Nudists and Christianity.

pat34lee

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"ogled by perverts"; that's funny...:D

For what it's worth, during my first five years of being a nudist, almost no one saw me.

I usually chose remote outdoor locations alone, and only included a couple of friends once (and they weren't perverts).

The nudist resort my family and I go to is open all year, and has relatively few visitors during the winter, especially on weekdays. It's still very enjoyable, even alone.

Are you a mind reader? If not, how do you know your
friends are not perverts? They don't all drool and stare.
Perverts just have a twisted sense of values.

As I said, people are free to go nude privately. It's just
a problem when they involve others, especially children.
Taking kids to those places should be grounds to have
them taken away by CPS.
 
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pat34lee

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Principles are important. Biblical modesty focuses on being humble, and not boasting or showing off one's wealth. All through the Bible, the destructive effects of pride and coveting are warned against.

If God commanded against such detailed sins as weaving cloth from two different fibers and cooking a calf in its mother's milk, He surely would have issued commandments against such a universal and timeless condition as nudity, if it were offensive to Him.

When you live in a mostly desert climate, nudism is not going
to be a big issue. Too hot and sunny by day and too cold at night.
 
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pat34lee

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To make a comment about perverts being at nudist resorts is not understand those places.
Perverts do visit them .. if they keep going regularly they get healed. If they want to stay perverts they stop going as the environment isn't what they are looking for.

See post #101
 
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dayhiker

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Well, Pat, your comment in post #102 confirm to me that you don't know what you are speaking about.
Have you been to a nudist resort? You ask Darkhorse if he is a mind reader, have you even been to a place so you can observe the people that attend? Have heard how many people have been healed of problems they have by attending nudist resorts?
 
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Darkhorse

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Are you a mind reader? If not, how do you know your friends are not perverts? They don't all drool and stare.
Perverts just have a twisted sense of values.

As I said, people are free to go nude privately. It's just a problem when they involve others, especially children. Taking kids to those places should be grounds to have
them taken away by CPS.


The friends I was nude with were two other guys from my dorm during my first year of college. We lived on the same floor, had classes together, and talked nearly everyday. We were very open with each other, and knew each other very well. We were just 3 college guys skinny-dipping at a lake. They were not perverts.

This school had lots of drama majors, and many of them were perverts. They were housed together on the top floor of the other dorm. I became pretty good at spotting them.


Like Dayhiker said, the resorts do get a few perverts, but most of them are quite candid about their worldview, and many don't stay around long; the atmosphere is too "normal" for them.

My kids (both boys, now in their 20s) have been raised as nudists all their lives, and have been nude extensively at home, at beaches, and at resorts.

Anti-nudists probably think they're leering, lustful, foul-mouthed libertines, but the opposite is true. They are both virgins, are very mannerly and respectful of women, and it's real, not an act. They wouldn't think of going to a strip club or a inappropriate content site. They know that kind of nudity is "unclean" because they're very familiar with the clean kind.

Even CPS, who often aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, know there's nothing wrong with children being nude, and experiencing nudity with others (under the watchful eyes of their parents).

You impress me as a sincere brother in Christ who fears God and loves righteousness.
If you actually investigated nudism, you would be very surprised...
 
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AMOG

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The idea that nudity causes lust is laughable. Quite the opposite is true. Hiding the body behind clothing and asking us to imagine what is there is what feeds lust. When the naked body is normalized, and seen routinely, there is much less room for lust to take root.
 
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pat34lee

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Well, Pat, your comment in post #102 confirm to me that you don't know what you are speaking about.
Have you been to a nudist resort? You ask Darkhorse if he is a mind reader, have you even been to a place so you can observe the people that attend? Have heard how many people have been healed of problems they have by attending nudist resorts?

Do I have to jump in a geyser to know it's not
a good idea? Some people are fine with 'open'
marriages, which is no marriage. We know that
there are perverts and deviants of all types, and
nudism is just one of the outlets. Yes, it probably
feels good to express one's perversions without
others calling them that. Not healthy, but feels good.
 
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pat34lee

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The idea that nudity causes lust is laughable. Quite the opposite is true. Hiding the body behind clothing and asking us to imagine what is there is what feeds lust. When the naked body is normalized, and seen routinely, there is much less room for lust to take root.

Wrong verb. Nudity 'feeds' lust. And it deadens the
sensory responses to what should be an intensely
personal experience for a man and wife.
 
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pat34lee

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Even CPS, who often aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, know there's nothing wrong with children being nude, and experiencing nudity with others (under the watchful eyes of their parents).

You impress me as a sincere brother in Christ who fears God and loves righteousness.
If you actually investigated nudism, you would be very surprised...

Let me try asking a few simple questions.

