Notes on Rev 20 & Ez 38 & 39

[Midst]

I do not know if we are right before the Armageddon showdown, or right before the Gog & MaGog showdown. We may not even be close to one of these. As one poster here has pointed out, they may even be one and the same event.

I do, however, tend to believe we are close to one of these events, and the evidence seems to be strongest to suggest that we are close to the Gog and MaGog event.

The evidence to suggest this is Ezekiel 38 & 39 which depicts the nation to be attacked as Israel. Some argue this is not literally physical Israel. That may be so. However, the way that nation is depicted in these verses does tend to indicate strongly that it is physical Israel.


For instance, Ezekiel 39:

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. 22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob[d] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”



It is very difficult to try and say this is anything but literal, physical Israel.

I doubt Israel will be exiled again and yet again see their fortunes restored.

This would also undermine the message that they were ultimately exiled because they did not accept the One God sent.


How we got here, exactly, I am not sure. Which view which fits this is most correct, I do not know.


With several of Daniel's prophecies, we all now know some of those meanings. They are apparent and obvious when contrasted with history. So much so cynics demand to date Daniel in the first century or so BC. In metaphoric terms, these prophecies cover much of the history of Western Civilization, clearly. And today it is simple to note these things.

I do not get the same standard, exactly, with Revelation.


But, as noted, one thing that does appear very clear is Ezekiel 38 & 39 is talking about modern Israel as they have been exiled, and as they have been brought back in the most uncanny of terms.


Now is it possible this is all just metaphoric for the church? Sure. But, this would indicate that modern Israel is regardless an exact metaphor in their behavior and circumstances as the modern church. And - or - other such mind bending parallels.


Whatever the case, dismissing these arguments without taking in these considerations is truly weak, but I do wonder if anyone can dismiss these arguments *while* taking in these considerations?

 

[Interplanner]

Midst,
doesn't it strike you as strange that 38:21-23 would have the intention of showing how God chastised Israel, but not mention the DofJ, the scorching of the land and the death of some 1.2M Jewish people? If you're reading Ezek in the 6th cent. BC and the DofJ is in the 1st AD, why would you look for a demonstration of such in our future. "Literal" or "spiritual" let's try to get at the intention of the passage!

 

[Douggg]

Midst,
doesn't it strike you as strange that 38:21-23 would have the intention of showing how God chastised Israel, but not mention the DofJ, the scorching of the land and the death of some 1.2M Jewish people?

Which means the DofJ was not in the first century, right? Since Israel was not a nation again back then, but is when Gog/Magog takes place.

The DofJ the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years after the Gog feast in Ezekiel 39:4.

 

[Interplanner]

they were a nation since they came back from the exile, Doug. What kind of strained, doctrinaire thinking is that you just threw out? Nobody but theologians think that way, and tax form preparers.

So all that suffering 'didn't count'? Go tell them that. Go tell the people near Jesus in Lk 23 that. What hooey.

so when they came into existence in 1948 so to speak, were they a nation then or not? You're sounding like the transgenders in California. You can just make it up when you feel like it. Woman today, man tomorrow. Why they didn't use their argument about race is beyond me, why not? Why not just feel like you're Asian today? Why not say Israel was a nation before Adam? Who cares if it makes sense?

What about Mt 21 and the nation that the vineyard was given to? So now that's a nation in God's accounting, if you're going to be one of these really flighty theologians, sometimes literal, sometimes not.

It is really, really hard to take such declarations as arrived at seriously. It's like listening to B2 and his Rubic's cube approach; it's all a puzzle and its 2P2P and you've got to make 2P2P work no matter what, because 2P2P is the answer.

 

[Midst]

Thanks for the response....

Okay, DofJ == Dispersion of the Jews, aka The Diaspora... (or The Dispersion)

In context, the dispersion is very explicitly mentioned in *these* verses: it should be noted, in context, all of Ezekiel 38 & 39 talks about this event.

Ezekiel 38

In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.



