Not so fast..........

[ananda]

So... what's "natural" and harmonious about the smart phone/PC and Internet that you're using right now?

Sorry, I had to ask.

They're not natural, and not fully harmonious. I didn't say that I didn't use modern day conveniences. However, I do minimize any such purchases to to maximum extent possible. I live pretty sparsely - I try to live as natural and harmonious as possible, in this unnatural and inharmonious world.

My purpose is not to say that I live a fully natural life, but to emphasize why I believe society needs to be rolled back (and I would be at the forefront, if that happened someday). Until then, I will resist the pull of the majority to the best of my ability.

 

[Vylo]

Corporations are not natural, however. They would not exist if there were no legal protections granted to these artificial entities by the State.

I'm all for the idea of small village life.

Back when we had small village life, you were lucky to make it past 30 before disease killed you, or someone clubbed you to death to take your things. People have a very rose colored views of the past. Human life was incredibly brutal at the beginnings of civilization. There were no police, no law and order. It was a Darwinian cage match. That is a major reason our population grew so slowly prior to, and in early settlement times. For all its flaws, governments and society led to much longer lifetimes and an explosion in population.

 

[ananda]

Back when we had small village life, you were lucky to make it past 30 before disease killed you, or someone clubbed you to death to take your things. People have a very rose colored views of the past. Human life was incredibly brutal at the beginnings of civilization. There were no police, no law and order. It was a Darwinian cage match. That is a major reason our population grew so slowly prior to, and in early settlement times. For all its flaws, governments and society led to much longer lifetimes and an explosion in population.

Do you believe we can't have law and order - without the Corporation?

 

[FreeinChrist]

The whole idea of the corporation needs to be done away with. Not simply regulation. It is inherently evil.

I don't think that is remotely responsible.

But I would like to see a constitutional amendment passed that says corporations are not people (think Citizens United) and that campaign donations can only be $X amount, and that all donations need to be documented publicly. Then pass reasonable regulations like limiting the % profit a pharmaceutical company can make on a drug (think EpiPens) and stick to regulations about where waste can be dumped, and things like that.

 

[dgiharris]

....in that the very nature of The Corporation allows the individual to shield himself from liability. It doesn't scare an incorporated business proprietor to cut edges any which way he can manage, when his personal wealth is legally shielded apart from his business venture.

This isn't quite accurate. Legally, the corporation is liable and can be sued. Also, most individuals have their personal wealth tied into the corporation. THere is a HUGE incentive for said person to make sure that he sells safe products. I will grant that argument that there would be "more" of an incentive if his personal wealth were also up for grabs. I will say that even though an individuals personal wealth is shielded they are still criminally liable for certain things and could face actual jail time.

Basically, it is possible for your argument to be correct in one aspect but overall still flawed which I think it is.
#1) Corporations can be sued
#2) Individuals who "own" the corporation still have significant monetary incentive to adhere to regulations and to want to produce good products
#3) Individuals who work within the corporation and/or own the corporation can still face criminal charges for certain acts

The other item you are neglecting is that without legal protection, corporations would not be capable of doing some of the things they do. Without the concept of shares and shareholders you end up with a medieval type of economic system which historically speaking wasn't all that great.

I do think it is possible for us to meet in the middle somewhat.

You do raise a valid point and I would say that what we "should" do as a society is make it easier to prosecute members of corporations for crimes of negligence or downright malfeasance. When a corporation knowingly or through gross incompetence or negligence creates a product or service that harms or kills the consumer then on top of lawsuits and monetary damages people within that company should go to jail. ANd not country club jail... real jail.

 

[dgiharris]

But I would like to see a constitutional amendment passed that says corporations are not people ..... Then pass reasonable regulations like limiting the % profit a pharmaceutical company can make on a drug (think EpiPens) and stick to regulations about where waste can be dumped, and things like that.

I think we should make it easier to prosecute people within corporations for crimes when their products or services harm or kill consumers and they knowingly released the product or service regardless or without due diligence.

I also think that certain things (like Health Care) should NOT be unfettered. Invisible hand economics doesn't work when you go to an extreme and health care is an extreme-- extreme demand. That is, how much are you willing to pay to live? Mathematical models don't do well with extremes and when you have a product or service that is in infinite demand (i.e. your consumer will pay ANYTHING to have it and live) then that is a recipe ripe for harming the economy as a whole and your typical economics of supply and demand don't apply. You will have price fixing and collaboration denial of benefit and treatments etc.

So for certain things like Health care, Prisons, etc the government needs to be involved and regulate acceptable profits. Corporations for the drug companies should be required to open their books to the government and they should be run with a regulated profit margin to protect the consumer. THey shouldn't be getting rich on the lives and deaths of consumers...

 

[ananda]

I don't think that is remotely responsible.

Why not?

I find people who hide behind their corporations to be irresponsible - literally! They don't want to take direct responsibility for their actions.

 

[ananda]

This isn't quite accurate. Legally, the corporation is liable and can be sued. Also, most individuals have their personal wealth tied into the corporation. THere is a HUGE incentive for said person to make sure that he sells safe products. I will grant that argument that there would be "more" of an incentive if his personal wealth were also up for grabs. I will say that even though an individuals personal wealth is shielded they are still criminally liable for certain things and could face actual jail time.

Basically, it is possible for your argument to be correct in one aspect but overall still flawed which I think it is.
#1) Corporations can be sued
#2) Individuals who "own" the corporation still have significant monetary incentive to adhere to regulations and to want to produce good products
#3) Individuals who work within the corporation and/or own the corporation can still face criminal charges for certain acts

The other item you are neglecting is that without legal protection, corporations would not be capable of doing some of the things they do. Without the concept of shares and shareholders you end up with a medieval type of economic system which historically speaking wasn't all that great.

I do think it is possible for us to meet in the middle somewhat.

You do raise a valid point and I would say that what we "should" do as a society is make it easier to prosecute members of corporations for crimes of negligence or downright malfeasance. When a corporation knowingly or through gross incompetence or negligence creates a product or service that harms or kills the consumer then on top of lawsuits and monetary damages people within that company should go to jail. ANd not country club jail... real jail.

It does not solve the other problem of corporations being able to grow beyond (in my eyes) natural limits of a single man (or woman). This inherent attribute of corporations destroy local community, nature, & our connection with nature, in exchange for the pursuit of wealth greater than what one man or woman can personally and normally acquire working as a sole proprietor.