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Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by FreeGrace2, Sep 25, 2021.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Jesus has given us an answer to that question. Those who believe in Him for savlation possess eternal life (John 5:24). And recipients of eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28).
    NO NO NO. He NEVER "told US" that. He started His conversation with a rich young ruler that. He wasn't telling him the gospel. He was getting to the heart of the problem with that RYR. The RYR said he had kept the commands from his youth. However, Jesus knew that he loved his wealth way more than he loved God. So, in fact, this RYR couldn't keep the very first commandment, which Jesus proved to him. That is the reason why he went away sad. He loved his wealth. Above God.

    Your conflict is shown by your presumption that what Jesus told the RYR is the gospel. It's far from the gospel.

    What Jesus was saying is that to "gain eternal life" one MUST BE PERFECT.

    Are you perfect? No, you are not. In fact, NO human being is perfect. That's why Christ came to earth, to die for all sins. So we can be saved.

    In Rom 3 Paul emphasized the fact that all are sinners. "No one is good, not even one."
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    So you think that God finally "gives up" on His truly bad children?
    You're going to have to quote Scripture that says this. I've never seen any.

    I know what the lake of fire is. But it seems you don't know what the gospel is, since you think that what Jesus said to the RYR is the gospel and how to be saved.
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Scripture teaches that His "truly bad children" will be painfully disciplined, which may include physical death. There are many examples in Scripture.
    Please read Hebrew 12 to learn about God's painful discipline. And 1 Cor 10.

    You need to quote any Scripture that says that anyone who possesses eternal life can die again spiritually.

    I refuse to believe what the Bible doesn't say.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I imagine you are referring to Matt 7:21-23. If so, you've missed the point by a mile.

    The crowd who were begging to get into the kingdom were basing their entrance on what THEY HAD DONE. There is NO mention of their faith/trust in what Jesus DID FOR THEM.

    It doesn't take a lot of spiritual discernment to see this.

    We know that NONE of that crowd were EVER saved because Jesus told ALL of them, "depart from Me, for I NEVER knew you".

    How could Jesus say that He NEVER knew a "former believer" or whatever word you want?
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Theology Matters Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’m not understanding this post since you are the OP. So I’ll ask this in hopes to move the discussion forward. Do you believe that biblical covenants have blessings and cursings?
     
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I don't have to. It only means that the elect will be saved. That doesn't necessarily include those who merely predict that they're numbered among that group. The best criteria we have is our fruit. If we're obeying the commandents, if were doing good works, if, IOW, we're loving reasonably well, then we can have a strong level of assurance that we're His and heading His direction. Assurance, not perfect assurance. That would be God's province.
    You can make unsupported assertions all day long but I easily reconcile Matt 19:17, Rom 2:7, Rom 2:13, Rom 8:12-13, James 2:24 with John 10:28, Eph 2:8 and any other isolated verse that might seem to conflict at first glance, or require some mental gymnsatics in order to reconcile. But I don't need to do so. The early church and early fathers all understood that we'll be judged on what we do while in the body, motivated by the love God's placed in us, or not motivated by that if we end up being a lazy servant, unwilling to invest his talents with loss of place in the kingdom at stake. Anything else is a novel idea you've bought into.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I told you I'm done with asking. I've asked you EVERY TIME I posted to you to explain yourself. But you NEVER do.

    This thread is not about covenants. They were never mentioned. Why you are so obsessed with them I guess will remain a mystery.

    Anyway, you have my questions. If you really want a discussion, then please answer my questions.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Jesus was clear about WHEN a person possesses eternal life. John 5:24 says whoever believes possesses eternal life.

    Then, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN one believes) SHALL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.

    Can you prove that these verses don't really mean what they say? Or just explain to me what they actually mean, if you can. Thanks.
    The biblical word for saved people is 'believer', not "elect". Jesus was The Chosen (elect) One, but never needed to be saved. He is, in fact, The Savior.

    In fact, election isn't even about being chosen for savlation. However, if you think there are any verses that clearly indicate that election is to salvation, please share.

    This sounds as if fruit production assures salvation. Really??

    Please provide any of these so-called "unsupported assertions" that you charge me with.

    Oh, yes you do. If you value credibility. Charges are easy to throw, but not so easy to prove.

    This is all true. However, none of this has any effect on our salvation.

    Why do you think it does?
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Theology Matters Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I see. You are the OP, but you want to be on the offensive, and not actually defend your position. That’s all I needed to know.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to discuss, then just answer my questions. My position is in the title of this thread. Where the word "covenant" isn't.
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    You can use whatever term you like but the point is that God knows those who are His and they will be saved and their names are written in the Book of Life and He, alone, knows with absolute certainty while we don't.
    Yes, we cannot make ourselves just, we cannot justify ourselves; God does that. Really. Then we're expected to walk in that justice/righteousness, cooperating in working out our salvation with Him. We can always turn back away from God in this life. Grace is resistible. He won't overide our wills at the end of the day.
    Ah but you've been doing that all along. You throw out one or two verses; I responded with several to support my position, along with the historic Christian faith, and you simply ignore it all, favoring private interpretations that have infiltrated the true faith for many.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Theology Matters Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I thought most Christians believed that the new covenant had to do with salvation. If that’s not your view, I’d be interested to know what you think the new covenant is about.
     
