus be allowed entrance to the realm of mystical contemplation which is beyond conceptual images. That is why after the event the prophet went up to the mountain of Carmel. Carmel interpreted means "knowledge of circumcision" and we know that spiritual circumcision is the cutting off from our heart of all the passionate attachments to the flesh.​
 
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Not David

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Indeed, God hates the wicked thoughts and passions in our heart that are allegorically denoted by the seven nations that He commanded Israel and every one of us to utterly destroy. Every irrational anger (men) and desire (women) along with ignorance (children) and their respective actions (beasts and infants). In the Old Testament God used visible images and events to teach many spiritual lessons and, imo, this was the main reason for ordering/arranging/allowing them, aside from historic circumstances. Of course, like Fr. Matt said, He gave an opportunity for salvation to those who 'played' the role of the 'bad guy,' when Christ preached to those in Hades.

St Maximus has an explanation for that:

Some said that the children were not Israelites but of the gentiles and not children in age but childish in character. Also, having seen the prophet performing many miracles, they did not believe, but mocked him. Therefore, God allowed the bears to attack them, so that His name would not be blasphemed and people weak in faith would not be scandalized. Allegorically, every bald-headed mind, that is, every mind that has cast off any attachment to material things (these are the hair), in its ascent to spiritual knowledge is mocked by sensual thoughts (denoted by the number 40) and by thoughts of matter and form (denoted by the number 2). When the mind is tempted by such thoughts it must arm itself with prayer and send the two bears, love and desire for God, to eradicate the mocking thoughts from its memory and thus be allowed entrance to the realm of mystical contemplation which is beyond conceptual images. That is why after the event the prophet went up to the mountain of Carmel. Carmel interpreted means "knowledge of circumcision" and we know that spiritual circumcision is the cutting off from our heart of all the passionate attachments to the flesh.​
Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.
 
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icxn

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Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.
That God hates is a valid scriptural phrase. It is a discription of His perceived activity (energy) towards those who act contrary to His will. Think of ice cream (God): it is delicious to (loved by) a healthy person, but harmful (hateful) to those with lactose intolerance.
 
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dzheremi

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Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.

God does not hate people. He is the lover of mankind. But that doesn't mean that He loves everything we do, and when we get out of line, He sometimes has to do things that we would think rather extreme in order to prevent us from further falling into the clutches of demons.

God hating is completely scriptural, by the way. Consider Deuteronomy 12:31, which is a warning not to follow the practices of idolaters who burned their children in worship:

You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.

we also must remember that God's hatred, like His wrath, is born out of His love, and is therefore unlike any worldly understanding of hatred.

so God's hatred of the unrighteous is nothing like Hitler's hatred of the Jews or whatever.
 
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Pethesedzao

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Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.
When i say that God hates I mean that those who do not believe in Jesus will never ever see God.
 
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Pethesedzao

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Thanks, that was informative but how can God hate? That would imply a change on his character and God does not change.
He only loves those who love and are totally devoted to His Son Christ Jesus our LORD.
 
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Pethesedzao

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To the OP:

Why does God allow (or even condone) suffering? We don't know; in a way isn't this what the book of Job was about? i.e our limited perspective doesn't allow us to know God's mind.
God cannot contradict what He has said.
 
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buzuxi02

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There has been a couple of threads based on this topic but I would like to know why God allowed to exterminate entire populations even infants or allow Elisha to send bears to kill young boys. It just seems against the character of God shown in the Orthodox faith of a God who loves mankind. I mean, it would make sense in a Calvinistic way where God gets glory out of the damnation and destruction of people.
God doesnt do it, man does. I always find it intriguing that modern day people find the tribal warfare of primitive peoples scandalous when 2000 years after Christ walked the earth Christian nations go to war and bomb cities into oblivion like it's a normal thing.
 
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