Not the problem of evil

[brotherChristian]

I meant to say that it reveals Christian values (I used the word "betray" metaphorically, not literally). Respect for individual rights, for instance, something you claim as something a secularist alone values, is also valued by most Christians, because it is a Christian value, not in spite of it. But the Christian worldview is broader in that it not only includes individual rights but also individual responsibilities.

I do not claim secularists alone value individual rights. In fact I'm sure there are plenty of secularists who do not really value them.

The Christian worldview you mention which values individual dignity does seem to really exist in many Christians just as you mention it, but to me it seems to exist in spite of theological belief.

As for your other rants... who do you think really crusaded to end slavery, child labor, give women greater franchise, fight for the rights of minorities, or protect the environment? People motivated by religious conviction.

I'm the first to admit I can rant; but I don't recall mentioning any of this.

In answer to your query - or rather in agreement with the answer you gave for your own question - absolutely many, many, MANY people of religious belief did a great deal of work for these things; wholly religious organizations, in fact. Again, it seems like this is in spite of theology.

If you believe non-theists, agnostics or people of non-Christian religions were not big parts (in many cases a larger part) of those movements then we probably have no common ground to talk on. The only thing worse would be if you claimed that many people perpetrating slavery, child labor, environmental crimes were not likewise good Christians who in many cases also claimed divine providence was on their side.

What are you talking about? Breaking the 600+ Old Testament commandments had different punishments, sanctions, and ritual ablutions and sacrifices applied to them depending on the infraction of Torah, determined by a long Jewish legal tradition of interpretation. This is the basis for such works as the various Talmudic writings. Death was only a punishment in certain cases, not all.

Working on the Sabbath = death. Blasphemy = death. Not honoring thy mother and father = death. Are you really going to deny that?

If you are a Christian who believes that the old covenant was fulfilled by Jesus and none of those old laws apply anymore because Jesus took the punishment that would have been due and all you have to do is believe and accept; AND you also don't try to hold people to the OT standards of marriage, homosexuality, tithing, slavery, kosher living, etc.... then I am not talking about you.

From 2004 to 2011 I immersed myself in Christian culture as a believer, much of it right here in CF. Of course I met hundreds of other Christians who were wonderful, caring people; otherwise I wouldn't have lasted so long. I also met even MORE people who want the world to live by some standards of the OT, but not others, and at the same time say they were saved in Jesus name for any of their own sins while [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and heathens would burn in hell.

How's that for a rant?

 

[brotherChristian]

Western societies are still shaped by Christian values, but its not always clear to atheists how this is so because they have become subconscious, taken for granted, for many Europeans and Americans.

When I think of Christian values, I think of values such as, respect for human life, respect for the dignity of the individual, compassion towards the less fortunate, justice in human affairs, honesty and integrity, the dignity of work and vocation, self-restraint, personal responsibility, and so on. I am not sure what you think Christian values are, but chances are they are not the ones that would come to my mind as obvious.

Holy smokes. Please ignore my last post above. We have no platform for understanding one another if you think these are purely Christian values. Some of them aren't even Christian at all. Just because some Christians may share them doesn't make them a part of Christian doctrine or morality.

Bless you and good day.

 

[FireDragon76]

Holy smokes. Please ignore my last post above. We have no platform for understanding one another if you think these are purely Christian values. Some of them aren't even Christian at all. Just because some Christians may share them doesn't make them a part of Christian doctrine or morality..

Did I say they are purely Christian values? No. But they are indeed ones that the majority of Christians have always valued.

Something like "self-control" for instance was not a pagan value, not unless you were a Stoic or philosopher. Yet that was something Christians valued that set them apart here in ancient western culture. Ditto for respect for human life. In Rome it was perfectly legal to abandon children to freeze to death or be eaten by animals. Our respect for children directly comes from the dignity Jesus gave them in his own life, by refusing to turn them away.

The truth is that you just sound very jaded. Something has happened to you to make you sensitive to what is obvious, and unable to bear it. This seems to be happened a lot to otherwise Christian people that visit this forum. Perhaps the staff need to re-evaluate their policies here. There is a lot of negative energy on these forums, I believe that is part of the problem- too much craziness as if somebody claims they believe in the Bible and all the right doctrines (usually narrowly defined) and can quote a Bible verse. We listen to rants of half-witt armchair pastors all the time. But, this is as much a reflection on internet culture as it is Christianity. You can find intelligent Christians that take their beliefs and intellectual integrity seriously, you just will not necessarily find it on the internet on a particular forum.

 

[Euler]

Did I say they are purely Christian values?

Yes, you did.

And then you do it again here -

Something like "self-control" for instance was not a pagan value, not unless you were a Stoic or philosopher. Yet that was something Christians valued that set them apart here in ancient western culture. Ditto for respect for human life. In Rome it was perfectly legal to abandon children to freeze to death or be eaten by animals. Our respect for children directly comes from the dignity Jesus gave them in his own life, by refusing to turn them away.

Make up your mind as to what it is you are claiming.

I like yet another of Christopher Hitchens' challenges. "Name me one ethical statement or moral act that a theist would claim as his own that could not equally made by an atheist."

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I like yet another of Christopher Hitchens' challenges. "Name me one ethical statement or moral act that a theist would claim as his own that could not equally made by an atheist."

An atheist can always borrow moral principles from Christianity, and Western atheists invariably do.

 

[Paradoxum]

Fair enough, Para. So...basically you're just disappointed in the results of theology (or the apparent lack thereof), as you understand them to be?

I wouldn't say that's my point so much. My first post was considering the similarities between the 'problem of evil', and the 'problem of human gooodness'.

There are issues for the perfect God concept when suffering exists, and when humans seem to be willing to do more about it than God.

I suppose my point is that this is an issue to be considered, as well as the problem of the evil (though they can end up being the same thing).

How much of your present position on 'god' comes as a result of your own ruminations, alone in a dark corner, and how much was brought about by critical family members and/or skeptical friends?

Just wondering. (As one philosopher to another.)

How do you know about my dark corner?

I think my god position comes mostly from me reading (mostly Christian books), watching videos, and alot of thinking. I was strongly Christian, and very confident in my faith, and I tried to fight to keep my faith for a long time. Family and friends weren't much, or any influence.

Just curious, why is that? My lack of education or my combat experience or...?

Just because I can see why anyone would think that. Morality can look alot like just feelings and opinion, nothing more. And maybe that is right, it's something I think about. But for now I believe in morality.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Paradoxum

I wouldn't say that's my point so much. My first post was considering the similarities between the 'problem of evil', and the 'problem of human gooodness'.

There are issues for the perfect God concept when suffering exists, and when humans seem to be willing to do more about it than God.

I suppose my point is that this is an issue to be considered, as well as the problem of the evil (though they can end up being the same thing).

Well sure, that's a normal enough thing. I think we all wrestle with these 'issues of evil' in relation to the concept of God, and we all get 'stung' by them at some time or another.

How do you know about my dark corner?

I wasn't peeking, I promise. See, I have blinders on... >

I think my god position comes mostly from me reading (mostly Christian books), watching videos, and alot of thinking. I was strongly Christian, and very confident in my faith, and I tried to fight to keep my faith for a long time. Family and friends weren't much, or any influence.

Yes, I know. You and I talked briefly a few years ago about some of the transitioning processes you had been undertaking at that time, due to your philosophical deliberations. Since we've already had that discussion, I'm not going to inquire further into your private spiritual business, although I must admit that whenever I talk to a person who was a former brother or sister in Christ, it still pains me a little bit to think of the spiritual disjunction that is now present. (It feels like a family member has gotten kidnapped.)

Please know that while I might 'criticize' what I perceive to be the cogency of your moral arguments/ideas here on CF, I don't mean it as a personal put down. I know you're a smart gal, Para, and I have known that for the past few years.

Peace

 

[FireDragon76]

An atheist can always borrow moral principles from Christianity, and Western atheists invariably do.

Yup... I recently watched some episodes of Morgan Spurlock's InsideMan on Netflix (I do that a lot). Morgan obviously has a big heart... but his apparent apostasy is not one of my favorite parts. In one episode he joins a Nashville atheist "church" set up by some British guy that thinks its a great idea for people to get together on sunday and rally around vague humanism. Its so obvious Spurlock's Methodist upbringing that he writes off as all being about judgementalism and sin imparted a lot of positive virtues to his life, virtues that individuals often raised without that sort of contact with a church community lack altogether.

And the atheist church bit was interesting. In some ways, I found little to criticize... but my thinking was that basically mainline Protestant Christians mostly have all the good stuff like that already(inclusiveness, non-judgementalism), and they tend to actually believe in something besides just platitudes, not to mention the powerful symbolism inherent in the sacraments, and the traditions of the historic Church that most mainline Protestants cling to. Maybe the Sunday Assembley thing will become a sexed up, brain-dead version of Unitarian-Universalism.

I think the Church is losing this battle though, not because Christians are actually measuring up to that stereotype, but because certain groups in our society dominate the conversation and wield their influence to an inordinate degree. Groups that both oppose Christianity for their own selfish ends, and sectarian churches, often highly political in their outlook, that do not truly share as deep a commitment to those Christian values as they think they do, but who do benefit from the political status quo, and often use the rubric of Christianity to hide those motives.

 

[Euler]

An atheist can always borrow moral principles from Christianity, and Western atheists invariably do.

Ah, this sounds like the person earlier who claimed the distinction of 'Christian values'.

Please give examples of the values which are exclusively Christian and which have been "borrowed" by us infidels. Please be specific - blanket accusations are so easy to make.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah, this sounds like the person earlier who claimed the distinction of 'Christian values'.

Please give examples of the values which are exclusively Christian and which have been "borrowed" by us infidels. Please be specific - blanket accusations are so easy to make.

Vocation. You see that word a lot in secular culture, but it has thoroughly religious origins, and still carries a lot of the religious meaning in everyday usage.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Ah, this sounds like the person earlier who claimed the distinction of 'Christian values'.

Please give examples of the values which are exclusively Christian and which have been "borrowed" by us infidels. Please be specific - blanket accusations are so easy to make.

It isn't my claim that these values are necessarily exclusively Christian; merely that insofar as they exist in the Western world, they are remnants of Christian morality. If you want to argue that secularists have retained them due to the influence of, say, Confucianism, I would say that you need to provide evidence for that. They certainly aren't universal.

A specific example? Prohibition of infanticide, at least after birth. Under ancient Roman law, the principle of pater familias gave a father, at least in theory, the power of life and death over his children. Such was actually quite common in pagan societies.

Incidentally, this puts Deuteronomy 21:18-21 in a bit of perspective. Among Israel's neighbors, the incorrigible child wouldn't even have to be taken to the town elders. Ironically skeptics who condemn that passage are actually condemning it for not being Christian enough!

 

[Euler]

Vocation. You see that word a lot in secular culture, but it has thoroughly religious origins, and still carries a lot of the religious meaning in everyday usage.

Vocation? You consider the semantic roots of a word to be a Christian value??

Is that honestly the best you can do?

 

[keith99]

An atheist can always borrow moral principles from Christianity, and Western atheists invariably do.

When the values are good, why not?

And judging from your other posts on this thread I'd hazard you expect Christian principles to be applied and used in a mature manner, not some twisted cross of uber literalism and comic book parsing.

 

[Euler]

It isn't my claim that these values are necessarily exclusively Christian;

Yes, you do. You say that you're not claiming that - but then you go right back to it -

merely that insofar as they exist in the Western world, they are remnants of Christian morality.

See?

If you want to argue that secularists have retained them due to the influence of, say, Confucianism, I would say that you need to provide evidence for that.

Nice straw. Who said anything about Confucious?

A specific example? Prohibition of infanticide, at least after birth. Under ancient Roman law, the principle of pater familias gave a father, at least in theory, the power of life and death over his children. Such was actually quite common in pagan societies.

Oh dear. Tell me, under which emperor was that prohibition enacted? Oh yes, it was Hadrian wasn't it?! The pagan emperor who built temples to several of the Roman gods!

Oh, and he was considered a humanist!

Like to try again?

Incidentally, this puts Deuteronomy 21:18-21 in a bit of perspective. Among Israel's neighbors, the incorrigible child wouldn't even have to be taken to the town elders. Ironically skeptics who condemn that passage are actually condemning it for not being Christian enough!

You want to cite the killing of unruly children as some form of 'Christian value'!?

 

[keith99]

It isn't my claim that these values are necessarily exclusively Christian; merely that insofar as they exist in the Western world, they are remnants of Christian morality. If you want to argue that secularists have retained them due to the influence of, say, Confucianism, I would say that you need to provide evidence for that. They certainly aren't universal.

A specific example? Prohibition of infanticide, at least after birth. Under ancient Roman law, the principle of pater familias gave a father, at least in theory, the power of life and death over his children. Such was actually quite common in pagan societies.

Incidentally, this puts Deuteronomy 21:18-21 in a bit of perspective. Among Israel's neighbors, the incorrigible child wouldn't even have to be taken to the town elders. Ironically skeptics who condemn that passage are actually condemning it for not being Christian enough!

