"..not shall be left STONE UPON STONE in Thee.." Jerusalem/Temple Discourse

[LittleLambofJesus]

This will be a discussion concerning the phrase "stone upon stone" as prophecied by Jesus concerning the 1st century Temple.
[I put certain options in the poll but if others would like me to add to them, I am able to do that for a period of time.

[Here is a link to my harmony of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse for those interested [feel free to bring up any errors that you may find. Thank you]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

I am going to put up the only 4 verses from the entire Bible that use that exact phrase, along with the Greek texts.
I hope this edifies others as much as it has me.

Matthew 24:
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple<2411>, and His disciples came near to show Him the buildings of the Temple,
2 And answering He said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down/demolished<2647>.”
2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον, ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται1.

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “these great buildings which thou are observing,
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down/demolished<2647>
2 καὶ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ· βλέπεις ταύτας τὰς μεγάλας οἰκοδομάς;1 οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον. ὃς οὐ μὴ καταλυθῇ2.

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding,
shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down/demolished<2647>
6 ταῦτα ἃ θεωρεῖτε, ἐλεύσονται ἡμέραι ἐν αἷς οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται λίθος ἐπὶ λίθῳ, ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται1.

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "that if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season/time<2540> of the visitation of Thee".
44 καὶ ἐδαφιοῦσίν1 σε καὶ τὰ τέκνα σου ἐν σοί, καὶ οὐκ ἀφήσουσιν λίθον ἐπὶ λίθον ἐν σοί, ἀνθ’ ὧν οὐκ ἔγνως τὸν καιρὸν τῆς ἐπισκοπῆς2 σου.

..............................................TO BE CONTINUED

 

[Lost4words]

I think its very clear that Jesus was talking regarding 70AD.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Interesting metaphor. Jesus was referring to the polished limestone façade stones of the temple, which were torn down by the Romans, leaving the crude foundational wall pretty much intact (as seen in the 'wailing wall' which stands to this day.

One meaning could be that the worship of God, which was clearly centered around Herod's grand temple, had become a façade, the real foundation of such worship being hidden from view, replaced, as Jesus pointed out, by 'the traditions of the Jews'.

Also interesting is that unlike the Babylonians and others who would have dug up and destroyed even the foundations of the temple the Romans left it intact, perhaps intending to build something else upon it at a later time (this too is a metaphor).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All 3 use the same the greek word #2647.

G2647 καταλύω - Strong's Greek Lexicon

2647. kataluo from 2596 and 3089;
to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specially (compare 2646) to halt for the night:--destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

Matthew and Luke use the exact same form of it

καταλυθήσεται — 3x
Speech: Verb
Parsing: Future Indicative Passive
3rd Person Singular

Matthew 24:2
And answering He said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down/demolished<καταλυθήσεται 2647>.”

Luke 21:6
These which ye are beholding,
shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down/demolished<καταλυθήσεται 2647>

It is used in only 1 other verse:

Acts 5:38
and now I say to you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone,
because if this counsel or this work may be of men, it shall be being overthrown/demolished<καταλυθήσεται 2647>,

The form of the word Mark uses is used in 1 other verse:

καταλυθῇ — 2x
Speech: Verb
Parsing: Aorist Subjunctive Passive
3rd Person Singular

Mark 13:2
And Jesus answering said to him, “these great buildings which thou are observing,
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down/demolished<καταλυθῇ 2647>

2Co 5:1
For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down<καταλυθῇ 2647>, a building from God we have,
an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens,

verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From κατά (G2596) and λύω (G3089)
Greek Inflections of καταλύω
mGNT — 17x in 9 unique form(s) TR — 17x in 9 unique form(s)
κατάλυε — 1x
καταλυθῇ — 2x
καταλυθήσεται — 3x
καταλῦσαι — 5x
καταλύσει — 1x
καταλύσω — 1x
καταλύσωσιν — 1x
καταλύων — 2x
κατέλυσα — 1x

===============================================
Luke 19 uses this greek word #1474. It is used in only this 1 verse of the NT.
There appears to be some OT references to it:

1474. edaphizo from 1475;
to raze:--lay even with the ground.
STRONGS NT 1474: ἐδαφιζο
ἐδαφιζο: Attic future ἐδαφιω (Buttmann, 37 (32); Winers Grammar, § 13, 1 c.); (see ἔδαφος); to throw to the ground — both of cities, buildings, to raze, level with the earth, and of men; in both applications in Luke 19:44 (by zeugma (?) cf. Winer's Grammar, § 66, 2 e.). (Psalm 136:9 (Ps. 137:9); Isaiah 3:26; Ezekiel 31:12; Hosea 14:1 (Hosea 13:16); Amos 9:14 (Ald.);
rare in secular writings, as (Aristotle, probl. 23, 29); Polybius 6, 33, 6.)

