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Not "feeling" God's presence

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HeatherG

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A lot of people have been mentioning how they don't "feel" saved or sense God's presence etc. Today I heard something that surprised me. Apparently some letters of Mother Theresa have been found that reveal that for the last 40 years or so of her life she was unable to feel Christ's presence and love as she used to and went through something of a crisis of faith. Yet she perservered and kept serving Him faithfully as usual. I guess it can happen to all of us, and it is an encouragement to keep going, whatever our feelings may tell us. I believe God is especially pleased when we remain faithful to Him in spite of our wavering emotions and confused minds.

Heather
 

BeccaLynn

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That is encouraging to me, but one of my big fears is that since I have seemingly never felt much when it comes to God, except for fear and the lack of acceptance (wondering if it's me not accepting Him or the other way around), that even though I'm trying to be faithful that I'm just being religious. I've heard so many times that people can be very religious and feel a duty to perform religious obligations without being in a right relationship with God. Things like that really have terrified me and I get truly concerned that I'm just going through the motions. Do you know what I mean?

Rebecca
 
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ObsessedButBlessed

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I was going to post something about this, but you beat me to it!! :) I read the entire Time article and I was very surprised and somewhat encouraged. Of course the part where the athiests talked about how she probably realized God/religion was a bunch of hogwash and felt her life was meaningless without it so she did her good works so that her life had meaning.... that made my OCD spike just a bit! My big faith-centered OCD started with "what if God isn't real? Then my life is meaningless!"

The article mentioned that at one point, Mother Theresa even doubted God's existence! I wondered at that point if maybe she had a touch of OCD herself, in that it sounds like she needed to constantly "feel" God's presence in order to know He was real/He was with her.

We have no way of knowing Mother Theresa's true heart and if she was really saved. The OCD in me REALLY wants the certainty that she is saved and living happily in heaven, worshipping Jesus. I had mentioned the article to my boss (who is also a Christian) and about the remarks that the athiests had said, and he said "but she continued to do those things in spite of the lack of feelings. That is faith in action." I thought he had a really good point.

Rebecca, when I start to worry about those things, I just pray a simple prayer and ask God to give me faith, even when it feels like I don't believe or feels like my faith is lacking. I just continuously pray for faith. God has begun to restore my faith and my belief in him, but don't get me wrong - my OCD loves to trip it up a lot of times.
 
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stacii

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I love this thread. Indeed, how easy it would be for us to all be perfectly obedient Christians if we could always feel God's presence around us. However, we live in a state of sin and separation from God, and he asks us to serve him no matter what. There are so many big names in the Christian faith who have said this very thing. Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, John Calvin. But they persisted. And we can too!
 
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HeatherG

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That is encouraging to me, but one of my big fears is that since I have seemingly never felt much when it comes to God, except for fear and the lack of acceptance (wondering if it's me not accepting Him or the other way around), that even though I'm trying to be faithful that I'm just being religious. I've heard so many times that people can be very religious and feel a duty to perform religious obligations without being in a right relationship with God. Things like that really have terrified me and I get truly concerned that I'm just going through the motions. Do you know what I mean?

Rebecca
Becca, I know what you mean. But since you are obviously so concerned about having a right relationship with God, I'm sure you wouldn't be guilty of "going through the motions" for the wrong reasons. If you have asked Jesus to be your saviour, He has done that. How can you be sure? By His promises. My pastor actually touched on this in his sermon today. He said it is a bit like getting married. You go through the ceremony, say your vows and sign the certificate. You are then married. If someone later asked if you were married, you wouldn't say, "Well, I'm not sure"! It's the same with our relationship with Jesus. If you have asked Him into your life, He has come, no matter what emotions you did or didn't feel. I know you know this already but your OCD is telling you otherwise.

You know when you just can't get to sleep and the harder you try, the more impossible it becomes? I think it's like that with trying to have the "right" feelings or experiences about God. Maybe we should all just relax and try not to have any preconceptions about what we should be feeling. He has already accepted us by His grace, and this is a fact, whether we feel it or not. Who knows, when we stop worrying about it He may reveal Himself in a way that we never expected.
 
