Nuclear 'waste' is the SOLUTION and could run the world for 500 years!

Stoneghost

Newbie
Mar 23, 2010
106
3
✟15,259.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we've been using it for hundreds of millenia. The reactor is a little too close to be safe, but the containment is top of the line and very economical. The Biggest problem with it is that it doesn't fit in to the capitalist system. We haven't yet figure out how to charge for the power.

:wave:
No need to be obtuse.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,198
821
California
Visit site
✟23,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No need to be obtuse.
So why are you?
We have a reliable fusion reactor. It may not be completely safe, but there is no problem with radioactive waste. There are a variety of ways to tap that power, more power than we can use. The only drawback is that it cannot be easily monopolized.

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
So why are you?
We have a reliable fusion reactor. It may not be completely safe, but there is no problem with radioactive waste. There are a variety of ways to tap that power, more power than we can use. The only drawback is that it cannot be easily monopolized.

:wave:

It's not reliable, it goes down every night and gets clouded over and fades into insignificance for whole seasons. It is most definitely NOT reliable! In fact, Professor of Climate Change Dr Barry Brooks says that in most cases, renewables should be called "Unreliables!"

Or, as I've already quoted: James Hansen says:
Can renewable energies provide all of society’s energy needs in the foreseeable future? It is conceivable in a few places, such as New Zealand and Norway. But suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.
Hansen warns not to drink sustainable energy Kool-Aid « BraveNewClimate

BTW - there is no problem of radioactive waste, it's the SOLUTION! We could run the world for 500 years on the radioactive waste we already have in storage ponds.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟298,148.00
Faith
Christian
It's not reliable, it goes down every night and gets clouded over and fades into insignificance for whole seasons. It is most definitely NOT reliable! In fact, Professor of Climate Change Dr Barry Brooks says that in most cases, renewables should be called "Unreliables!"

We seem to be obscuring the difference between renewable energy and fusion energy. Fusion energy on Earth isn't an option at the moment, whereas solar panels are an option.

IMO there is room (and need) for all forms of energy. As you note renewable energy isn't 100 percent consistent, nor is any other power source. I'd much rather that we do both than do one or the other. Any and every energy source that moves us away from dumping C02 and other carcinogens into the atmosphere is a good thing IMO.

BTW - there is no problem of radioactive waste, it's the SOLUTION! We could run the world for 500 years on the radioactive waste we already have in storage ponds.

FYI, while I agree with you on a lot of this debate, I think you're being more than a bit naive on this point. Radioactive waste is a problem it will continue to be a problem for a long time to come. Some of that waste "might' be put to better use and become part of a longer term solution, but not without a lot of effort and expense. Other forms of nuclear waste won't be easily converted to something useful, and will continue to be a "problem" for some time. I don't think it's helping your case to "oversimplify" the issue, and this seems to be your weakest argument IMO.
 
Upvote 0

Cromulent

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2011
1,248
51
The Midlands
✟1,763.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
While it is true that more modern reactor designs will be able to transmute fission products from older reactors, it's worth noting that they don't run off nuclear waste. They run off Uranium or Plutonium, generally, breed new fuel from U-238 or Thorium, and the neutron flux from this can burn off transuranics, the nasty ones in spent fuel that are radioactive for millenia.

I particularly like the idea of a molten salt reactor, it runs at atmospheric pressure, breeds its own fuel, the waste is safe after a few hundred years, and if it overheats, the fuel melts through a plug and drains out of the reactor into a subcritical , passively cooled storage area. The only problem is getting the materials to give it a useful service life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
FYI, while I agree with you on a lot of this debate, I think you're being more than a bit naive on this point. Radioactive waste is a problem it will continue to be a problem for a long time to come. Some of that waste "might' be put to better use and become part of a longer term solution, but not without a lot of effort and expense. Other forms of nuclear waste won't be easily converted to something useful, and will continue to be a "problem" for some time. I don't think it's helping your case to "oversimplify" the issue, and this seems to be your weakest argument IMO.

