NT v. OT Prophecy & Going thru the Pastor

[LinkH]

I've had some interactions with some people I'd consider 'third wave' according to Wagoner's original definition, not some kind of charismatic fringe, but rather evangelicals who believe in the gifts, but are not part of the Charismatic movement culturally.

I overheard and participated in a discussion about this yesterday, and I am wondering if anyone is here who either believes, or is familiar with teachings on differences between how NT prophets v. OT prophets operate that are popular among third waves churches, or even NAR churches. How do churches who believe in 'covering' think prophesying should work. I know there is not just one answer.

Also, I'd like to discuss with those who believe or are familiar with teachings that prophecies need to first go through a pastor before being shared in church or elsewhere.

I was raised in the Pentecostal tradition. I spent many formative years in A/G churches and some time in an Independent Full Gospel church that seemed fairly generic Pentecostal.

If you suggest the idea of a prophecy having to go through the pastor before being shared with the congregation to a Pentecostal, they might object to the idea of the Holy Spirit having to get the pastors permission. Prophecies can be spoken out during a lull between songs, or just everything stops as if the musicians know, and someone speaks out a prophecy. The same with tongues an interpretations, at least in my experience.

The Bible says, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. And if a revelation comes to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace." It doesn't say pass the word to a pastor first, and if he lets you, speak. Paul, speaking of the gathering, says to let the prophets speak. And revelations arrive on the spot, too.

The NT/OT prophet thing... I'm trying to figure out a particular perspective on that. The gist I got is that some people believe that saying, "Thus saith the Lord" is wrong or first person prophecies are wrong, and you have to do a kind of wimpy sounding thing, "Maybe, I think, God might be saying that." But I can't find that in the Bible. None of the teaching on the nature of prophecy in the NT seems completely unique to NT prophecy-- e.g. prophesying in part, judging prophecies, etc. Acts shows a prophet giving a predictive prophecy.

I'm wanting to know others perspectives in a bit more detail. We can also discuss them or debate them in a godly edifying manner, etc.

 

[rdclmn72]

The problem with prophecy is that the lack of meaningful definitions gets in the way of any real discussion.
The example is then that of Zechariah who encouraged those who rebuilt the altar and temple.
He complied, and God would then reveal.
You don't have to go first person, the exhortations speak for themselves.
You don't have to go into the future, God sees past, present and future as one.
So should his people.

 

[Frogster]

Good OP, it captures how controlling pastors, can be in the way. Noe granted, they may want to have a protection device against weird stuff coming forth, but as the text says in the OP, "let them speak". I am not all that excited about personal words, and the exaltation of the prophet, who can gain too much power in the church, but anyway, interesting topic.

 

[Messy]

Good OP, it captures how controlling pastors, can be in the way. Noe granted, they may want to have a protection device against weird stuff coming forth, but as the text says in the OP, "let them speak". I am not all that excited about personal words, and the exaltation of the prophet, who can gain too much power in the church, but anyway, interesting topic.

Let them speak is when they have something from God. A lot don't so they check it first otherwise you have to stop them in the middle. In one church after one woman started to condemn everyone with her made up 'prophecy' I learned it had to be edifying. They just do a first test so the others don't have to hear crap.

 

[tturt]

The definition of edification includes instruction (http://biblehub.com/greek/3619.htm). Though we can usually tell if it's a critical tone or with hope and love.

What about churches with dozens of believers with prophetic giftings/manifestations?

Know that it doesn't say to run it by leadership but wouldn't it indicate a problem if the believer doesn't want to submit their word to a pastor?

 

[LinkH]

The definition of edification includes instruction (http://biblehub.com/greek/3619.htm). Though we can usually tell if it's a critical tone or with hope and love.

What about churches with dozens of believers with prophetic giftings/manifestations?

Know that it doesn't say to run it by leadership but wouldn't it indicate a problem if the believer doesn't want to submit their word to a pastor?

What I see in the Bible is that the church had an open floor where believers could speak (e.g. I Corinthians 14:26, Acts 15:5, c.f. Hebrews 10:24-25, I Peter 4:9-10.) Even believers from out of town could address the assembly, and of course, that left room open for problems if speakers said something wrong (Acts 15:1;15:3). Church elders, or else mature gifted members of the body had to correct the problems when they occurred or after the fact (Acts15:2, Titus 1:7-11). But they are not to disobey the Lord and do away with the open floor (I Corinthians 14:26, 37-38).

One of the things with prophecy is that God can give a prophecy to someone the night before or some time previously to write down, but it doesn't always come that way. Sometimes prophecies are revealed during a meeting (I Corinthians 14:30.) The Bible commands to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. (I Corinthians 14:29.) So the prophecy needs to first come out of the person's mouth before it's judged.

The Bible also does not present the idea that church meetings are all filtered through the pastor. I Corinthians 14 is the only passage which goes into great detail on how to conduct a church meeting. Pastors aren't even mentioned. Elders aren't specifically mentioned. Prophets are, so is one who speaks in tongues, one who interprets, 'every one of you' and 'ye.'