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BeccaLynn

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Heather,

I have actually heard that before, and it does bring me some comfort. However, I've heard ministers, I'm thinking even Billy Graham was one them, who said that not everyone who goes to the alter gets saved. Things like this stick out in my mind and are rehearsed there. A man who used to sing with a popular southern gospel group came once to the church I was raised in. He came just 1 week after something was said in the previous sermon that I really thought I could hold onto when doubting my personal relationship with God. This man said he had sang for years with this group, and he had obviously been churched, yet it took a heart attack for him to come face to face with the fact that he didn't truly have a relationship with God. He talked about just being religious verses a real relationship. He asked everyone to close their eyes and for everyone who did have this personal relationship as he was talking about to raise their hand. I couldn't. It is a small church and, in my mind, I felt God had maybe sent him there for me. I think he had called to pastor and asked to come. Of course, he wanted anyone who didn't raise their hand to come forward. I didn't because I have done this before to no avail. It's like a wall I can't get through or something. I was even embarrassed after it was all over to look at him. I knew he had seen me, hand unraised, and probably thought I just didn't want to surrender my life to God. I can try to think of things, like not "feeling" married, which by the way I didn't feel for around the first 6 months of marriage. But now, I do feel married. It seems salvation would be the same way. After a while, not saying, "am I sure I'm saved?" I've always thought that I honestly wasn't. My minister has said recently from the pulpit that he's not felt God lately as he used to, and has cried out to God to return the feeling of His presence to him because he doesn't want to go without that in his life. He very much feels God, and wouldn't understand someone not. I just feel so stuck and angry sometimes.

Rebecca
 
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ObsessedButBlessed

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Heather, I love that analogy about being saved and being married. That's a great way to look at it. And before OCD, that's how I was about being saved - I didn't think about it all the time, but if someone stop and asked me, I'd say "of course! I am a Christian and proud of it." I didn't focus on whether or not I felt like a Christian, or whether or not I "felt" like I believed. It was just something I was, and not something I felt. With OCD, I have been searching for some emotion or feeling that should tell me that I really believe.

In the Bible, God doesn't say anything like "well, if you feel saved, then you're definitely saved, but if you don't feel saved, then you'd better watch out!" He does warn against being like the Pharisees and making a big display out of praying or publicly giving gifts, because their heart is not about praying sincerely or giving offerings to God, but wanting approval and admiration from other people. Rebecca, nothing you have posted would ever lead me to believe that you are doing it because of those intentions. You worry so much about doing things the right way or having the right intentions... people who don't care about those things don't worry about them. You worry because of the OCD!

As far as the married thing, nothing specific has happened over the last 9 months since I got married for me to say "wow, now I really feel married!" The truth is, life feels just the same as it did before we got married. If my husband went away for 10 years, it wouldn't change the fact that we are still married. Maybe sometimes I would feel married, maybe sometimes I wouldn't. I think it's the same way with salvation. Maybe sometimes I feel like I'm saved or really believe, maybe sometimes I doubt it. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that I am saved. I don't expect to wake up one day and say "wow, now I DEFINITELY feel saved!" If I did, it wouldn't mean that I wasn't saved for all those years leading up to it.

The truth is, God doesn't say "You're only saved if you feel like you're saved." If that were the case, we'd be saved and unsaved several times a day!

Maybe that singer that came to your church has a point. Instead of focusing on if we feel it or not, what we should focus on is having a relationship with God. It's like being married - sometimes you will choose to love your spouse even if you don't feel like it, even if they are a big jerk and you'd rather not talk to them. But you do it anyway because you're committed and you love them. So you still have a relationship with them, even when it's the pits. So we do the same with God, even if we don't feel it when we're praying, even if we don't feel it while we're worshipping. We're doing it out of obedience, love, and honor for God.

Your OCD will say "but you don't really love God, so you're just going through the motions." Whenever my OCD likes to act up like that, I just ask God to silence my mind and allow me to continue to pray or worship him. I try to ignore and avoid checking my feelings to see if I really feel moved or feel like I'm sincere enough. God knows my heart. He knows my desire to love him and honor him. And He knows I have OCD. So I'm left with no choice but to trust that God knows what's really going on with me.