That is pretty explicit, and while the holocaust is not mentioned, what is explicitly mentioned is "Israel had long been desolate", and "from the nations". And indirectly the Holocaust and other persecutions are mentioned "that has recovered from war", and "now...live in safety" as if before they did not.


Further continuing in Ezekiel 38:

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. 22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

"I will no longer hide my face from them" -- does God do this with spiritual Israel?

Was spiritual Israel dispersed among the nations, in exile, to be brought back?

Do the people of spiritual Israel not know, "I am the Lord, their God"?

Do the people of spiritual Israel need the Spirit of the Lord poured out on them, as it says, "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord."

It is even hard to argue for Spiritual Israel, "I will gather them to their own land".

Further, how is this said of Spiritual Israel? " 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them."

All of these things and more really do seem to point more to physical Israel then spiritual Israel.

It is, in fact, uncanny, how it does so.

I find, it seems as uncanny as the verses of Daniel and fitting those prophecies to the world kingdoms that would follow Nebuchadnezzar. As well as the events Daniel predicted during the times of the Maccabees.


Let it be noted: I am not a Jew. I do not live in Israel. I am Scot Irish, like many Americans. I do not have any bias here.


I treat prophecy as something to solve, to seek out, to try and understand. I try this or that, and keep many theories. I have no idea how it is that we could be at the edge of the end of the thousand years. It would seem some sort of historicist view may be correct then.

I do not know then who the two witnesses were. I do not know who nor what the beast was. None of that. But, this tiny puzzle piece fits.

Now, not to go to far, let me try and consider this from an counter angle:

1. Did this already happen as some verses have (though those verses may also speak of something to come as well)?As Gog and Magog symbolism is but referred to in Revelation 20, and these events did not happen to Israel -- but in recent times as they fit... no, no they did not.

The peoples referred to in the verse are from many nations, from unknown, far north nations, and from sketchy locales not entirely pinned down.

This fits in with Revelation 20. Egypt and Iran do seem to be figured here, though.

2. Is this all really symbolic, about spiritual Israel, that we may think and reason these matters through to see this?

This is tough: the language is very ancient. It describes situations in the very far future. There are no horses, for instance. So you really have to consider metaphor in these things. As with any of these sorts of verses. Language from Heaven to earth, from earth thousands of years ago, to earth now... these things are hard to bring about. In comparison, from Hebrew to English, this is not much a problem.

So, Spiritual Israel would be: in war, exiled, exiled because of unfaithfulness, God turned his face from us, God dispersed us among the nations because of unfaithfulness, and God did not pour his Spirit out on us. Of all these, the last fits the very least, for if we do not have the Spirit, we are not Christians, and if not Christians, we are not Israel.


Further, God called us from the nations. And what singular land are we in? Okay, we could put all that metaphorically, and maybe argue, "We get more Spirit". But, has God really turned his face from us?

But, none of this is the real problem here: the real problem here is all of this fits physical Israel to a "t". So, then, physical Israel just happens to be an exact metaphor for spiritual Israel?

What war did we saints face where we were unfaithful? We were compelled by Spirit. We have had many martyrs, but these by Spirit, and by faith.

If physical Israel is an exact metaphor of spiritual Israel, then when do the two metaphors split? Why?

All of these land into very difficult to sort out problems.

I think the problems could be dismissed without thinking. But, I am highly skeptical they could be dismissed in any other way but by preconceived bias.

However, I am open to whatever you may suggest or argue, as you may have that very necessary insight to show exactly how these two chapters should be properly read.

 

[Interplanner]

Midst, how does anyone know what 'long' means?

 

[Interplanner]

After reading the rest, I notice this: you guys are saying 'if a workup of a theory does not fit with Ezek 38, then we have to start over.'

I don't accept that. I don't think for a minute that 2500 uses of the OT by the NT renders the situation such that we have to go back to Ezek 38 (never taught about by Jesus or apostles) and say we have to set everything in relation to that. And there is the outpouring of the Spirit at the end of 39. We know when that happened. We know nothing like that has happened today.

But if he meant pictures of Christ, and of devastation of wayward Israel, and of a new temple, then everything is fine.

 

[Midst]

After reading the rest, I notice this: you guys are saying 'if a workup of a theory does not fit with Ezek 38, then we have to start over.'

There is no "you guys" here.

If you approach what I am saying in this way, how can you clearly understand what I am saying? That is preconceived bias. You will be filtering over everything something you have heard before.

What *I* am saying is, in context, Ezekiel 38 and 39 well fits the conditions of Israel today. That is **it**. It is very obvious, very plain. I am going by **evidence**, not theory.

I want evidence driven theories.

Not theories, then try and fit the evidence on top of it.

Revelation 20 is obviously a core verse. I go back to Scripture and find this, and you clearly see a direct relation between the two.

It is that simple.

Further, Ezekiel 38 & 39 has *evidence* of future events come true that fits in with today.

My point is: trying to *explain away that evidence* is putting one's self in a very weak position. My impression that is the stance one takes when one is not interested in considering the evidence, but has a favorite pet theory one wants to try and hammer into everything.

The examples I used here were from Daniel. Daniel is a great example of fulfilled prophecy. Might I try and argue those prophecies did not predict the coming world kingdoms uncannily? Of course they did.

How do critics explain away the *evidence* of Daniel's prophecies? They date Daniel into the time of Maccabees is how. That is *explaining away the evidence*.

To do this with Ezekiel 38 and 39 would require dating these chapters to the present day and age. This is impossible.

Let it again be noted: I am going by evidence, not theory. I hold many theories, I listen to all theories. I solicit theories. But, I believe evidence must drive the investigation. Because I am interested in truth, in fact.

I am serious about being right.

Hence, the evidence speaks loudly here to me.

I am not posting to evangelize. I don't care what people believe, they believe all sorts of nonsense without evidence. I want to hammer my own views down, and this helps to solicit other opinions to do so.

Maybe there is something I have missed.

Right now, I am thinking, "no".

Your answer there does not even attempt to explain away the evidence in these chapters. This is a response I expect, because I see no way that evidence could be explained away. It is just too strong.

I don't accept that. I don't think for a minute that 2500 uses of the OT by the NT renders the situation such that we have to go back to Ezek 38 (never taught about by Jesus or apostles) and say we have to set everything in relation to that. And there is the outpouring of the Spirit at the end of 39. We know when that happened. We know nothing like that has happened today.

But if he meant pictures of Christ, and of devastation of wayward Israel, and of a new temple, then everything is fine.

Gog and Magog have not happened "today", nor "in the past". So, this event has not happened.

That is Revelation 20.

If you are trying to say this has already happened, that is another matter. Anything is possible, but that would be extremely difficult to prove.

None of Revelation 20 has happened yet.

So, I am not trying to fit Ezekiel 38 and 39 into some mysterious event in the past. That seems to me to be trying to fit a theory to evidence, instead of evidence to a theory.

I am interested in the later, not the former.

Plenty of people claiming divine inspiration, or that their own understanding is the wisdom of Heaven without that. I do not think understanding Daniel comes from divine inspiration, which often can not be detected, anyway. And that we should not treat any scripture as if we should turn our reasoning faculties and honesty off with.


Anyway, if you have any weighty answers, please let me know. I would love to see a chink in this theory. Right now, it seems like very substantial and uncanny evidence pointing to Israel, physical Israel.


I would especially *love* to hear your intelligent response explaining away the stated evidences supplied. How does these statements, these verses *not* uncannily predict what we have seen come to pass in modern, physical Israel?

 

[Midst]

Midst, how does anyone know what 'long' means?

I have no idea of what you are referring to, but obviously, "long" is a vague term.

This is surely not a matter I focused on in the least, and has nothing to do with *any* of the many points of uncanny evidence these verses provide to us living today.

 

[Interplanner]

The 'long' question comes from using Ezek 38's long time to say automatically that it has to be now.

It sounds like you don't think that if the NT doesn't positively state the use of a passage then we should just leave it alone. The futurist approach seems to be to build everything on those--the ones the apostles said nothing about! I cannot go along on that.