  13. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    No, clearly I was not serious. But that is what it sounds like you are saying. No, the Church was not disorganized or “not unified” at the beginning.

    On the contrary, they were very unified. It was later that false teachers entered in and distorted the message. The very first sermon in the very beginning of the Church is very telling. the men who had been there 50 days earlier demanding Jesus’ execution were convicted by the Spirit through Peter’s message. And they asked, “What shall we do?” They were NOT yet saved. They had not yet repented. They had not yet obeyed the Gospel. That is what they were asking; what do we have to do to be saved from God’s wrath over what we have done. And what did Peter tell them? Did he say, “There is nothing you need to do. You already believe, and Jesus did it all on the Cross.” NO!! He told them to Repent and be baptized so they can receive forgiveness of sins. And as a result they will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    This is the exact same message all through the NT, but because it has already been recorded by the Spirit, He doesn’t feel the need to repeat it in every recording of the message of salvation. But He does once in a while repeat Himself, like in the story of Paul’s conversion in Acts 22. Reading verse 16, Ananias tells Saul, “Now, what are you waiting on? Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
    Let me ask you, why did Saul need to “arise (stand up) to be baptized if this is Spirit baptism? Why did he need to make haste? Why was he still in sin three days later if he was saved when he believed on the road?

    No, it is clear that this is referring to water baptism, and that it is during water baptism that sins are removed. Not by water baptism, but during.

    Yes, Cornelius received the miraculous power of the Spirit before water baptism. Now if water baptism were purely symbolic, as you claim, then there would be absolutely no need for it in this instance. Everyone there has already seen the Holy Spirit fall in tongues of fire, so there would be no need to water baptize them. But the Spirit fell on them before they had even heard the name of Jesus (Acts 11:15). He fell on them “As I (Peter) began to speak.” Cornelius had not yet believed (which you have already said must be done before a person can be saved), so he could not have been saved by the miraculous power of the Spirit being given to him.

    Seen Acts 22:16 above.

    I am sorry you were offended by my earlier response.
    Yes, I am certainly able, and willing, to give a defense for the hope that is within me. But it is senseless to repeat myself over and over again, when you can go back to earlier post and read what I have already written.

    Yes, all versions use “symbolizes”, or a phrase that means that, but read it again. To what is it referring?
    The water of the flood symbolizes the water of baptism, and the water of baptism now saves you. Not the water literally washing your sins away, but the Spirit meeting you in the water and removing your sins (giving you a clear conscience) by the power of the resurrection of Christ.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    The biblical word for saved people is 'believer', not "elect". Jesus was The Chosen (elect) One, but never needed to be saved. He is, in fact, The Savior.

    In fact, election isn't even about being chosen for savlation. However, if you think there are any verses that clearly indicate that election is to salvation, please share.
    Of course. Except, those who have put their trust in Christ alone for eternal life can also know with absolute certainty.

    1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    I KNOW with absolute certainty that I have eternal life.

    The verse about "working out our salvation" refers to our spiritual growth, or the present tense of salvation; being saved from the power of sin. This occurs ONLY through maintain fellowship with the Lord through confession of sin (1 Jn 1:9), and being filled with the spirit (Eph 5:18).

    Yes, believers can turn back away. Jesus made that clear in Luke 8:13. However, your second sentence is nonsense.

    Once a son, ALWAYS a son. Or prove me wrong from Scripture.
    Once a believer, NEVER condemnation. John 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12.
    Once sealed, ALWAYS sealed. Eph 1:13,14

    There are NO verses that UN-do any of these things.

    No, that's just talking over each other. You should address my verses and show me how they can't be meaning what they say.

    Prove that my claims are "private interpretations".

    If I'm wrong it should be easy to refute my claims. Truth always wins over untruth.

    Be my guest.

    Just quoting your verses as if that trumps my verses proves nothing.

    btw, the verses I quote actually SAY what I claim. Unlike yourself.
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to discuss, then just answer my questions. My position is in the title of this thread. Where the word "covenant" isn't.
    Seems all you do is stall. Never answer questions, never explain yourself.

    Rather, I'd be interested in your answers to my questions. Which it seems I'll never get.
     