Luke 19:44
And shall be leveling<1474> Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,

Luke 19:44 Commentaries:

Vincent's Word Studies
Lay thee even with the ground (ἐδαφιοῦσιν)
Only here in New Testament. Primarily, to beat level, like a threshing-floor or pavement. The Septuagint uses it in the sense of dashing down to the ground (Psalm 137:9, and elsewhere). So Rev., from the succeeding reference to the children, and in allusion to the Psalms.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(44) And shall lay thee even with the ground.—See Note on Matthew 24:2. What is there said of the Temple, is here repeated of the city as a whole, and describes a general demolition of everything that could be demolished. So Josephus (Wars, viii. 1, § 1) describes the work as being done so effectively that, with the exception of one or two towers and part of the walls, the fortifications were so laid even with the ground that there was nothing left to make those that came thither believe that that part of the city had been inhabited.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 19:44. ἐδαφιοῦσι: this verb (here only in N.T., Sept[155] several times) has both σε and τὰ τέκνα σ. for its objects and must have a meaning assigned to it suitable to each: (1) to raze to the ground—in reference to the city, (2) to dash to the ground—in reference to the children or population of the city. Here only in N.T., frequent in Sept[156]—τὸν καιρὸν τ. ἐπισκοπῆς σ., the season of thy gracious visitation.—ἐπισκοπή and its corresponding verb have this meaning in N.T. In Sept[157] it is a vox media and is used with reference to visitations both in mercy and in judgment.

[155] Septuagint.
[156] Septuagint.
[157] Septuagint.

...........................................TO BE CONTINUED..............................



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[JackRT]

One of the rules of valid prophesy fulfillment is that the prophesy in question be made after the event in question.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

\

One of the rules of valid prophesy fulfillment is that the prophesy in question be made after the event in question.

So which voting option would you vote for?


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[JackRT]

\
So which voting option would you vote for?.

Since the consensus of Biblical scholarship is that all four gospels were penned after the destruction of Jerusalem, I would objectively conclude that the prophesy is "questionable". I just went back and checked the "not sure" option.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Since the consensus of Biblical scholarship is that all four gospels were penned after the destruction of Jerusalem, I would objectively conclude that the prophesy is "questionable". I just went back and checked the "not sure" option.

So the Holy Spirit was unable to accurately recall those events for the writers?

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The disciples asked Jesus,
When shall these things be. (one stone upon another).
What shall be the sign of thy coming.
What shall be the sign of the consummation of the age.

Jesus said, "See ye not ALL these things?

All these things included the Wailing wall which is probably the only thing standing on the Temple mount that Jesus in his day.

When the wall falls birth pangs are here.


View attachment 248750

Interesting thought.

 

[jgr]

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

The wall "was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount." It "held no special significance" when the Temple was destroyed.

Jesus' prediction was fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus said, "See ye not ALL these things?
All these things included the Wailing wall which is probably the only thing standing on the Temple mount that Jesus in his day.
When the wall falls birth pangs are here.

How come GOD didn't spare their Temple?
At least the Jews don't have to worry about a wall being around their city.......

Zec 2:
4 who said to him, “Run, speak to this young man, saying:
‘Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls, because of the multitude of men and livestock in it.
5 ‘For I,’ says the LORD, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’ ”

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us......
========================================
Notice where the 10th Legion is camped..............

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

By 70, the rebellion in all of Judaea had been crushed, except for Jerusalem and a few fortresses, including Masada.
In that year X Fretensis, in conjunction with V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, and XV Apollinaris, began the siege of Jerusalem, stronghold of the rebellion.
The Xth camped on the Mount of Olives.

During the siege, Legio X gained fame in the effective use of their various war machines.

It was noted that they were able to hurl stones that weighted a talent (about 25 kg) a distance of two furlongs (400 m) or further..............

Revelation 16:21
And great Hail as talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven/Sky upon the Men,
and they blaspheme the God out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous

........

Vid best viewed full screen...........

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[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[jgr]

Jesus said, "SEE YE NOT ALL THESE THINGS!"

There were several buildings on the temple site.

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

"All these things" refers to the precedent "buildings of the temple".

According to the cited Jewish historians, the wall "was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."

A retaining wall is not architecturally considered to be a building.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[jgr]

That's right. The disciples asked Jesus to show them the buildings of the Temple. Jesus said, "see ye not ALL these things?" He didn't say see ye not all these buildings.

"The buildings of the temple" constitutes the precedence and context to define the meaning of "all these things". Without it, "all these things" could mean everything in a horizontal 360 degree radius, plus everything vertically up and down.

"The buildings of the temple" provides the necessary qualification for the description.

A separate retaining wall does not qualify architecturally as a building.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus said, "SEE YE NOT ALL THESE THINGS!"

There were several buildings on the temple site.

Why didn't God save their Temple and Sanctuary instead of just leaving them with 1 wailing wall?

The most important and sacred building in the whole Jewish world..........reduced to dust and rubble in just under 6 months in 70ad.......
==================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins...........

G3485 (YLT)
G3485 ναός (naos) occurs 46 times in 40 verses in the Greek

John 2:20 The Jews therefore said, 'Forty and six years was this Sanctuary building, and wilt thou in three days raise it up?'

The Court in Revelation 11:2

Revelation 11:1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it

Here is a post some may be interested concerning John standing in a symbolic Tabernacle in Revelation

New House New Stones

In essence, John is first facing the Table of OC Show-bread
and when he turns, he sees the NC "Living Bread",

 

[jgr]

That's right. The disciples asked Jesus to show them the buildings of the Temple. Jesus said, "see ye not ALL these things?" He didn't say see ye not all these buildings.

Mark provides additional clarification.

Mark 13
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

[JackRT]

LittleLambofJesus --- may I suggest that you make your point as briefly and succinctly as possible rather than the lengthy but colourful word salads you are so fond of?

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye