November 24th.....

Neenie1

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I don't watch either TT or ACA all that much at all. I do prefer Channel 7 over Channel 9 though. Although I do watch Channel 9 news because it has the Canberra Local news on it.

(BTW I am Liberal supporter) and I am not a fence sitter either now, I know exactly who is getting my vote on 24/11.
 
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I'm going to bite.

I watched the debate on Sunday and thought John Howard was the clear winner as his arguments were far more appealing than the usual cheap slogans put forth by Rudd.


It's a debate...slogans are going to be used to appeal to audience and catch attention. The real debate is done on policy - and people should be voting on policy not and 1 hour and a half long "debate" where it's impossible to detail policy.

He explained clearly why he has always governed in the best interest for the Australian people, and why his policies are the right ones for this country. Why IR reforms were needed to get the balance right, why unions should never run the country, why interest rates will always be lower under Liberal, and why his approach to climate change is more effective.


We've had what now, four/five surpluses, yet I don't see housing affordability or things such as hospitals, education, public transport being better - which admittedly is a problem of the states as much as the federal government. Interest rates are going to be lower for the Liberal government because they are unwilling to spend any money on infrastructure, instead delivering surplus after surplus. As I explained above, no proper business model is run on surpluses - you either give out dividends or you invest back into the business. Howard can claim his tax cuts as dividends to the country - but tax cuts mean more "money" (without taking cost of inflation into account) for the Australian public to spend, which means higher inflation cause people are spending more, leads to higher pressures on the interest rates, which leads to - higher interest rates. There are still homeless people on our streets, a lot of Aboriginals are still living in third world conditions. And before we spoke up about it, Howard didn't care at all about climate change. Saying that He can "convince" George Bush to do somethign about climate change is great John - one you are so insignificant neither China nor America is going to listen to you, two George has done his 2 terms and can't be re-elected anyway.

I particularly liked his closing speech in regards to education, why have people become ashamed of the Australian story and also whats the point in giving kids laptop computers when so many can't even read or do basic math?
I would agree, the laptop thing is a bit of a farce. But in Howard's closing speech he didn't actually outline any of his policy either....well let's hear it John...o another thing he has spent 11 years not doing?

O I love it when John says we are ashamed of our history. As long as he teaches the kids about White Australia Policy, about the Stolen Generation along with our "supposed" history, I'm fine with that. Does John really want history or "propoganda"?

On the other hand there was no real substance to any of Kevin Rudd's arguments, which was to be expected seeing as he couldn't even come up with his own tax policy.
Rhetoric, and spin, straight from the Howard war machine. Was Rudd meant to come up with a completely radical tax policy? Then you would have said he's an idiot.

I reckon John Howard has been a great leader of this country for the past 11 years and delivered a strong economy that has increased living standards for the vast majority of Australians. There isn't much to gain in changing leadership but there is plenty to lose by letting unions run the country, undoing reforms that take us backwards rather than forwards.
Actually if Labor gets voted in, it'd be Rudd running the country, much like it is Howard running the country. Rudd's pretty ruthless in his tactics even among the factions in Labor. No one is going to challenge him, because if He wins, He would be the first Labor leader in 11 years, and there's no chance any unionist is going to get the support within Labor to challenge. Make no mistake, the Labor party isn't as much of a one man show than the Liberals, but it's still pretty close.

And I haven't even started...
 
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TheDag

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I watched the debate on Sunday and thought John Howard was the clear winner as his arguments were far more appealing than the usual cheap slogans put forth by Rudd.
I admit I didn't see the debate but all accounts I've come across said that Rudd was the winner and he didn't use many cliches. They said Howard started poorly and got stronger but still Rudd was the winner. Can you go into more detail?

He explained clearly why he has always governed in the best interest for the Australian people, and why his policies are the right ones for this country. Why IR reforms were needed to get the balance right, why unions should never run the country, why interest rates will always be lower under Liberal, and why his approach to climate change is more effective.
Your kidding right??? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You tell me in John Howard's (or your own words) how the IR laws make things more balanced between me and my employer? Bear in mind that I will never be sacked because I am casual (apparently permanent casual) which means if they want to get rid of me they just won't give me any hours. There is no rule saying they have to even if I normally do four days a week work. Sure sounds like we really need more balance for employers there! or take the situation I was in years ago. The company I worked for decided to outsource three departments (despite an independent assessment saying we were the most efficient run place he had ever seen). The ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT (NOT AWARD) said the company was required to notify the union of any redundancies. So what did the company do? Instead of notifying the union in the state where we were (which was also where head office of company was) they notified a union person in western australia at 5:30pm (or 8:30pm EST). This union official happened to be a employee of the company and didn't say anything untill the union asked where the notification was. Yeah really sounds like employers are getting a hard deal to me. Not to mention that even if you can't be forced to sign a workplace agreement any person with half a brain can figure out a way around that or get rid of employees who don't want to sign them. It isn't that hard. I am happy to admit that in the past unions have gone overboard but I personally believe the balance was there before the IR changes. Let's also remember how many people are employed as casuals instead of permanent.

I particularly liked his closing speech in regards to education, why have people become ashamed of the Australian story and also whats the point in giving kids laptop computers when so many can't even read or do basic math?
Why do they need to be able to do basic math. I've worked in retail and while I can do it all in my head I have worked with people who can't yet they still easily manage to do the job. I know people in other jobs who say they don't use the maths they studied in high school. It isn't really required any more like it was in the past. There is even a growing number of professors who say we don't need to worry about spelling like we do but rather the spelling you find in text messages is good enough.

As for people being ashamed of the Australian story perhaps you could provide more detail as to what you mean. I can think of a few different possibilities. If it has anything to do with history just remember history is written by the winner and is not always accurate.
On the other hand there was no real substance to any of Kevin Rudd's arguments, which was to be expected seeing as he couldn't even come up with his own tax policy.
Is that because the Australian public generally speaking are stupid and vote based on whoever gives them a tax cut? Also remember that people are predicting more interest rate rises because the reserve bank is trying to take money out of the economy while the government is putting more into it with tax cuts. Because labour has followed suit then rate rises are sure to happen regardless of who gets in. So this fantastic tax policy the coalition has is not neccesarily good for the country.

I reckon John Howard has been a great leader of this country for the past 11 years and delivered a strong economy that has increased living standards for the vast majority of Australians. There isn't much to gain in changing leadership but there is plenty to lose by letting unions run the country, undoing reforms that take us backwards rather than forwards.
Can you prove that unions would run this country if labour won? I doubt it.
Interesting that the coalition has said they won't remove their ads which falsely claim certain people are former union officials when they have never been union officials. Not to mention anyone who thinks union automatically means anti-business is not using their brain to think.
 
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TheDag

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Liberal supporters are more likely to watch Today Tonight and Channel Seven. ACA & Channel Nine in general if you look at their content, targets people who are likely to be Labor voters. At least that's the impression I get from their news and current affairs coverage, and even from their entertainment shows.
i guess they have dramatically changed their format since I stopped watching.
 
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Anduril

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GodsoldierClintus said:
I'm going to bite.

It's a debate...slogans are going to be used to appeal to audience and catch attention. The real debate is done on policy - and people should be voting on policy not and 1 hour and a half long "debate" where it's impossible to detail policy.
Exactly. Labor are always found lacking in policy, hence the slogans.

We've had what now, four/five surpluses, yet I don't see housing affordability or things such as hospitals, education, public transport being better - which admittedly is a problem of the states as much as the federal government.
They are much more a problem for the states as they are all run by the states.

Interest rates are going to be lower for the Liberal government because they are unwilling to spend any money on infrastructure, instead delivering surplus after surplus. As I explained above, no proper business model is run on surpluses - you either give out dividends or you invest back into the business.
Exactly. Surpluses and lower interest rates rather than deficitis and higher interest rates as under Labor.

Howard can claim his tax cuts as dividends to the country - but tax cuts mean more "money" (without taking cost of inflation into account) for the Australian public to spend, which means higher inflation cause people are spending more, leads to higher pressures on the interest rates, which leads to - higher interest rates.
ohn Howard explained during the debate why he didn't believe his tax cuts would be inflationary.

There are still homeless people on our streets, a lot of Aboriginals are still living in third world conditions.

This Government has done plenty to help aboriginal people but there is only so much you can do if they won't help themselves.


And before we spoke up about it, Howard didn't care at all about climate change. Saying that He can "convince" George Bush to do somethign about climate change is great John - one you are so insignificant neither China nor America is going to listen to you, two George has done his 2 terms and can't be re-elected anyway.
Better than crippling our economy and not achieving anything anyway as Labor would do. I'm glad the Government waited until the science became more clear and there was more public pressure to act on climate change. These decisions have a signicant effect on the economy and require a well considered approach.

I would agree, the laptop thing is a bit of a farce. But in Howard's closing speech he didn't actually outline any of his policy either....well let's hear it John...o another thing he has spent 11 years not doing?
is policy has always been to bring basic standards back into schools that we lost through political correctness and kids not being properly educated.

O I love it when John says we are ashamed of our history. As long as he teaches the kids about White Australia Policy, about the Stolen Generation along with our "supposed" history, I'm fine with that. Does John really want history or "propoganda"?
You might be surprised to learn that there is actually more to Australian history than oppressing aborigines and refugees.

Rhetoric, and spin, straight from the Howard war machine. Was Rudd meant to come up with a completely radical tax policy? Then you would have said he's an idiot.
No, but one thats 90% the same?

Actually if Labor gets voted in, it'd be Rudd running the country, much like it is Howard running the country. Rudd's pretty ruthless in his tactics even among the factions in Labor. No one is going to challenge him, because if He wins, He would be the first Labor leader in 11 years, and there's no chance any unionist is going to get the support within Labor to challenge. Make no mistake, the Labor party isn't as much of a one man show than the Liberals, but it's still pretty close.

And I haven't even started...
We all know Labor are basically run by the unions. Most Labor members are ex union officials including their front bench. Don't be fooled, the fact there won't be one as prime minister is irrelevant as they'll still be there pulling all the strings.
 
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Exactly. Labor are always found lacking in policy, hence the slogans.

I have yet to find on the Liberal website where he states his policies, but amazingly enough there's "Labor Watch" and Two-faced Kevin. There's more on anti-Labor propaganda on the Liberal site then there is actual policy. And when I inquired about it - I got a response saying my question was "too general" it's simple really I asked for a link to their policies and they couldn't give me one. And as I said before, it's a debate done publically as a political stunt - it's going to be a general debate based on themes and ideas and concepts, not detailed policy. Any person that's done debating would know that.

They are much more a problem for the states as they are all run by the states.

This is also a federal problem because federal government collects the taxes and funds the state spending. Howard has been known to go around the states by simply refusing to give funds. There needs to be reform on the 2 levels of government does these things and at least with a federal and state Labor governments you would get a bit of collaboration.

Yes Howard explained how his tax cuts won't cause inflation, but I'm not too sure that matches any economical theory out there.

This Government has done plenty to help aboriginal people but there is only so much you can do if they won't help themselves.

I'd like to see what "plenty" means. The facts are, there are still aboriginal people living in distress and still homeless people on our streets and a greater divide between rich and poor in Australia. Economic growth, does not necessarily mean that overall people are going better.

We all know Labor are basically run by the unions. Most Labor members are ex union officials including their front bench. Don't be fooled, the fact there won't be one as prime minister is irrelevant as they'll still be there pulling all the strings.

Easy to copy from Liberal rhetoric - it's actually been proven that is not the case. Do you actually know how the Labor caucus works?

is policy has always been to bring basic standards back into schools that we lost through political correctness and kids not being properly educated.

I don't see how refusing to work with the states to get a decent education program is helping our kids. Again, he's had 11 years to work with the states - there has been no progress.

O I love it when John says we are ashamed of our history. As long as he teaches the kids about White Australia Policy, about the Stolen Generation along with our "supposed" history, I'm fine with that. Does John really want history or "propoganda"?

You might be surprised to learn that there is actually more to Australian history than oppressing aborigines and refugees.

Well then what is our history? I'd like to hear it. If we need to know where we've come from and where we are going to go what is it?
 
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TheDag

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Exactly. Labor are always found lacking in policy, hence the slogans.
You reckon the coalition doesn't use slogans??? Try being unbiased. Liberals have used slogans. They have used cliches. So stop pretending they haven't. Labour has come up with policies. Also look at coalition policies. They provide free software to protect children on the internet. I guess you missed the news that it only took three hours for kids to crack. What a waste of money on paying for the software and as campaign and mail out.

They are much more a problem for the states as they are all run by the states.
Except the federal government is supposed to provide funding for the states. When federation was set up do you know what was supposed to happen if there was a surplus? It was supposed to be given to the states. That never happened of course. So the federal government cuts health funding to the states and says it is a state issue. Get real. Remember there are a number of federal hospitals which the federal government didn't want to run so they got the states to run them instead on the behalf of the federal govt.

Exactly. Surpluses and lower interest rates rather than deficitis and higher interest rates as under Labor.
federal government has increased fees for university students yet constantly have increasing surpluses. are you really trying to say they needed to increase those fees because otherwise they would have a deficit. Nope sorry I ain't falling for that. They just want to be able to give people tax cuts because so many are silly enough to fall for it. That is what is being discussed. No problem having a small surplus but how about providing services instead of having a massive surplus so you can give a tax cut. I still remember on a current affair show at 9am the day after a federal election where howard and costello had promised tax cuts costello turned around and said we might not be able to afford tax cuts after all. Also not how a number of coalitions promises aren't due to come into effect unless they also win the election after this one.

You also have no proof of this claim it is pure speculation. Sure previous labour people have run up deficits. That however is no guarentee of how Rudd would go in government. If you don't believe that then I guess you forgot about John Howards performance as treasurer.

ohn Howard explained during the debate why he didn't believe his tax cuts would be inflationary.
From figures released recently we know that he as wrong. Figures released recently almost guarentee a interest rate rise during the election campaign. And costello saying he'll stop it shows how desperate he is and that he just wants the reserve bank to tow the governments line which is not a good thing for this country. The reserve bank needs to be independant.

Also amusing is how you are prepared to just accept Howards explanation but so quickly write off Rudds explanations.


This Government has done plenty to help aboriginal people but there is only so much you can do if they won't help themselves.
They think they have done plenty but in reality all they have done is throw money at the problem thinking that will fix things. They haven't taken time to understand the problem and the culture to know how best to approach the problem. What a western way of thinking. The coalitions solution reminds me of Bob Hawke promise that no Australian child will be living in poverty. It was a nice thought but showed he had no understanding of the problem at all.
Also interesting is how you failed to touch on the topic of homeless. I guess you will also convientently ignore the promise the federa;l govt made to help eradicate poverty for which they have not followed up with action. It isn't like they can't afford it.

Better than crippling our economy and not achieving anything anyway as Labor would do. I'm glad the Government waited until the science became more clear and there was more public pressure to act on climate change. These decisions have a signicant effect on the economy and require a well considered approach.
Maybe if he had accepted climate change as fact then the science would be better than what it is now. Climate change has been recognised fact for some time. The science for how to solve the problem now has less time to get right. Less time means mistakes may be made. He wasted years of valuable research time.


is policy has always been to bring basic standards back into schools that we lost through political correctness and kids not being properly educated.
Care to explain how political correctness has had an affect on standards. Proof is what I'm looking for not assumptions and innuendo.
You might be surprised to learn that there is actually more to Australian history than oppressing aborigines and refugees.
All he is asking for is for history to be taught. Not just the history one person wants to be taught. Not just the history that makes us look good. Your idea of education seems to be a biased view.I would personally also like to see it taught about how Australian troops committed atrocities against japanese troops in world war 2. It would seem because we won the war we can just ignore it. Or maybe because it wasn't as big as what the japanese did. I don't know about you but I disagree with the philoshphy that what they did was worse so what we did was ok.


No, but one thats 90% the same?
I wouldn't care if it was 95% the same if it is better policy. I've said previously that one of the politicians I admire most was John Hewson because he didn't try to defend poor behaviour by his colleagues. He also didn't try to argue against policies simply because the opposition came up with them if he thought were good. It is clear that for the most part both major parties aim for the middle ground as that is where the election is won and lost. Sure you can have some policies that are aimed towards minority groups.


We all know Labor are basically run by the unions. Most Labor members are ex union officials including their front bench. Don't be fooled, the fact there won't be one as prime minister is irrelevant as they'll still be there pulling all the strings.
You obviously know nothing about Rudd's history. One of the prominant things he did before becoming a state politician and while in state politics was making sure these groups didn't have control You have also made a misleading statement. By saying including the fron bench you are implying the entire front bench are ex union officials. That is not true. As said in a previous post and convientantly ignored by you is that the coalition has said they wouldn't pull one of their ads even though it was proven to be wrong. False advertising is a crime. Says something about the quality of those leaders. I haven't seen that ad tonight which is the first time I've watched tv since it was proven the ad made false claims. As Julia Gillard said though. If you want to go back in peoples history make sure Costello mentions the socialist group he was in when younger.

lets take a different view of you assumption here. We could say we all know that Liberals are only interested in business and don't care about individuals which is why they want to take industrial relations back to the dark ages. Ahhh how wonderful stereo typing is hey!
 
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norbie

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We've had what now, four/five surpluses, yet I don't see housing affordability or things such as hospitals, education, public transport being better - which admittedly is a problem of the states as much as the federal government.
They are much more a problem for the states as they are all run by the states.

So now tell me why can our little Jonny put 45 Mill in a Tasmanien Hospital, which is also run by the states and the needy Sydney North Shore could easy take a 45 Mill donation?
 
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Norbie - This is a guess, but I'm guessing that Howard did that for political reasons. Andruil is right when he says it's technically a state's matter. It says so in the Constitution. But ever since World War 2 there has been greater and greater power shifted to the federal government. The Howard government now has power to by various High Court rulings to basically not give any funds to the states unless they do what the Howard government says. It's a complicated issue and that's why every year all the states jump over each other and compete with one another to get funds from one another. This situation has improved somewhat, ironically with the GST, because Howard has actually decided he would just put the GST revenue straight back into the states, no questions ask (although Costello did threaten to take that away)

The problem is as much as constitutional problem then actually a government problem. There is a lot of blame shifting by both sides - it's hard to know who exactly is responsible. Federal Government will say States not doing the job, the States will turn back and say the Federal government isn't giving enough funding, or trying to take away their power by manipulating them with "strings attached" cash. It's interesting this has come to past really because of the High Court rulings and the fact that the High Court isn't a very democratic institution - everytime a new federal government comes along they install "friendly" judges in. Problem when you have a government like Howard's that has gone on for 11 years is that you can't get rid of the high court judges until they are 70.

Overall I think it's a bit of a farce when all we went is a better system, but you can't actually vote for anyone that will fix it.
 
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