  16. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    No, they can't.
    I've done that.
    And just quoting your verses likewise proves nothing, other that you can read and have an opinion about what you've read. My intepretations are also consistent with the historic Christian faith for anyone who's researched the matter at all seriously. And others on this very thread, going by Scripture alone as you do, nonetheless sincerely disagree with your views while presuambly considering themselves to be as objective and Spirit-guided as yourself. I'll just present the faith a bit later, with some background, rather than continung to trade jabs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Theology Matters Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Like I said, you are the OP, not me. And it’s obvious why you don’t want to answer my question concerning the new covenant (or New Testament, if you prefer). You know I’m correct about covenants having both blessings and cursings, and you have no category for cursings in your theology.

    Or, you just don’t really understand covenants, and would rather deflect than try to learn something that would throw your theology into a tailspin.

    Or perhaps it is something else entirely. Regardless, it appears that you will do anything you can in order to avoid discussing the New Testament.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    And I NEVER suggested that it was.

    What wasn't "uniform" was the reception of the Holy Spirit.

    What do you think "cut to the heart" means then?

    Even believers need to be saved from God's wrath.

    Rom 13:4 - For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

    This is about governments. They are "God's servants, agents of wrath on the wrongdoer". Why would you think believers are excluded from this wrath?

    Eph 5:6 - Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

    Written to believers. This is how ch 5 opens:
    3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
    4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

    Red words to believers. Blue words refer to what believers SHOULD NOT DO.
    Green words explain WHY the behaviors in v.3 SHOULD NOT be done.

    From an online commentary:
    1. Baptism and Repentance in Acts 2:38
      Curtis Vaughan, Commentary on Acts, has an interesting footnote on p. 28 related to Acts 2:38.

      "The Greek word for ‘baptized’ is a third person imperative; the word for ‘repent,’ a second person imperative. This change from the more direct second person command to the less direct third person of ‘baptized’ implies that Peter’s basic primary demand is for repentance."

      This follows the preaching emphasis of John the Baptist (cf. Matt. 3:2) and Jesus (cf. Matt. 4:17). Repentance seems to be a spiritual key and baptism is an outward expression of this spiritual change. The New Testament knew nothing of unbaptized believers! To the early church baptism was the public profession of faith. It is the occasion for the public confession of faith in Christ, not the mechanism for salvation! It needs to be remembered that baptism is not mentioned in Peter’s second sermon, though repentance is (cf. Acts 3:19; Luke 24:17). Baptism was an example set by Jesus (cf. Matt. 3:13-18). Baptism was commanded by Jesus (cf. Matt. 28:19). The modern question of the necessity of baptism for salvation is not addressed in the New Testament; all believers are expected to be baptized. However, one must also guard against a sacramental mechanicalism! Salvation is a faith issue, not a right-place, right-words, right-ritual act issue!


      Aren't you aware that Cornelius, a Gentile, received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism?
    And Gal 3:2,5 are clear: the Holy Spirit is received on the basis of believing in Christ.

    2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
    5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

    I just gave you 2 places in the NT that refute your "exact same message all thru the NT".

    But He does once in a while repeat Himself, like in the story of Paul’s conversion in Acts 22. Reading verse 16, Ananias tells Saul, “Now, what are you waiting on? Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
    Let me ask you, why did Saul need to “arise (stand up) to be baptized if this is Spirit baptism? Why did he need to make haste? Why was he still in sin three days later if he was saved when he believed on the road?

    No, it is clear that this is referring to water baptism, and that it is during water baptism that sins are removed. Not by water baptism, but during.
    [/QUOTE]
    GAL 3:2,5 refute your claim. Cornelius refutes your claim.

    What did it gain him? You tell me.

    You don't know that. Presumption.

    Go back to the actual event, 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

    This doesn't indicate that Peter just started speaking. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    What you are saying here is that literal water symbolizes literal water. Nonsense.

    Peter said that the literal water of the flood (which saved NO ONE) symbolizes the "baptism that NOW saves you". iow, he was clearly referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which IS when one is saved. And this baptism does NOT include water.

    It is a REAL identification or baptism. Whereas ALL water baptisms are ritual, and symbolize something else.

    No, the text does NOT say that. This is your opinion only. But it makes no sense for anyone to say "literal water symbolizes literal water", which is basically what you are saying.

    The Holy Spirit doesn't "meet anyone" in the water.
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Of course. Except, those who have put their trust in Christ alone for eternal life can also know with absolute certainty.
    I prove it from 1 John 5:13. Apparently you don't believe what John wrote, it seems.

    My "opinion" is that the verses speak for themselves and don't need "explanation".

    And quoting verses absolutely does prove something. God's Word is powerful, yet you treat it as "proving nothing". Amazing.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Please stop! I'm tired of all your stalling. I asked you questions, and you are clearly not interested in answering.

    It sure is. You are doing what you have always done. Evade answering, evade explaining.

    If you don't want to answer questions, then you are free to quit posting here.

    Your antics are boring.
     
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