The bottom line is, if you really didn't want to believe or care about being saved, you wouldn't worry about it. You would go on living your life as an unbeliever and not give two hoots about going to church or having a relationship with God. That is how non-OCD, non-believers live their lives. God, however, is holding you in the palm of His hand, and will not let go.
 
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HeatherG

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The truth is, God doesn't say "You're only saved if you feel like you're saved." If that were the case, we'd be saved and unsaved several times a day!


The bottom line is, if you really didn't want to believe or care about being saved, you wouldn't worry about it. You would go on living your life as an unbeliever and not give two hoots about going to church or having a relationship with God. That is how non-OCD, non-believers live their lives. God, however, is holding you in the palm of His hand, and will not let go.

I think these are very true words from Sad. Becca, I do wonder if you are getting upset unnecessarily from things that various preachers say because you haven't tested what they have said against the Word of God. Billy Graham or anyone else may say what they like, but God's Word says, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom 10:9). That's good enough for me.

Let's think about what a relationship with God is. I would say it means that I am talking to God, and He is talking to me. I have heard some Christians say things like, "I was talking to the Lord this morning and He was saying I should do such and such." I always have a mixture of scepticism and awe when I hear that. I wonder whether some of them are exaggerating, while for others I truly envy their closeness to God.

I guess for me, it is just as simple as reading a Bible passage, then later in the day someone may say something on a similar theme, then again I may hear something on the same topic in a sermon or on the radio or in a devotional that someone emails me. I then may think that God is trying to tell me something and I try to apply it to my life. What I am trying to say is that for some of us our relationship with God may be quite simple. We are all on different levels. I hope I can continue to grow in closeness to the Lord, but at the moment I am just not on the level of me saying one sentence and God replying immediately with His response. However, it does not mean I'm not saved because the Bible tells me I am because I have accepted Christ. It's not about what I have done but what He has done.

I would say the best way to improve your relationship with God is to read the Bible and pray. Just share things with Him as you do here, even your fears of Him not accepting you. That way you will be developing an honest relationship with Him. When you listen to sermons by anyone, always question whether it lines up with God's Word. If it does, fine. But also remember that your OCD may make you hyper-sensitive to thinking that everything about judgement applies to you when really that wasn't the point of the sermon.

I hope I am not sounding patronizing. I don't mean to be. I have spent a long time in my Christian life questioning my own salvation so I wanted to share some things I have learnt while I am feeling better.

God bless,
Heather
 
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BeccaLynn

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Thank you Sad and Heather. I really do better when I can just relax and say, "Regardless of how I feel, I'm just going on with God". But it is such a tremedously scary feeling when it seems as if God is confirming that I'm not saved. After a young cousin died, I became much more aware of how none of us are guaranteed another day. I feared so much over being unsaved, and the reality of eternity seemed all the more real. To get away, I asked my husband to take my son and me out for a drive. My husband went into a store and, while he was gone, a sermon came on the radio station that was geared to get people to saving faith. I listened in fear, and when it was over I turned the station - Only to find that the exact same sermon was being preached on that station as well. I felt so much more fearful and lost, like God was trying over and over to reach me. Don't you have to trust that Jesus will save you for it to happen? Kind of like the story I hear of a man who was going over Niagra Falls in a barrell. He asked a man in the audience if he believed he could do it, and the man replied, "yes". He then told the man to get into the barrell with him, and the man refused because he didn't believe enough to risk his life. I'm concerned I say it, but that's all it is. I'm sorry, I know I repeat myself a lot, but the fear of finding myself eternally lost one day scares me so much. I want to believe I'm okay, but I'm afraid to do so. Something I mentioned in a previous post was about seeing a stranger in a store one night, suddenly becoming very fearful of him, as if he was good and I was not. Then, I found out he was a minister. I really felt evil then! I don't always feel this way, but then when I don't I get scared that I don't care anymore and that something is wrong with that too! No, you are not patronizing me. You are trying to encourage me and I'm appreciative. I have done much better than in the past, believe me. I've been an absolute wreck before, almost unable to function. This is me when I'm doing good and not obsessing too much. I will say that God has truly helped me with the instrusive thoughts that seemed blasphemous. They are extremely rare now. I think that has a lot to do with finding this forum and talking with a minister friend. Thanks so much for your care!

Rebecca
 
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marcb

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Interesting posts with well thought out answers.

I think most Christians have the experience of not "feeling" God's presence. I think they come to terms with it faster and don't take it to the same degree than those of us with ocd, but I could be wrong (I cannot speak from a non-ocd perspective). Before I go into a more clinical perspective, consider how blessed we are to be this driven to experience a true relationship with the Lord, even if it makes us crazy(er).

That being said, consider these questions:
1. Did I lock the door? Should I turn around and check? What if I didn't?
2. Did I leave the coffee maker on? Should I go home at lunch to check it? What if my house burns down?
3. Did the cat get out when I opened the door? What if he got out somehow and I never see him again? Should I go look around until I find him even though I'll be late for work?
4. Did that guy making my sandwhich at the deli wash his hands? What if he didn't and has hepatitis? What if I get really sick from the sandwhich?

Each situation starts with a normal question or thought and escalates into a disaster. The greater the potential disaster the more anxious we get and the more we can't shake the thoughts. Soon enough we are turning around, looking for cats, or answers about communicable diseases on the internet.

Turn around and check. It's really not that big of a deal.

Now, the granddaddy of them all:

Where's God? Where's that feeling I had in church just yesterday? Am I doubting my faith? Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved? Where did that thought come from?

The hard part is, we can't turn around. The wonderful part is, we don't have to. As Christians, God has saved us and is saving us. Christ's death and resurrection are not our work to "check." We have our doubts, but honestly, aren't most of the doubts we are expressing, our self-doubts as if we don't believe enough, aren't devout enough, etc? This is probably true for every Christian, but will not undo God's Grace.

Living under the cross,

Marc
 
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HeatherG

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Don't you have to trust that Jesus will save you for it to happen?
Rebecca

Yes, we need to trust, but God knows even better than we do to what extent we are able to trust. He meets us where we are, and He knows that for those of us with OCD this is harder than for most people. We can only try our best and then cry out "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief!" Nobody has a perfect faith. If it were up to us to have a 100% level of faith at all times, I honestly don't think any person on this Earth could be saved. The whole point is that Jesus has overcome our shortcomings. If you desire in your heart to please Him, He knows that already. If you would like to pray for more faith then I'm sure that is a request He would be pleased to answer. However, having more faith does not make us more saved. We are saved by grace at the moment when we summon what little faith we have and turn to Him.

Heather
 
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BeccaLynn

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Marc and Heather, THANKS! Marc, I really identify with the questions concerning the coffee pot, etc., and how I fear a disaster if I left it on, etc. The truth is that we can check those things, but God's Word is where we have to depend to "check" our salvation. My greatest problem seems to lie in that, even when I say, "Okay God, I may not feel you and I'm even afraid that I'm not sincere, but I choose to trust you". Then, I just don't seem to respond to life as a Christian should. My son even asked me one time if I was really a Christian because he said I didn't act like one. I try, but it's like a vicious cycle in my life. I can get angry over the least little thing and not know how to deal with it. What scares me the most are when things I've prayed seem to be answered in a way that show me I'm not right. I know that Christians don't always experience the same level of peace, but the time that I angrily told God I hated Him and said if I was a Christian, why didn't I have any peace. That very morning at church the preacher entitled his sermon, No Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, Know Peace. And afterward, had an alter call. I know you've answered me in the past about this Heather, but when I asked God, it sure seemed as if He was answering me back that that's why I personally didn't have the peace I sought. The only thing I know to do is to, as I've done before, tell God I don't understand why this happens, but I just choose Him. I do seem to do better when I say this. Thanks again everyone.

Rebecca
 
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ObsessedButBlessed

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Marc and Heather, THANKS! Marc, I really identify with the questions concerning the coffee pot, etc., and how I fear a disaster if I left it on, etc. The truth is that we can check those things, but God's Word is where we have to depend to "check" our salvation. My greatest problem seems to lie in that, even when I say, "Okay God, I may not feel you and I'm even afraid that I'm not sincere, but I choose to trust you". Then, I just don't seem to respond to life as a Christian should. My son even asked me one time if I was really a Christian because he said I didn't act like one. I try, but it's like a vicious cycle in my life. I can get angry over the least little thing and not know how to deal with it. What scares me the most are when things I've prayed seem to be answered in a way that show me I'm not right. I know that Christians don't always experience the same level of peace, but the time that I angrily told God I hated Him and said if I was a Christian, why didn't I have any peace. That very morning at church the preacher entitled his sermon, No Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, Know Peace. And afterward, had an alter call. I know you've answered me in the past about this Heather, but when I asked God, it sure seemed as if He was answering me back that that's why I personally didn't have the peace I sought. The only thing I know to do is to, as I've done before, tell God I don't understand why this happens, but I just choose Him. I do seem to do better when I say this. Thanks again everyone.

Rebecca
Rebecca, I cringed when I read the part about your son asking if you were really a Christian because you didn't act like it. I have had those EXACT same obsessions - I think, shouldn't a Christian be thinking about God all the time? Shouldn't a Christian be praising God all hours of the day? Shouldn't my love for Christ just radiate in me and people should just KNOW I'm a Christian? It really bugs me; I think a lot about how a Christian acts and how I am different from others who aren't Christians.

What I have concluded is that yeah, sometimes the Holy Spirit prods me. When I get this thought that I need to read the Bible, or I have a thought that says "maybe I shouldn't have said that or done that," I see it as the holy spirit prodding me a guiding me. Because of my OCD, I have shied away from reading the Bible because it spikes me and causes me to feel doubt and fear. But the other day, my husband asked me to look up a passage for him while we were driving.

I read it and felt instantly like I was meeting an old friend, and I had this huge desire to read more and more and more, everything I could get my hands on. It felt great!

But you know what? OCD had me back to doubting the very next day. It's the nature of the beast, and a very tiring one at that. You asked about needing to trust God... trust and faith are all about hoping for things that we don't have 100% certainty about. We can trust in our spouses, but do we have 100% certainty that they will always love us, be faithful to us, and take care of us? We can trust that the seatbelts we use will keep us safe in a car accident, but do we have 100% certainty that we'll always walk away from a car accident? No, but we live with the risk, and that is paramount with OCD as well. We accept the risk that there MAY NOT be a God and MAYBE WE'RE NOT really saved, but we will ask for faith, continue to follow Christ, and live our lives accordingly. We accept the risk, accept the feelings of doubt, but CHOOSE to follow Christ anyway.

It's just like checking the locks. The doors may not be locked, but in order to overcome OCD, we accept the risk that they may not be locked, and continue on with our day. Because no matter how many times we check the lock, OCD will keep us coming back for more.
 
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stacii

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Hi everyone. This has been the most meaningful thread I have read in a long time. Marc - your insight into how OCD escalates from a completely normal question that everyone, including non-ocders, ask was exactly what I needed to read right now, especially since I am really struggling. I actually laughed out loud - especially the part about looking up diseases on the internet. Thanks for the moment of enjoyment!

Rebecca - telling God that you choose him is the only thing that ever works for me too. I'll tell him for several days before I finally can get over it, but eventually after questioning my faith for what feels like forever, I just have to let it go. And I literally tell God that I give up. That maybe I can't justify my faith, that I can't prove it or wrap my mind around it, but that it's there anyway.

Thank you all so much for all of this insight. I feel so much better after reading this.
 
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gracealone

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I don't know why I'm so amazed at how similar all our thoughts and actions are on this forum.
I have concluded that all illness share certain symptoms so it's obviously the same with OCD. The difference is that with OCD we are always struggling to seperate the symptoms of the illness from what we percieve to be valid concerns. So it's very comforting to find out that most or all of what has been making us so miserable... is after all OCD.
This thread has been so encouraging to me... Thanks!!
Mitzi
p.s. (yep.. I look up diseases on the internet too and I've passed this part of my disorder onto my oldest son.. I think between the two of us we've had every disorder and cancer out there... well at least in our heads anyway.)
 
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