Can you think of any possible problems with having naked
children, pre-pubescent to adolescent, around other naked
teens and adults of both sexes that are not related and that
you don't know?

Do the women not participate for 10-15 days a month?

What makes it necessary to be naked in front of others
rather than privately or as couples instead of groups?

My thoughts afterward, mainly on #3.
 
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Darkhorse

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Let me try asking a few simple questions.

Can you think of any possible problems with having naked
children, pre-pubescent to adolescent, around other naked
teens and adults of both sexes that are not related and that
you don't know?

Do the women not participate for 10-15 days a month?

What makes it necessary to be naked in front of others
rather than privately or as couples instead of groups?

My thoughts afterward, mainly on #3.



1) In my opinion, the most dramatic potential problem for nude youths around nude strangers is sexual abuse.

That's why I specified "under the watchful eyes of their parents" in post #105 above.

Most (if not all) nude resorts require parents to keep their kids under their supervision at all times, not because the risk of abuse is high (it isn't), but because the kids overall safety is a primary concern. The greatest hazard is probably drowning.

The staff and guests at nude resorts look out for each other in many ways, including kids. For example, our resort has a "Kidsfest" one weekend every June which features 2 days of games and activities for pre-teen kids. On our first Kidsfest a staff member approached me and asked if I had any kids in the Kidsfest. I said yes, and pointed out my two boys. She then explained that non-staff adults were not allowed to observe or participate unless they had kids involved. That's typical. An unknown adult speaking to someone else's kid may be confronted and advised not to do so. However, once the families know each other, everyone relaxes.

I know LOTS of girls & women (and a few males) who have been sexually abused, but NONE of them were the result of nudism.


2) Women are free to participate (or not) as they see fit.

I don't have any statistics, but plenty of women participate regardless of their periods.
Some wear shorts with pads, even though they can't use the pools or hot-tubs with shorts on.
Others use tampons and do all their usual activities while fully nude.

Periods never slowed my wife down...


3) What makes it necessary to sing in the church choir, or serve on church committees, or volunteer for potlucks? Those are group activities, not solitary pursuits.

Why are we advised in Hebrews 10:25 to keep "meeting together" instead of worshipping only in our own homes?

"Necessary" is the wrong word here; "beneficial" or "uplifting" or "inspiring" would be better.

Social nudity brings several benefits:

a) Greater closeness to God - This must sound strange to non-nudist Christians, but it's common for new nudists to feel a greater closeness to God when they're nude. It happened to me the first time (as described in my blog), and still does. I have a friend whom I met here on Christian Forums who used to be a legalistic, moralistic anti-nudist (his own description), who was led by God to begin praying nude at home. It completely changed his outlook, made him more genuine and less legalistic (his own description again), and now he joins my family at the nudist resort for one weekend each summer.

Many will say "I don't need to be nude to get close to God"
That's great, but some people benefit from seeing themselves the way God sees them: stripped of all pretense, unable to hide who they really are, not defined by possessions, just experiencing a genuine relationship.


b) Greater closeness to other people - not in a sexual sense, but again, with more genuineness and even vulnerability, and no pretense. Mind you, I DON'T want to be vulnerable with everyone, but people who become comfortable while nude usually find themselves being much more open with each other. I think it's a very primal understanding of our common humanity, knowing that we are "among our tribe".

c) an important lesson: "the rules of good behavior are the same, with or without clothes".
Almost everyone, especially young adults, benefit from this realization. Being nude isn't carte-blanche to go wild with sex or anything else; it's just...normal life without clothes.


An alternate question would be: What makes it necessary to be clothed in front of others?

If you think it was God clothing Adam & Eve, remember that they were about to be cast into a now-fallen world with "thorns and thistles", wild animals, and cold. They had no idea what to expect, or what to do about it. God, in His grace, made leather clothes for them to deal with their new, hostile environment. Remember, they were the only people on earth at that time. Who was God "hiding their nakedness" from? Each other?

Other reasons people think it's necessary to be clothed in front of others:

"modesty"? (which really means humility, not covering skin)
Why hide what everyone knows about?

morality? What makes it immoral? Temptation? Lust? Those happen with clothes also.
We are to avoid tempting others, but not everyone is tempted by nudity or anything else.
Some religions consider women without head coverings to be "shamefully exposed".

propriety? We are an odd culture: being seen in a swimsuit is OK, but being seen in underwear is taboo (and they both cover the same parts).
When people become comfortable with nudity, they realize all this concern with being covered is nonsense.

legality? Legal prohibitions of nudity have been slipping away for decades.
Roughly half of the U. S. states allow women to be topless in public, as long as they are not committing "lewd acts".
 
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pat34lee

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Last thoughts on the subject.

Back to Adam and Eve and the consequences of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...

Genesis 3:10
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked...

Nakedness before others is always tied to shame and fear and judgment.

Revelation 3:17-18
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Isaiah 47:3
Ezekiel 16:8
Hosea 2:9-10
Amos 2:16
Nahum 3:5
Habakkuk 2:15
 
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When you live in a mostly desert climate, nudism is not going
to be a big issue. Too hot and sunny by day and too cold at night.
On what do you base these statements? I couldn't connect them to your quoted post.
 
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The idea that nudity causes lust is laughable. Quite the opposite is true. Hiding the body behind clothing and asking us to imagine what is there is what feeds lust. When the naked body is normalized, and seen routinely, there is much less room for lust to take root.
You know it seems the forbidden is extremely sought after by the restricted.
 
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Let me try asking a few simple questions.

Can you think of any possible problems with having naked
children, pre-pubescent to adolescent, around other naked
teens and adults of both sexes that are not related and that
you don't know?

Do the women not participate for 10-15 days a month?

What makes it necessary to be naked in front of others
rather than privately or as couples instead of groups?

My thoughts afterward, mainly on #3.
The only things I know of that makes nakedness (being nude) are bathing and medical. Being naked isn't required for intimate reasons. I find clothing is used to hide or entice. It's very true clothing is required these days in all first world countries for general public apperances. This is primarily because of social conditioning. God created us to be without clothing. Vitamin D is free. Many get artificial vitamin D as an additive to some foods. The artificial substitute can make one sick. This is why anemic cases increase in winter especially in cooler climates.
 
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Last thoughts on the subject.

Back to Adam and Eve and the consequences of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...

Genesis 3:10
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked...

Nakedness before others is always tied to shame and fear and judgment.

Revelation 3:17-18
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Isaiah 47:3
Ezekiel 16:8
Hosea 2:9-10
Amos 2:16
Nahum 3:5
Habakkuk 2:15
If one is poor and naked, how do they purchase with gold?

White raiment isn't what is commonly called clothing by most these days. It certainly isn't what Paul says a woman should be clothed with. Most women I know certainly aren't clothed as Paul says they should be even with clothing. This was very apparent to me as a teen while without knowing what Paul said.
 
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Darkhorse

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Last thoughts on the subject.

Back to Adam and Eve and the consequences of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...

Genesis 3:10
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked...

Nakedness before others is always tied to shame and fear and judgment.

Revelation 3:17-18
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Isaiah 47:3
Ezekiel 16:8
Hosea 2:9-10
Amos 2:16
Nahum 3:5
Habakkuk 2:15



Saying "nakedness before others is always tied to shame and fear and judgment" is like saying "auto repair is always tied to dirt and grease and oil". True, but that doesn't mean auto repair is sinful or should be avoided.

An excellent essay exploring Biblical associations can be found here:

http://thebiblicalnaturist.blogspot.com/2015/05/god-doesnt-like-red-failure-of-guilty.html


Let's look in detail at Biblical nakedness (in groups of people, or alone)

UNFAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCES EXAMPLES SINS
vulnerability to deception Genesis 3 sin of disobedience
destruction of Babylon Isaiah 47 many sins, resulting in destruction
Israel's unfaithfulness to God Ezekiel 16 sins of following other gods and idolatry
Israel's unfaithfulness to God Hosea 2 sins of following other gods and idolatry
Israel's unfaithfulness to God Amos 2 sins of following other gods, idolatry, others
destruction of Nineveh Nahum 3 many sins, resulting in destruction
the coming exile of Israel Habakkuk 2 sins of following other gods, idolatry, others
spiritual poverty Revelation 3 sin of thinking that they don't need God


Oddly enough, Ezekiel 16:7-8 presents nakedness as the beauty and innocence of a virgin (Israel), whom God chooses to "marry". However, she later uses her beauty for adulterous purposes (alliances with pagan nations).

In Job and the Gospels, nakedness is presented as a result of poverty and deprivation. While these are not sins, they point to a human need (warmth) which these people are lacking.

So the "shame and fear and judgment" results from the unfavorable circumstances and sin, not from nakedness.


Focusing on Genesis 3, verse 11 is especially revealing. God asks: "Who told you that you were naked?", which can be interpreted at least two ways:


1) "Yeah, the angels and I had a good laugh watching you two cavort nekked as jaybirds, but somebody let the cat out of the bag, and playtime's over now."

This kind of statement is totally inconsistent with God's character, as revealed in Scripture.


2) "Where did you get a crazy idea like that?
You haven't been listening to serpents, have you?"

This aligns perfectly with the rest of the verse: "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”.


NOWHERE in the Bible does God command regular people to wear clothes, or to not be naked.
 
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