 

[Midst]

Just to be clear here: These two chapters [Ez 38 & 39] of the Bible are amazingly accurate in depicting today's events with Israel. I mean by "today" as in, the reformation of Israel as a country, of course. The Bible, here, predicted the future with uncanny accuracy.

This is evidence for the Bible its' self, and evidence of the existence of God.

There are many other verses which well depicted current events of Israel in no uncertain terms. So, this does have the entire world wondering 'what is going on'.


Revelation 20, like the fullness of Ezekiel 38 & 39 has not yet happened, clearly. What is described is of the nations all going against Israel and being destroyed.

As we are all well aware this very well could happen in these days.

So, ignoring these chapters is a bad mistake to make.


That is my conclusion.


That is, I believe, any honest, open minded person's conclusion.


This understanding is much like the understanding we have today of some of the verses in Daniel, or many of the verses predicting Jesus which have all come true. The later, of course, many would argue are not true. The former, it should be clear: no one can argue this. Not even the most cunning of atheists.

Likewise, they can not argue this in regards to the verses in the Bible which depict Israel, modern Israel and the events which we have seen transpire in these last hundred some odd years.


At best, the only argument left for atheists is: self-fulfilling prophecy. A weak leg to stand on considering the extraordinary odds that have been set against the reformation and sustaining of the nation of Israel.


For Christians, that is hardly a reasonably argument.


It might be said here: I have no idea on how or why we got to such a stage in the prophecy. I do not know what the meaning of the two witnesses are, nor of the Beast, nor of how the Millennium might have been said to already transpire. I know almost nothing "for sure" about the prophecies in Revelation. I have heard the arguments, and I am open to new ones.

Daniel, I feel confident on several of his prophecies. Everyone does. They well and uncannily predict the following world kingdoms. They even depict such things as the Alexander Greek kingdom being broken into four.

That same level of confidence with Revelation? No.

But, what we have with Revelation 20? We have what must be Gog and MaGog going against literal Israel. And the "all Israel will be saved" statement from Romans then becomes very clear. God will return and save Israel. But, does this mean we are surely past the Millennium? No. Which still does mean this could be a thousand years away.

Or, obviously, more.

However, the implication in these verses, as highlighted in previous posts, and is self-evident in the text... does seem to indicate Gog and Magog is a near event, not something far away.

This conclusion is based on current events:

Israel was exiled and brought back from the nations. Israel is not yet saved, but in an unbelieving state. Israel is aware they were exiled, but do not put that to God nor the rejection of Jesus. All of these points are self-evident in these two chapters.

These points are extremely difficult to reconcile with "Israel" being just the saved, as it states they are not saved.


It states they do not have the Spirit is how it states that. And it states they were exiled because of their lack of faith.


Put another way: if the nations were to have some reason to go against Israel, and God would show his force in destroying them... this manner of terrific miracle would be the evidence that brings about the salvation of Israel.


To spell it all out.


And this is exactly what is spelled out in these chapters.

Is there another way to read this? I do not know. How is it that this seems to happen in Revelation against God and His people in Revelation 20, where one might assume they are saved? I do not know. Assumptions, however, are assumptions.


I am not finished considering these points my own self, and likely will just have to research the matter to find some alternative conclusions I have not yet come across.

But I like to first solicit opinions of people who are very passionate about such matters and see what they have to say.

 

[Midst]

The 'long' question comes from using Ezek 38's long time to say automatically that it has to be now.

I never said anything about it "automatically having to be now". I flatly listed the verses that depict what we know about Israel in modern times and pointed out these predictions have come true in recent days.

The rest of the events have clearly not come true. Gog and MaGog have not come against Israel yet. That could be these days, or it could be far in the future.

The implication seems to be from the exactness of the statements made about Israel that it is likely an event to happen sooner, rather then later.

As Israel was exiled, Israel did come back from exile just recently, Israel is in an unbelieving state, Israel is in a precarious situation with much of the world long gunning against her.

We have the UN these days, and the Middle East is continuing in chaos. We have seen global anger against Israel. And many have for a very long time called for UN action against Israel.

It sounds like you don't think that if the NT doesn't positively state the use of a passage then we should just leave it alone. The futurist approach seems to be to build everything on those--the ones the apostles said nothing about! I cannot go along on that.

This is an extremely vague statement, and appears right off to be entirely irrelevant. "If the NT doesn't positively state the use of a passage then we should just leave it alone"? I can only take it you are locked in an argument again with someone else, on something else.

I am not even sure what you mean by that statement, what this logic is you are trying to state.

What I am stating that bears *any* resemblance to that is: we have evidence in Ezekiel 38 & 39 of events which have transpired in recent history and times. This evidence is so remarkable, it is even evidence of God and of the power of God's prophecy in Scripture.

These events do tie in with a key verse in prophecy in the New Testament, specifically, Revelation 20.

So, it seems you are contorting some observation you have made in the past with someone or something else to somehow try and fit into these things.

I think some manner of contortion has to be made to explain away the uncanny accuracy of the predictions of these prophecies.

As you state, if I recall - I could be incorrect - modern, physical Israel is irrelevant today, and so all these predictions did not apply to her... if so, that is a very precarious position to place your self in. And I can definitely understand why you would not want to speak about these points of evidence in Ezekiel 38 & 39. Which you have been avoiding all through this discussion.

Fact is: these verses are even **worse** then the ones fulfilled in Daniel, because even there someone has to contrast the history books against those verses. Here, it is all in plain statements.

Very difficult to refute.

One could say, at best, I think they are self-fulfilling prophecies. But that is just me arguing for them, because I like to consider all angles. For you.

(From what I can gather from your vague rebuttals that are not addressing these verses in question.)

As for whatever you mean by "the futurist" approach, I am also not sure. My dim understanding of your stance is a historicist. If by that you mean you believe EVERYTHING in Revelation has already happened, you know that is a very extreme stance to take.

That would be saying the Age to Come has come, and eternal life is already here.

This is *not* the mainstream historicist stance.

Rather, I almost sad to say, the mainstream historicist stance is **backed up** by Ezekiel 38 & 39 indicating the Gog and Magog attack is against modern day Israel. Quite so.

And what do I mean by the mainstream historicist stance? Primarily, the Catholic view, and the viewpoints derived from it.

So, if anything, I am almost having to wonder why on earth you would even begin to shy away from this consideration?


But again, while I am familiar with the Catholic view, and many other historicist viewpoints, I know little to nothing of your own.

As stated: I am still waiting.

How on earth you explain these verses in Ezekiel 38 & 39 I would surely like to know.


All this could be confusion on my part: you are being abstract and relying on rhetorics and semantics, and I want to hear your arguments on these facts and verses.

Futurist, preterist, historicist -- whatever.

Specifics.

These other terms are vague.

 

[Bible2]

Midst said in post 12:

Gog and MaGog have not come against Israel yet. That could be these days, or it could be far in the future.

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That Is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

Midst said in post 12:

The implication seems to be from the exactness of the statements made about Israel that it is likely an event to happen sooner, rather then later.

As Israel was exiled, Israel did come back from exile just recently, Israel is in an unbelieving state . . .

Are you thinking of Ezekiel 39:22-29? If so, it means that near the end of the safe time of the future millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

 

[Douggg]

they were a nation since they came back from the exile, Doug. What kind of strained, doctrinaire thinking is that you just threw out? Nobody but theologians think that way, and tax form preparers.

No they were not a kingdom, or else the disciples in Acts 1 would not have asked Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel. And the post babylon former one kingdom was fragmented into three regions Judeah, Galilee, Samaria.

so when they came into existence in 1948 so to speak, were they a nation then or not?

Yes, of course, May 15, 1948 was fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8, and the two sticks joined of Ezekiel 37, the geography of the country no longer split in half as two nations.

 

[Midst]

I am not as comfortable as you are, in attempting specifics such as these.

I do think there is some evidence, however, that Armageddon and Gog /MaGog attack are two different events. But "some evidence" and "conclusive evidence" are, for me, two very different things.

I simply do not know. I keep the theories alive, but I settle on nothing.

That said, it is extremely difficult to argue that the thousand years has already happened. This is argued, however, by many Christians, and there are reasons for this. It is and was the Catholic viewpoint, and remains a sort of viewpoint in seeing the effective exercising of "divine rights" by Christian nations even still. (In a vague sense, these nations might be said to be "Christian", but of course, *not really*.)

Likewise, it is even less seemingly plausible that Gog/Magog and Armageddon are the very same events, as LilLamb has put forth. There are some compelling points to that theory, as well, however.

For me, the chapters on Gog/MaGog however are important because they show evidence of foreknowledge in the Bible. There is plausible deniability there only in the concept of a "self-fulfilling prophecy" but such is extremely weak, as previously noted.

This also confirms that Israel, the actual country, remains important.

Beyond that, it is hard to say.

I noticed the bit about walls. Israel does have a wall. But this might be said to be as metaphoric as the horses. You are talking about speech from far away (Heaven) to a very distant culture and language.... these are great gaps which are difficult for language to carry.

(This is not always so obvious to many, and requires great thought, or experience with the problems of language translations between two vastly different cultures such as primitive South American cultures and modern cultures.)


Just to sum up my viewpoint, however, this may be as long as the above:

I profess to "not know" extremely much. People should recognize this sort of stance from homicide cop shows they watch. I do work in a very intellectual security field that ultimately demands such analysis.

I would love to be able to come out and throw out a long list of "this is what will happens" and "this is specifically and definitely what this and that means", but I do not.

I have strong talents from the Lord in these matters, and do even hear from the Lord clearly on many matters. Not much on these things, not on specifics.

I am very good at puzzle solving and solving mysteries, and very good at planning.

And I have no idea on much of these matters.

Consider Daniel, put your self in the position of people at the time, and how they might have compared those visions and divine interpretations to events as they unfolded in history. At what juncture would people have been able to go, "That is it!" They would never have known which empire would rise next, specifically. But after it rose, they could go back and see with absolute sureness.

That is awe staggering code writing.

Further, it is clear: God is very aware of how such disclosures effects events. Aka, the self-fulfilling prophecy, or the "fighting destiny/fate paradox" you sometimes hear about or perhaps have thought about.

Why, for instance, would **anyone** go together against Israel, considering such disclosures?

Yet, look at the world, the world has always been just inches away from joining together in an UN action against Israel.

From a purely conservative betting angle, one should consider the worst case scenarios/theories foremost... but not overweigh them and so blind one's self by emotions such as fear.

Very much of Revelation could be past. Or very much could be yet to come. It could be over seven literal years as many say, or it could be over thousands of years. No one knows but the Father.

As far as I know, anyway. You could know, for all I know, and maybe just can not provide the evidence necessary to persuade me. Who knows.

I do not.

 

[tranquil]

Consider Daniel, put your self in the position of people at the time, and how they might have compared those visions and divine interpretations to events as they unfolded in history. At what juncture would people have been able to go, "That is it!" They would never have known which empire would rise next, specifically. But after it rose, they could go back and see with absolute sureness.

That is awe staggering code writing.

Further, it is clear: God is very aware of how such disclosures effects events. Aka, the self-fulfilling prophecy, or the "fighting destiny/fate paradox" you sometimes hear about or perhaps have thought about.

Why, for instance, would **anyone** go together against Israel, considering such disclosures?

Yet, look at the world, the world has always been just inches away from joining together in an UN action against Israel.

From a purely conservative betting angle, one should consider the worst case scenarios/theories foremost... but not overweigh them and so blind one's self by emotions such as fear.

Very much of Revelation could be past. Or very much could be yet to come. It could be over seven literal years as many say, or it could be over thousands of years. No one knows but the Father.

As far as I know, anyway. You could know, for all I know, and maybe just can not provide the evidence necessary to persuade me. Who knows.

I do not.

Or, the most likely scenario, - the worst case scenario: a Satanic cabal of trillionaires that pretends to be Jewish is actively creating the end-times. - As per their understanding of it, which I am fairly confident is quite excellent. (Pick me 3 of your favorite horror/ fantasy / sci-fi movies and I will show you how well Satan understands things - of course not all movies serve the agenda in the same manner.)

What if the "light" at the end of the tunnel, the "end of the world scenario" is really just Satan/ the antichrist?

Does God really care about Satan's replication of prophecy? Does that make God come down and fulfill His promises? What if this is not really the tribulation, because that would have to be on His terms...

Maybe, in many ways the preterists are correct, that the prophecies all have had their spiritual fulfillment in 33 and 70 AD... and a later physical fulfillment was never in the cards. Only until we die. But if God rules heaven and earth, then it ought to happen at some point that God would put earth life here in order.

When I go on about dates, like June 11, 2016 (49 years after the taking of Jerusalem giving Jews 7 Sabbath years for the land to lie fallow - 1 sabbath year for every 7; and the 69th Shavuot from the creation of Israel), being the end of the Gog war for Israel, it is coming from the POV that Satan is exacting in fulfillment - whereas maybe people who think that if God is fulfilling things, He will be sloppy with the timing of things.

And you are correct to question the assumption that "Israel" is the country Israel. The 2 sticks seems to be many sets: Physical "Israel", the old northern 10 tribes joined to have 1 head with physical Judea to form modern day "Israel". Then there is the Eastern Orthodox church with Catholicism (which seems to be on track for sometime in 2016, but they are coy about it because the occult world knows that a war would be right before or right after their 2 sticks joining. Then there is the 2 sticks of Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Dave Watchman]

I do not know if we are right before the Armageddon showdown, or right before the Gog & MaGog showdown. We may not even be close to one of these. As one poster here has pointed out, they may even be one and the same event.

I do, however, tend to believe we are close to one of these events, and the evidence seems to be strongest to suggest that we are close to the Gog and MaGog event.

The evidence to suggest this is Ezekiel 38 & 39 which depicts the nation to be attacked as Israel. Some argue this is not literally physical Israel. That may be so. However, the way that nation is depicted in these verses does tend to indicate strongly that it is physical Israel.

Midst,

I do not know if I am right but I think that we are at the less than one year point prior to The Appointed Time of The End. This Appointed Time will begin with sudden destruction out of the clear blue sky and then conclude with the Armageddon showdown. Then we will spend 1000 literal years safe in our Father's House, the one with many rooms, before Jesus brings us all back to Earth when the Revelation equivalent of the Gog & MaGog showdown will occur. I say Revelation equivalent because I think that the Ezekiel story got sealed up during the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.

Remember "to seal both vision and prophet". God had three prophets operating at the same time but He seemed to be giving them different game plans. Did you ever wonder why we don't hear things in the Revelation story like "the young child will put its hand into the viper's nest" or "use the weapons for fuel and burn them up--the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel."

Two visions and two end time prophetic schematics were in play at one point, not anymore. The 70 weeks were the fork in the road for two different prophetic paradigms. Yes there are parallels, but the Daniel and Revelation story doesn't seem to mix too well with old Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

(I have just found out that I am a Partial Zionist. I believe that the Jewish people returning to Israel in 1948 was a prophetic signpost but nothing more)

 

[Interplanner]

DaveW,
can you support anything in your first paragraph?

How is there sudden destruction and then enough people left to do an Armadeddon showdown?

Why would we spend 1000 years somewhere else with our Father (while Christ is reigning on earth) and then come back here to be with him. 1000 years without Christ? I'm getting a little anxious about that already. Because he is the Gospel.

Dan 9 is about the 490 years from 446 to the mid 1st century, although the last verse is a spot on description of the DofJ. What are you talking about?

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 18:

How is there sudden destruction and then enough people left to do an Armadeddon showdown?

Are you thinking of:

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape . . . ?

If so, note that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 doesn't require that the eternal judgment of all of the unsaved of all times (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's (temporal) judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming (yet still temporal) judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Between the temporal, 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, and the eternal judgment and wrath of Revelation 20:11-15, will occur the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:4-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

--

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Interplanner said in post 18:

Why would we spend 1000 years somewhere else with our Father (while Christ is reigning on earth) and then come back here to be with him.

We won't, for indeed Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There is no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Interplanner said in post 18:

Dan 9 is about the 490 years from 446 to the mid 1st century, although the last verse is a spot on description of the DofJ. What are you talking about?

Note that a passage of scripture can include 2 different meanings. For example, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Exodus 4:22) and its Exodus from Egypt. Also, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to an event in Jesus' life (Matthew 2:14-15,19-21).

Similarly, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

 

[Midst]

Or, the most likely scenario, - the worst case scenario: a Satanic cabal of trillionaires that pretends to be Jewish is actively creating the end-times. - As per their understanding of it, which I am fairly confident is quite excellent. (Pick me 3 of your favorite horror/ fantasy / sci-fi movies and I will show you how well Satan understands things - of course not all movies serve the agenda in the same manner.)

What if the "light" at the end of the tunnel, the "end of the world scenario" is really just Satan/ the antichrist?

Does God really care about Satan's replication of prophecy? Does that make God come down and fulfill His promises? What if this is not really the tribulation, because that would have to be on His terms...

Maybe, in many ways the preterists are correct, that the prophecies all have had their spiritual fulfillment in 33 and 70 AD... and a later physical fulfillment was never in the cards. Only until we die. But if God rules heaven and earth, then it ought to happen at some point that God would put earth life here in order.

When I go on about dates, like June 11, 2016 (49 years after the taking of Jerusalem giving Jews 7 Sabbath years for the land to lie fallow - 1 sabbath year for every 7; and the 69th Shavuot from the creation of Israel), being the end of the Gog war for Israel, it is coming from the POV that Satan is exacting in fulfillment - whereas maybe people who think that if God is fulfilling things, He will be sloppy with the timing of things.

And you are correct to question the assumption that "Israel" is the country Israel. The 2 sticks seems to be many sets: Physical "Israel", the old northern 10 tribes joined to have 1 head with physical Judea to form modern day "Israel". Then there is the Eastern Orthodox church with Catholicism (which seems to be on track for sometime in 2016, but they are coy about it because the occult world knows that a war would be right before or right after their 2 sticks joining. Then there is the 2 sticks of Judaism and Christianity.

I do believe in people changing. I view this as what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration. There, three of the apostles saw, what will be. They saw, as Jesus said, the 'Coming of the Kingdom of God'.

If you want a description of what they looked like beyond the dim statements in Daniel or elsewhere, you can see that in Revelation. The Angel looked so much like Jesus transfigured the Apostle John mistook him for exactly that.

One might say, 'well that is Jesus, but what does that tell us about how Moses and Elijah looked'. Consider that, though 'out of their minds', their glory must have been at least near equal to the glory of Jesus. Because they offered to build shelters for all three of them. As if all three were honored.

And the Spirit we have at work in us is greater then Moses or Elijah, for it is the Spirit of Jesus.

God felt it important enough to correct those apostles in their confusion by pointing out that it is Jesus they should listen to.


This change is exactly the change Paul was speaking of when he said, 'we will all be changed', and 'in the twinkle of the eye', 'when we see Jesus as he is, we shall become like him, not now being there yet'.

Further, when Jesus was using the term "son of man" to describe himself, one might note that term is directly tied to his transfigured self.

Which, if one considers, indicates Jesus is depicting himself as being on earth in his transfigured self dealing with people. When taking those verses into context.

So, no wonder people, even his enemies, at that juncture take him so seriously, as he described in his stated view of the end.


While these things stand firm in my own beliefs, there are many possibilities here remaining.

Most of them I tend to shrug off, as most mean some manner of secret or hidden second coming.

It does appear as if this is not what is said which will happen. At all.


Revelation, I do consider a valid book. I am sure Jesus & the Angel of the Lord would agree with me on that.