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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mlepfitjw, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's fine but learn about the Kingdom from Jesus. Not the Pharisees.
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    The law tells what is good and right. I don’t think it has changed, for example because:

    Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Mat. 5:17-19

    Jesus came to free people from the judgment. If there is no law, there is no judgment and then there would be no need for salvation (=forgiveness of sins).

    But, even if the law is valid, people should keep it, because they love God, not because they try to earn something.

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
    1 John 5:3

    Also, the law is not the condition for eternal life, righteousness is.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23
     
  3. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    The law of Moses with its 613 Commands and statues was in effect until Jesus died, with the caveat that the law is still in effect for the unredeemed, but not for Christians, who have died to the law, per Paul.

    God always has Law - we as believers are under the law of Christ, which is the law of Love, but not under the old covenant law of Moses.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The law was only for Israel. Not given to anyone else.
     
  5. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Now read the scripture that says the law was not meant for the righteous, but for the ungodly, because the law only serves to show what sin IS, and that we are sinners, and that Christians have died to the law.

    Those who aren’t yet redeemed are indeed under the law of Moses, but not Christians.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    this is not correct. The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (ten commandments).
     
  7. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    OR as said in the Lord's Prayer, 'Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth'. God's governance/Kingdom over man, rather than man's governance. The good news (Gospel) of the Kingdom. God's will, will supplant man's will.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's simple. Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only the born-again could see (Amillennialism). The Pharisees rejected his gospel and continued teaching a physical Kingdom of the future (Pre-Millennialism). Most reject Jesus' gospel of the kingdom and side with the Pharisees.
     
  9. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    It is still a matter of God's will being done, not man's.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But the big difference is, Christ's kingdom came in the time of the old Roman Empire. But most are blind and reject this thinking it is still in the future.
     
  11. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Yes it did. God's will was done in earth at the time as Jesus did only the will of the Father. The curse was broken and by the grace of God the Kingdom was made available to those loyal to the will of God rather than of man. But that was only the beginning of a long process leading to final salvation from the self serving world of man.

    The religion that was supposed to represent the Kingdom of God, therefore His governance that was contrary to the governance of man, at one point 1700 years ago turned away from God and His Kingdom to form an alliance with the governance of man. It broke allegiance with the Kingdom and went on from being a partner in crime with man's system to becoming an actual material king maker itself. Then it lost the ability for a time when it was wounded, but only last week it re-whored itself to the emerging global governance of man as a partner, not as an alternate system to the governance of man that it is supposed to be .
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    you do agree you still sin Everyday right, by omission if not by commission?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My life is not the standard. The Bible is the standard. So it has nothing to do with me, but it has everything to do with what the Scriptures say. Do you believe these verses or not? My guess is you don't believe them because I simply quoted them as my response, and you started to make it personal.
     
  14. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Its only personal if your mind interpret it as such, all of us sin everyday, that is what I am trying to say.

    So the Law cannot be written in our hearts, if we still sin everyday, that was my point. None of those verses you quoted claimed that the Law is in our hearts.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I quoted Scripture that demolishes your recent statements. Seeing you do not accept these verses in what they plainly say, I am moving on from talking with you. For the battleground is the Bible when it comes to the faith, and it is not any one person's life.
     
  16. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You already agreed all of us sin everyday, so which statement of mine have you demolished?
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You have an active imagination. Try reading Revelation 14:3-5 sometime.
     
  18. GraceBro

    GraceBro Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

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    The Law is still "intact." It is just not for Christians. It is for the lost to lead them to Jesus Christ.
     
  19. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    What is the Law other than that God's will is greater than man's will. Jesus proved that and it still applies.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When looking at the Old Law one can categorize the Old Testament Mosaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) into a threefold division:
    1. Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
    2. Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
    3. Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).
    Even before the written Law of Moses: We can see that there were Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.), and Ceremonial Laws (like: animal sacrifices).

    God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

    In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

    Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

    "When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

    ”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

    "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

    "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

    20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
    (Colossians 2:20-23).

    “By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

    "The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

    9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
    10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

    16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

    ”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

    27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

    50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

    8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

    “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

    “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

    “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

    28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

    7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

    “But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

    The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

    "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

    The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

    32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

    So it appears things have changed.

    This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

    In conclusion:

    You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
     
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