 

[Messy]

What I see in the Bible is that the church had an open floor where believers could speak (e.g. I Corinthians 14:26, Acts 15:5, c.f. Hebrews 10:24-25, I Peter 4:9-10.) Even believers from out of town could address the assembly, and of course, that left room open for problems if speakers said something wrong (Acts 15:1;15:3). Church elders, or else mature gifted members of the body had to correct the problems when they occurred or after the fact (Acts15:2, Titus 1:7-11). But they are not to disobey the Lord and do away with the open floor (I Corinthians 14:26, 37-38).

One of the things with prophecy is that God can give a prophecy to someone the night before or some time previously to write down, but it doesn't always come that way. Sometimes prophecies are revealed during a meeting (I Corinthians 14:30.) The Bible commands to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. (I Corinthians 14:29.) So the prophecy needs to first come out of the person's mouth before it's judged.

The Bible also does not present the idea that church meetings are all filtered through the pastor. I Corinthians 14 is the only passage which goes into great detail on how to conduct a church meeting. Pastors aren't even mentioned. Elders aren't specifically mentioned. Prophets are, so is one who speaks in tongues, one who interprets, 'every one of you' and 'ye.'

Well women had to be silent anyway so they didn't have that problem.
In most churches I attended there's an open floor, but if you know as a pastor that one woman always comes up with her made up prophesies it's better for the rest and friendlier to say: Great! Write it down, I'll look at it later. Otherwise you also have to correct that person in front of the congregation or stop her.
He had against them that they let Jezebel speak who said she was a prophetess, so those they should stop.
I think that's the reason that they let people ask it first, because it's weird if this person can just give a prophesy and the other first has to ask.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Well women had to be silent anyway so they didn't have that problem.
In most churches I attended there's an open floor, but if you know as a pastor that one woman always comes up with her made up prophesies it's better for the rest and friendlier to say: Great! Write it down, I'll look at it later. Otherwise you also have to correct that person in front of the congregation or stop her.
He had against them that they let Jezebel speak who said she was a prophetess, so those they should stop.
I think that's the reason that they let people ask it first, because it's weird if this person can just give a prophesy and the other first has to ask.

Women cold prophesy. Peter had 3 daughters of whom all prophesied.

 

[Messy]

Women cold prophesy. Peter had 3 daughters of whom all prophesied.

Yes but I thought they did that in cell groups, not in the big meeting. Not sure though.
Also I heard men speak some very weird stuff too. One came to me after the service to tell me the Lord gave him a prophecy for me that I was gold hair from a fairy tale. They call that the coffee and hallway prophecies.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yes but I thought they did that in cell groups, not in the big meeting. Not sure though.
Also I heard men speak some very weird stuff too. One came to me after the service to tell me the Lord gave him a prophecy for me that I was gold hair from a fairy tale. They call that the coffee and hallway prophecies.

No where in scripture does it talk about "cell group" prophesy and applied to women only. That's a mans made up and false teaching, lording it over women and denying women their place in the body of Messiah. Paul gives instructions to both men and women in the same setting on prophesy.

 

[Frogster]

Let them speak is when they have something from God. A lot don't so they check it first otherwise you have to stop them in the middle. In one church after one woman started to condemn everyone with her made up 'prophecy' I learned it had to be edifying. They just do a first test so the others don't have to hear crap.

Good point!...sadly disturbed people ca be over esteemed as the church be all end all..."prophet"!

 

[Frogster]

No where in scripture does it talk about "cell group" prophesy and applied to women only. That's a mans made up and false teaching, lording it over women and denying women their place in the body of Messiah. Paul gives instructions to both men and women in the same setting on prophesy.

well, cell groups were like home meetings.

 

[Frogster]

No where in scripture does it talk about "cell group" prophesy and applied to women only. That's a mans made up and false teaching, lording it over women and denying women their place in the body of Messiah. Paul gives instructions to both men and women in the same setting on prophesy.

well, cell groups were like home meetings.

 

[LinkH]

Many of the early churches met in homes. In Jerusalem, they met in the temple and in homes. James refers to a 'synagogue', but made reference to a footstool in the meeting, so even that could have been in a home, with James not using the later standard word 'ekklesia.' Generally, though, churches met in homes. 'Church buildings' became common after Constantine became emperor 300 years later and built some basilica structures based on the design of Roman public buildings. The cell group movement started in the 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

I Corinthians 14 is about a meeting where they came together. It could have been in Gaius house or on his property, since Paul wrote Romans, apparently from Corinth, which says, "Gaius, mine host and of the whole church...." There was a church in the house of Aquilla and Priscilla, a church in the house of Nympha, and a church in Philemon's house (if I'm attributing the write person to the house when I read it, but it is a church in a house.)

I don't see how reading a distinction between cell groups and church meetings makes any sense.

Paul's instructions to women come directly after his instruction that ye may all prophesy, so one interpretation is that he is not allowing women to prophesy, speak in tongues, etc. in the meeting. That interpretation would mean women can prophesy outside of church meetings. Another way to read it is that Paul is addressing a problem of women being noisy, for example asking their husbands questions at church or giving the prophets the Socratic style third degree, participating in the judging of prophecies when they should be silent and let the men do such things, or asking their prophet husbands questions.