There are a variety of wastes, but most of the stuff sitting in cooling ponds can easily be fissioned away to about 10% of its mass and then is so 'hot' it only needs to be stored for about 300 years. It's simply NOT the problem you're pretending it is. Sure it is expensive to reprocess the fuel but fuel is really only a small fraction of the cost of nuclear power. Building the capital investment, the plant, is the main cost! Fuel is cheap, and reprocessing it worth it to keep the lights on and the money flowing in!

James Hansen supports GenIV Integral Fast Reactors being deployed as fast as we can commercialise them. I don't see why you're hedging your bets with unreliable sources of power that have to be backed by nukes anyway! Why try to 'back up' nuclear power with an unreliable source of power? That's just nuts! Power is so cheap these days precisely BECAUSE we know how to build baseload power plants. The 10% or 15% of the year they are down is largely planned, and we have a few extra plants running ready to back them up them. But the MORE time our power supplies spend down, the MORE extra plants we have to back them up. Not only that, but renewables are unreliable. You simply cannot book in when the wind is not going to blow, a month in advance, the way you book in a nuclear reactor's down time. It means you have to have all these other power plants in spinning reserve. It's madness!
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟298,148.00
Faith
Christian
There are a variety of wastes, but most of the stuff sitting in cooling ponds can easily be fissioned away to about 10% of its mass and then is so 'hot' it only needs to be stored for about 300 years. It's simply NOT the problem you're pretending it is.

If it was really as easy as you suggest, don't you think someone would have done it by now? Why hasn't someone made a fortune by charging the government to process the waste for them? I don't believe it's quite as "easy" as you suggest or it's likely someone would have figured a way to do it cost effectively already.

Sure it is expensive to reprocess the fuel but fuel is really only a small fraction of the cost of nuclear power. Building the capital investment, the plant, is the main cost! Fuel is cheap, and reprocessing it worth it to keep the lights on and the money flowing in!
One would think that if it was "worth it to keep the lights on", we'd already be doing it.

James Hansen supports GenIV Integral Fast Reactors being deployed as fast as we can commercialise them.
That's fine by me, but I'd like a design that doesn't go up in smoke during a power failure.

I don't see why you're hedging your bets with unreliable sources of power that have to be backed by nukes anyway!
For starters, our sun is not all that unreliable and solar panels do not tend to leak radiation when they fail, and they don't require years worth of environmental studies. :)

Why try to 'back up' nuclear power with an unreliable source of power?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
Because it's there and it's relatively cheap for starters. Wind energy is already as cost effective as a standard coal plant. PV systems are almost competitive with sequestration coal plants these days and they are increasing in efficiency all the time. Natural gas is cheaper, but mainly because we simply ignore the pollutants, and natural gas has remained relatively cheap. Secondly, most cars (and therefore most homes) will have a battery storage device within a decade. In case you had not noticed, gas isn't cheap anymore. Even a high mileage gasoline vehicle is unlikely to be much cheaper than about 10 cents a mile, whereas a good electric vehicle might bring the cost of a trip down to 3 cents a mile. Once the price of batteries comes down, and they become more efficient, electric vehicles will take off. They are already designing "smart homes" that can charge the car during optimal off peak hours and reuse the energy in the car during peak loads. That's the kind of technology that will make it easy to marry reliable and less reliable energy sources into one big electrical grid.

That's just nuts! Power is so cheap these days precisely BECAUSE we know how to build baseload power plants.
When you really look at the energy costs of an average family, energy isn't that cheap, particularly if they commute to work. Any serious switch to electric vehicles will require a lot more power from the US grid.

The 10% or 15% of the year they are down is largely planned, and we have a few extra plants running ready to back them up them. But the MORE time our power supplies spend down, the MORE extra plants we have to back them up. Not only that, but renewables are unreliable. You simply cannot book in when the wind is not going to blow, a month in advance, the way you book in a nuclear reactor's down time. It means you have to have all these other power plants in spinning reserve. It's madness!
It's not nearly as mad as you seem to think and electric companies are already balancing Photovoltaic loads and wind generation loads and power plant loads on a daily basis. There are some down sides to renewable energy of course, but there are a lot of pluses as well. Like I said, PV systems don't typically cause whole towns to be evacuated even when they fail catastrophically. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cromulent

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2011
1,248
51
The Midlands
✟1,763.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
The reason Gen IV reactors aren't in operation already is that they are pretty poor at producing weapons grade fissile material, which was where most of the money went to in the early days of artificial nuclear fission. Raising steam and turning turbines was a bit of an afterthought. Now conventional reactors are 50 years further developed, with all of the advantages in cost and efficiency that brings
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It's not nearly as mad as you seem to think and electric companies are already balancing Photovoltaic loads and wind generation loads and power plant loads on a daily basis. There are some down sides to renewable energy of course, but there are a lot of pluses as well. Like I said, PV systems don't typically cause whole towns to be evacuated even when they fail catastrophically. :)

True, but:-
* modern nukes CANNOT melt down like Fukushima! (google 'neutron leak safety systems').
* larger continents like Australia can have very remote nuclear energy parks so that even if they did leak (now impossible), what would it matter? Abandon that bit of desert for 300 years and move on to the next bit of desert.
* Hydro dam failures have killed hundreds of thousands of people.

NUCLEAR POWER HAS THE BEST SAFETY RECORD OF ANY MAJOR POWER SYSTEM AND EVEN BEATS WIND POWER ON A DEATH PER TERRAWATTS OF ENERGY SCALE! (More people fall of wind turbines per unit of energy generated that nuclear power has ever killed!)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
All fission plants have the potential for meltdown. Period.
No they don't. Period. Google 'neutron leak' or 'passive safety systems'. With technology we have had since the mid-1980's (and should have been installed in all older reactors!) we have much better exterior cooling systems than the older reactors. But even if they are all wiped out in some freak accident, the fuel rods themselves have a built-in failsafe: they are now designed to expand when they overheat. As they expand, they leak neutrons and the reaction shuts down. It's called 'walk away' passive safety. If Homer Simpson falls asleep at the wheel, the thing will look after itself.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Nuclear is a great solution for the near future. It'll give us lots of time and energy to secure a permanent solution to our energy needs.
AND it may soon prove cheaper than coal!

If interested, there's a FREE book by Tom Blees at the link below. He documents the Gen4 program at Argonne Labs. They're the people who studied the Gen4 Integral Fast Reactor waste-to-fuel program which was, sadly, abolished by Clinton. But there's hope. More and more nuclear scientists are demanding a 'retrial' of this technology, and new technologies are opening up with thorium which may prove cheaper than coal! Then there would be no need for cabon taxes, 'believing in' climate change (which I think is true and the result of decades of peer-reviewed research), and no need to tinker with the 'free market' for energy (with fossil fuels getting so many tax rebates there's nothing 'free' about this energy market, it's totally influenced by kick-backs!). But aside from all that, we as the general public should fight the myths and ignorance about nuclear power. So, to start this process, here's Tom Blees book "Prescription for the Planet", FREE, and with all the information on both nuclear power and PLASMA BURNERS which are another awesome technology I absolutely love! But read that chapter. It's mind blowing.
Two books on sustainable nuclear energy « BraveNewClimate
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,293
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,164.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I admit I haven't read much of this thread, so you may have posted about this, but are familiar with the warhead-to-fuel project in development in the US? France has done this for a few decades now but the US is getting on board now as well.
Yes, good old Megatons to Megwatts!

Currently, the electricity for 1 in 10 American homes, businesses, schools and hospitals is generated by Megatons to Megawatts fuel.[2]
If you live in America the chances are old Soviet nuclear warheads are now peacefully fissioning away to give you 10% of your electricity!

Megatons to Megawatts Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Agreed! What if they hadn't invaded Iraq and instead REALLY committed to Afghanistan and solved that conflict half a decade ago? What did Iraq cost... $2 trillion? More? Imagine if America had instead put some of that money into finishing Afghanistan, some into hospitals & education, and maybe HALF of it into nukes. You guys would be halfway towards fixing global warming and peak oil for your nation!

Hey, you have to either stop talking sense, or come over here so we can elect you.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So why are you?
We have a reliable fusion reactor. It may not be completely safe, but there is no problem with radioactive waste. There are a variety of ways to tap that power, more power than we can use. The only drawback is that it cannot be easily monopolized.

:wave:

No, the fact is the most powerful way we have of tapping into it, is by eating a piece of fruit. (Not really a global energy needs solution)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums