Not that "before Evolution: you must become a fish", but Jesus never said "before man, be ape"

What is the maximum number of changes a species can make from its original form?

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well, they did.

Yeah, you like to claim that they did using post-hoc logic, but that doesn't mean that they did. That's why you never show a passage where they actually literally reference evolution. All you show is one talking about 'endless genealogies' and the other talking about apes (I can't say for certain which one said which though I think it was Solomon talking about apes).
 
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AV1611VET

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Yeah, you like to claim that they did using post-hoc logic, but that doesn't mean that they did. That's why you never show a passage where they actually literally reference evolution. All you show is one talking about 'endless genealogies' and the other talking about apes (I can't say for certain which one said which though I think it was Solomon talking about apes).
They were supposed to call it "evolution," were they?

As if that word was around in their time?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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They were supposed to call it "evolution," were they?

As if that word was around in their time?

Even the idea of the theory of evolution wasn't around at that time, so no, they wouldn't have called it that nor even referenced or even made an allegory for it.
No one at the time of the Bible knew about the theory of evolution or even evolution as knew know it.

You claiming that Solomon and Paul were saying stuff against it is post-hoc logic at its finest. ... so kudos on that, I guess. :shrug:
 
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AV1611VET

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Even the idea of the theory of evolution wasn't around at that time, so no, they wouldn't have called it that nor even referenced or even made an allegory for it.
You give too much credit to Darwin.

Folks in the Old Testament and early New Testament weren't as dimly-lit as some think they were.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You give too much credit to Darwin.

Folks in the Old Testament and early New Testament weren't as dimly-lit as some think they were.

I'm not giving any credit to Darwin in what I said. It's a fact: no-one in the Bronze Age or early Iron Age knew about the theory of evolution.
 
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Frank Robert

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I give up.

What?
"I will make you fishers of men" was what Gottservant said in the post I commented on, to which you commented on.
It appears we agree it has nothing to do with either evolution or creationism.
 
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AV1611VET

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But they still had to work within the limited knowledge they had at the time.
I believe the correct term is: prescience evolution.

Evolution in its most primitive form.

Satan sowed the seeds that grew into the Theory of Evolution.

Solomon and Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote about nipping this plant in the bud.

It bloomed with Darwin.

In short:

The seed was planted by Satan, grew for centuries, bloomed with Darwin, will reach full maturity under the Antichrist, and will be plucked up by the roots by Jesus Christ.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I believe the correct term is: prescience evolution.

Evolution in its most primitive form.

Satan sowed the seeds that grew into the Theory of Evolution.

Solomon and Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote about nipping this plant in the bud.

It bloomed with Darwin.

In short:

The seed was planted by Satan, grew for centuries, bloomed with Darwin, will reach full maturity under the Antichrist, and will be plucked up by the roots by Jesus Christ.

Post-hoc logic, driven by a religious complex, at its best.
 
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AV1611VET

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"I will make you fishers of men" was what Gottservant said in the post I commented on, to which you commented on.
It appears we agree it has nothing to do with either evolution or creationism.
You said Jesus had nothing to say about evolution, and I agreed with you.

What's up here?

For the record, "I will make you fishers of men," has nothing to do with creationism or evolution.

Jesus is telling them that He will make them effective soul winners.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Hi there,

So there are two directions this thread is going to take: one, is that you can believe what you want; two, you can distinguish what you believe from the world. The first point, pertains to the idea that I am not asking you to be something you are not: you are a man and I understand what it is to be a man - I am not asking you to become a fish. Neither does Evolution ask you to be a fish. There is speculation that we came from the water, but fundamentally you don't have to go back to being a fish, to be a man.

The second of my two points: is what Jesus said. Fundamentally, Jesus never said "before you become man, become an ape". What Jesus said is "I will make you fishers of men", that is, you will save men from trying to be fishes, when they are not. Is it an equivocation to say that Jesus could make us tree loggers of apes? The point is that it never needs to get that far: Jesus saving us from being tempted to be like fish, saves us from being tempted to be like apes. Is being a fish somehow better than being an ape? That's not the point! The point is that it never needs to get that far. The same logic, that compares a man with a fish, is the same logic that compares a man with an ape - for those that can see the difference: they can be saved.

What you have overlooked is that a progression of attribution, does not save from God. Our sins are fish sins, our sins are monkey sins, you need to repent of either or anything like them. This is the calling of the Holy Spirit to men, to put behind them futile thinking and serve the Living God. God calls us to this. He did not create fish, thinking men would be tempted to be fish; create apes, thinking men would be tempted to be apes. Surely you see that there is no mystery in this, that no matter how many times you hide behind other forms of life, as much as you sin, you still need to repent. And what are you going to find? That all your sins are Man's sins.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you but that which is common to Man

You have much that is right, there is much to be said, for waiting for the truth to emerge (whether in a machine or biologically, or wherever else Evolution may be held out for) but the idea that you burn the bridge back to the Man you used to be is not just a sin, but a great sin. You should be lamenting that you have been snared by the Devil, on what your true identity is as a Child of God. What are all your transitions going to be, if you have no faith for God, in them? I don't want to confuse you: I am not saying "go back to the fishiness of your Evolution" or "stay with the apeness of you Evolution" but look rationally at the evidence: when does the caterpillar become the butterfly without the cocoon? When does the chameleon changes its colour without the background being changed? This is a pattern throughout all Creation! If Jesus had required Evolution at the hands of all Creation, we would all have been given cocoons, we would have been able to change our colour at will.

No, Creation is a response to the Love of God, He cannot be despised without retribution. If you continue in your sin, you will suffer for it. Perhaps if you endure a curse for long enough, you will change your mind - but I don't want that for you, No! I do not promise to pray for you: that is something you must do and at great length. I am simply here to remind you, that the ape is not afraid of the fish, there is no reason for you to be afraid of the ape. One day, you may look back and laugh and be free to learn from all Creation, the Holy Spirit will be there in that Day, to help you - just don't reject what you have at His Hand, you may regret it eternally!

I totally reject using religion to make sciencey type claims. It's bad form and in bad taste, IMO.
 
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dlamberth

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I totally reject using religion to make sciencey type claims. It's bad form and in bad taste, IMO.
Thanks...I totally agree.
It's one thing for religion to bring a person to God. It's a completely different thing, I think wrongly, to use religion as science.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I ask one thing about Darwin and you say "what's so hard"? I never said it was hard to question. I said I want to know.

Perhaps that was too colloquial for you.

You questioned Darwin's motivation. While I don't know for certain what was his motivation because I have never read a biography of Darwin, it is common for those of us to pursue scientific inquiry as a career or life's work to do so because we wish to understand how thing work and how they got that way. Since Darwin studied the relationships between species and determined a mechanism for how they could come about, it reasonable to suspect that Darwin was motivated in his quest to discover how the various species of nature came about. And he did. Why this motivation seems so odd to you, I cannot divine.
 
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Larniavc

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You give too much credit to Darwin.

Folks in the Old Testament and early New Testament weren't as dimly-lit as some think they were.
True. If anyone of them received a modern education that would likely be just as bright as any one of us. But they were woefully uneducated in that time frame- they did not even know about combustion engines, photons or viruses.
 
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AV1611VET

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True. If anyone of them received a modern education that would likely be just as bright as any one of us. But they were woefully uneducated in that time frame- they did not even know about combustion engines, photons or viruses.
I agree.

I like to call those things you mentioned (combustion engines, photons, viruses) "Easter eggs".

Things God "hid" (or embedded) into His creation, pending discovery when the right time came.
 
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dlamberth

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I agree.

I like to call those things you mentioned (combustion engines, photons, viruses) "Easter eggs".

Things God "hid" (or embedded) into His creation, pending discovery when the right time came.
Like evolution?
 
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I'm sure your logic makes Nathan proud. :)
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

One of my favorite examples is oil.

God created the earth with underground oil reservoirs.

When the right time came, God empowered the right scientists to find them.
 
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sjastro

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God created the earth with underground oil reservoirs.
When the right time came, God empowered the right scientists to find them.

And what about those left scientists (or is that wrong scientists) who produced Thalidomide; did God empower them as well?
 
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