 

[LinkH]

Well women had to be silent anyway so they didn't have that problem.
In most churches I attended there's an open floor, but if you know as a pastor that one woman always comes up with her made up prophesies it's better for the rest and friendlier to say: Great! Write it down, I'll look at it later. Otherwise you also have to correct that person in front of the congregation or stop her.
He had against them that they let Jezebel speak who said she was a prophetess, so those they should stop.
I think that's the reason that they let people ask it first, because it's weird if this person can just give a prophesy and the other first has to ask.

I suppose that's a rationale that can lead to disobedience to what is commanded in I Corinthians 14. Muzzling the saints hinders them from obeying scripture to be good stewards of their gifts, but it may make things neat to organize. Some people have a fear of facing a situation they don't know how to fix.

I believe Paul and Barnabas argued and debated against error right in the church meeting, challenging it right then and there in the opening verses of Acts 15. But this makes a lot more sense in a Biblical church meeting where regular people in the church can speak, where 'every one of you' can speak or sing, as opposed to a church service where if you hear a pin drop when the pastor takes a breath, it is considered sacrildige.

 

[Messy]

I believe Paul and Barnabas argued and debated against error right in the church meeting, challenging it right then and there in the opening verses of Acts 15. But this makes a lot more sense in a Biblical church meeting where regular people in the church can speak, where 'every one of you' can speak or sing, as opposed to a church service where if you hear a pin drop when the pastor takes a breath, it is considered sacrildige.

I thought they had big meetings on Sabbath where one or 3 could give a prophecy and the small meetings where everyone had something in homes.

 

[LinkH]

I thought they had big meetings on Sabbath where one or 3 could give a prophecy and the small meetings where everyone had something in homes.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Reborn1977]

I am wondering if anyone is here who either believes, or is familiar with teachings on differences between how NT prophets v. OT prophets operate that are popular among third waves churches, or even NAR churches. How do churches who believe in 'covering' think prophesying should work. I know there is not just one answer.

Also, I'd like to discuss with those who believe or are familiar with teachings that prophecies need to first go through a pastor before being shared in church or elsewhere.

The NT/OT prophet thing... I'm trying to figure out a particular perspective on that. The gist I got is that some people believe that saying, "Thus saith the Lord" is wrong or first person prophecies are wrong, and you have to do a kind of wimpy sounding thing, "Maybe, I think, God might be saying that." But I can't find that in the Bible. None of the teaching on the nature of prophecy in the NT seems completely unique to NT prophecy-- e.g. prophesying in part, judging prophecies, etc. Acts shows a prophet giving a predictive prophecy.

I'm wanting to know others perspectives in a bit more detail. We can also discuss them or debate them in a godly edifying manner, etc.

I have written and taught extensively about Prophets and Prophetess especially regarding how they fit into modern society and the modern church. The prophets of today so to speak.


If you are interested you can go to my profile page and find a link to my blog, Gods Truth in Love, and there in the archives you will find a couple of series on prophets and prophetess.


They are as follows:

The Pesty Moralist - The Prophet / 17 Part Series - Started in late June 2014.

Followed by… Man and The Prophet / 8 Part Series - Started in early October 2014.


As far as OT and NT Prophets go and how they differ. There is one major difference you must keep in mind. The key difference between Old Testament and current day New Testament Prophets and Prophetess can be found in their prophecies. The prophecies of the Ancient Prophets, the prophets of the Old Testament time period, structured Biblical text and gave Biblical prophecies. The prophecies of the current day New Testament Prophets do not add to Biblical text or change Biblical prophecies; their prophecies illuminate what is already established in God’s Word.


I have a teaching I teach called “Prophets and Prophetess - Who Are They?” It is designed for teaching in person but if some of you are interested I could adapt it so I could teach it bit by bit via the forum. It covers who and what prophets are, who holds the title of prophets, what their gifts are, how they operate, their interactions with the church and people, there place in modern society, etc.


If you or anyone else reading this board thread are interested in me doing this study with you please send me a message and let me know. I ask that you actually send a message because I do not always read every post on a thread.


I hope you find the information provided helpful and that God opens your mind, spirit, and heart to what a True Modern Day Prophet actually looks like and how they operate.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The main difference is the OT prophets would say something like THUS SAITH THE LORD!! and then speak. The NT prophets, we are given odd instructions in that we are to weigh what they say, to keep what's good and throw away what's bad from what they say. This is written about in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 5

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It is important to note that the age of the proclamation of the law and the prophets is over and the age of the kingdom of God had begun when Jesus said that. In Revelation it is written that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, in the past when I read the bible in 30 days I noticed that the prophets were foretelling disasters that would happen because these things were all written in the books of the law. So I see a shift, from law oriented prophecies about disasters to Jesus testimonies that speak of the good news, of the restoration of all things that Jesus also spoke about.