Interesting view of Deut 21:18-21. Not unlike how an eye for an eye as at least as much a limitation on retribution as an endorsement.

I'd argue that a lot of Christianity is pretty universal (the real basics often are). Excluding sexual rules that is. However there is one thigns started in Judaism that seems to come to full bloom in Christianity, or perhaps more accurately I should say in the words of Jesus. That is applying those basics to all of humanity, not just ones own tribe. That and applying to all social classes too. Even the women.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

When the values are good, why not?

Sure, but it's terrible manners not to give Christianity credit just because you don't agree with its teachings on other matters. In the academic word, we call that plagarism.

 

[Paradoxum]

Paradoxum
Well sure, that's a normal enough thing. I think we all wrestle with these 'issues of evil' in relation to the concept of God, and we all get 'stung' by them at some time or another.

I wasn't peeking, I promise. See, I have blinders on... >

I'm not sure I believe you.

Yes, I know. You and I talked briefly a few years ago about some of the transitioning processes you had been undertaking at that time, due to your philosophical deliberations. Since we've already had that discussion, I'm not going to inquire further into your private spiritual business, although I must admit that whenever I talk to a person who was a former brother or sister in Christ, it still pains me a little bit to think of the spiritual disjunction that is now present. (It feels like a family member has gotten kidnapped.)

I answered because you asked.

Spiritual 'disjunction'? I'm sorry that you feel bad about my lack of faith, but I suppose that's a nice thing too.

Please know that while I might 'criticize' what I perceive to be the cogency of your moral arguments/ideas here on CF, I don't mean it as a personal put down. I know you're a smart gal, Para, and I have known that for the past few years.

Peace

Thanks.

 

[FireDragon76]

Vocation? You consider the semantic roots of a word to be a Christian value??

Is that honestly the best you can do?

No... you are dodging what I am saying. Our attitudes to work in western culture are deeply influenced by Christianity, even specific types of Christianity. The "Protestant worth ethic" for instance in England and Scotland, or the very Lutheran attitudes one finds to labor and vocations in Scandinavian and German-speaking countries, for instance, they are distinct in their own right in emphasis. Even Sociologists in the past have noted this.

There's a stereotype, for instance, that Germans and Scandinavians are diligent... and its a product of their Lutheran past which emphasizes doing work for the glory of God, even bad, hard work. On the other hand, the more Calvinist influence in Scotland and England lead to emphasizing good work as a sign of God's particular favor. Some sociologists have speculated this is why expansive social welfare is more popular in Scandinavian and German countries than in England and the US, because Lutheranism had less influence on our nations.

There have been other studies that show that unemployed workers that come from historically Calvinist-influenced nations, such as England, Scotland, or Holland, react to unemployment with more depression than those living in other European nations. I don't believe that's a coincidence. People are still deeply influenced by religion, even when they are atheist and consciously reject belief.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

...as opposed to the ancient Greeks and Romans, who generally viewed physical labor degrading and fit only for slaves.

 

[Euler]

No... you are dodging what I am saying. Our attitudes to work in western culture are deeply influenced by Christianity, even specific types of Christianity. The "Protestant worth ethic" for instance in England and Scotland, or the very Lutheran attitudes one finds to labor and vocations in Scandinavian and German-speaking countries, for instance, they are distinct in their own right in emphasis. Even Sociologists in the past have noted this.

There's a stereotype, for instance, that Germans and Scandinavians are diligent... and its a product of their Lutheran past which emphasizes doing work for the glory of God, even bad, hard work. On the other hand, the more Calvinist influence in Scotland and England lead to emphasizing good work as a sign of God's particular favor. Some sociologists have speculated this is why expansive social welfare is more popular in Scandinavian and German countries than in England and the US, because Lutheranism had less influence on our nations.

There have been other studies that show that unemployed workers that come from historically Calvinist-influenced nations, such as England, Scotland, or Holland, react to unemployment with more depression than those living in other European nations. I don't believe that's a coincidence. People are still deeply influenced by religion, even when they are atheist and consciously reject belief.

Ummmm. Our SECULAR notions of work are influenced by the philosophy that work is part of the worship of a god??

Really??

Here's Calvin -

"The magistrate will discharge his functions more willingly; the head of the household will confine himself to his duty; each man will bear and swallow the discomforts, vexations, weariness, and anxieties in his way of life, when he has been persuaded that the burden was laid upon him by God "

Somehow, secular values recognize that our work lives are placed there by a deity!

Uh, yeah.