Not all the Church Fathers said Mary was sinless

abacabb3

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The testimony of tradition (Some quotes came from this link)

While none of the preceding verses definitively prove that Mary has ever sinned, several are suggestive that she had and two of them elevate the importance of discipleship above simply being Christ’s mother. Not surprisingly, the ancient church did not take a definitive stand on the issue because the Scriptural evidence did not demand it. However, quite a few Church Fathers appear to credit Mary with wrongdoing or insufficient faith:

Examples of insufficient faith:

He was justly indignant, that persons so very near to Him stood without, while strangers were within hanging on His words, especially as they wanted to call Him away from the solemn work He had in hand. He did not so much deny as disavow them. And therefore, when to the previous question, Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? He added the answer None but they who hear my words and do them, He transferred the names of blood-relationship to others, whom He judged to be more closely related to Him by reason of their faith (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 4, Ch. 19).

For, doubtless, some such train of thought as this passed through her mind: ‘I conceived Him That is mocked upon the Cross. He said, indeed, that He was the true Son of Almighty God, but it may be that He was deceived; He may have erred when He said: I am the Life. How did His crucifixion come to pass?and how was He entangled in the snares of His murderers? How was it that He did not prevail over the conspiracy of His persecutors against Him? And why does He not come down from the Cross, though He bade Lazarus return to life, and struck all Judaea with amazement by His miracles?” The woman, as is likely, not exactly understanding the mystery, wandered astray into some such train of thought(Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, Book 12).

Wrongdoing:

And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, Who is My mother, and who are My brethren? Matthew 12:48, because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him…And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, Woman, what have I to do with you?instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of hersoul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 21).

They have no wine. For she desired both to do them a favor, and through her Son to render herself more conspicuous; perhaps too she had some humanfeelings, like His brethren, when they said, Show yourself to the world John 17:4, desiring to gain credit from His miracles. Therefore He answered somewhat vehemently” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 21).

…St Hilary in his Annotations on the 20th verse of the cxixth [119th] Psalm, “My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments,” applies it unto the future judgment and among other observations has this passage, “Seeing we must render an account for every idle word do we desire the day of judgment in which that unwearied fire is to be passed through in which those grievous punishments are to be undergone for the expiating of a soul from sin [1 Cor 3:12], a sword shall pass through the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed [Luke 2:35]. If that Virgin who bore God is to come into the severity of the judgment will any one dare desire to be judged by God?” (Excerpt of Hilary of Poitiers Homily on Psalm 119).

Although they [Christ’s family] had like the rest power to come in, yet they abstain from all approach to Him, “for he came unto his own, and his own received him not” (Hilary of Poitiers commenting of Matt 12:50).

Links to Church Father quotes are here.
 
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patricius79

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The testimony of tradition (Some quotes came from this link)

Wrongdoing:

And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, Who is My mother, and who are My brethren? Matthew 12:48, because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him…And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, Woman, what have I to do with you?instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of hersoul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 21).
.

Yep, Chrysostom was mistaken in this case, though he was right about Peter's Supremacy.

Thankfully St. Augustine got it right about Mary's sinlessness:

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?" (Nature and Grace 36:42)
 
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concretecamper

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" ......to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him…And so this was a reason why He rebukedher on that occasion, saying, Woman,what have I to do with you?instructingher for the future not to do the like....."

Take a peek at the story of when the demons entered into the swine. What did the demons say to Jesus? Then compare it to the area I quoted from your post. Do you want us to believe that the demons were actually rebuking Jesus? Or....where they awaiting His command?
 
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abacabb3

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Yep, Chrysostom was mistaken in this case, though he was right about Peter's Supremacy.

Thankfully St. Augustine got it right about Mary's sinlessness:

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?" (Nature and Grace 36:42)
Good point, and Jerome and Ambrose would have concurred with him. I think more ECFs sided with Mary's sinlessness than those who implicitly questioned it. My point is that in the early church, one can not hold to the sinlessness of Mary and not be heterodox.
 
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abacabb3

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" ......to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him…And so this was a reason why He rebukedher on that occasion, saying, Woman,what have I to do with you?instructingher for the future not to do the like....."

Take a peek at the story of when the demons entered into the swine. What did the demons say to Jesus? Then compare it to the area I quoted from your post. Do you want us to believe that the demons were actually rebuking Jesus? Or....where they awaiting His command?

Honestly, I would have to look at the Greek to know if the same word for rebuke was used, because I cannot find it in my Bible. However, being that demons are evil, there is nothing odd about Christ rebuking demons...though it is odd for CHrist to rebuke His mother if we are to believe she never has ever done anything worthy of rebuke.
 
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patricius79

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Good point, and Jerome and Ambrose would have concurred with him. I think more ECFs sided with Mary's sinlessness than those who implicitly questioned it. My point is that in the early church, one can not hold to the sinlessness of Mary and not be heterodox.

Or to put it more accurately: in the early Catholic Church, one could not believe that Mary sinned without being heterodox.
 
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abacabb3

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The point is were the demons rebuking Christ..... which we all know could not happen.

8:29 And behold they cried out, saying: What have we to do with thee,
If Christ rebukes a demon He is right.
If a demon rebukes Christ it is wrong.
If Christ rebukes His mother He is right.
If His mother rebukes CHrist she is wrong.

Is there something I am missing?
 
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abacabb3

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Well, for one you are missing the 4th commandment.

Secondly, Christ never rebuked His mother...that is the point of comparing the 2 scropture passages.

Rebuking a parent, if the parent committed sin, is not sin. For this reason, Chrysostom said that Christ rebuked Mary.

Again, perhaps you are smarter than Chrysostom and have a better insight into the 4th commandment than he does.

Let's keep it real simple. If you father says something nasty to the waiter because he's getting old and grouchy, when the waiter walks away it isn't sin to say, "Dad, I understand that they didn't have the halibut and that's disappointing, but go easy on the waiter!"

Rebuking can be done respectfully. Of course, because you are forcing yourself into an illogical corner, you have to deny this obvious fact in order to make your point that Chrysostom has to be wrong...while, a better point for you to make would be that Chyrsostom's interpretation is wrong, though Christ can rebuke without committing sin.
 
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patricius79

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Which is incorrect and why you need to actually ready what Chrysostom and others actually wrote in the first post.

What do you mean? You said yourself that the early Church fathers generally favored Mary's sinlessness.

Even Chrysostom, who was one of those who was confused on this issue, said that Mary was Ever-Virgin and the New Eve.

Likewise Ambrose says she was Ever-Virgin and Sinless.
 
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concretecamper

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If Christ rebukes a demon He is right.
If a demon rebukes Christ it is wrong.
If Christ rebukes His mother He is right.
If His mother rebukes CHrist she is wrong.

Is there something I am missing?

If you read the Fulton Sheen reference, this will be redundant.

(“what have you to do with me”), biblical scholars point out that the original Greek here can also be translated as, “What is that to you and to me?” In other words, Jesus is asking her if she understands how her request will impact both of their lives. I think the next sentence (“My hour has not yet come”) confirms this understanding.

As of that moment, Jesus’ hour had not yet come. But, once he performs the miracle, then his hour will begin. His march to the Cross will begin. A course will be set that will cause great suffering for both him and his mother. I think Jesus simply wants to make sure that Mary truly understands what is about to happen and the full scope of her request.
 
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abacabb3

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What do you mean? You said yourself that the early Church fathers generally favored Mary's sinlessness.

Even Chrysostom, who was one of those who was confused on this issue, said that Mary was Ever-Virgin and the New Eve.

Likewise Ambrose says she was Ever-Virgin and Sinless.
They did, but CHrysostom was not heterodox for voicing doubts in her sinlessness.
 
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abacabb3

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If you read the Fulton Sheen reference, this will be redundant.

(“what have you to do with me”), biblical scholars point out that the original Greek here can also be translated as, “What is that to you and to me?” In other words, Jesus is asking her if she understands how her request will impact both of their lives. I think the next sentence (“My hour has not yet come”) confirms this understanding.

As of that moment, Jesus’ hour had not yet come. But, once he performs the miracle, then his hour will begin. His march to the Cross will begin. A course will be set that will cause great suffering for both him and his mother. I think Jesus simply wants to make sure that Mary truly understands what is about to happen and the full scope of her request.
You might want to reply back to my most recent post to you, not to a post you have already replied to.
 
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patricius79

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They did, but CHrysostom was not heterodox for voicing doubts in her sinlessness.

He wasn't materially orthodox on that point. But Chrysostom was a faithful Catholic and believer in Peter's Supremacy. I'm sure he would have accepted the correction of the Papacy and other Catholics if the issue had come to a head in his time.
 
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concretecamper

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First, rebuking your parent in public is wrong....whether they deserve or not.

Second, if Chrysostom contends Christ was rebuking His mother, he is wrong.

Third, if you follow all of Chrysostom teachings with the same fervor, I can't complain about that.

Lesson learned.....no one man is bigger than the Church. Follow Church teaching, don't cherry pick from the fathers
 
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abacabb3

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He wasn't materially orthodox on that point. But Chrysostom was a faithful Catholic and believer in Peter's Supremacy. I'm sure he would have accepted the correction of the Papacy and other Catholics if the issue had come to a head in his time.
Or, being that he publicly said these things and what translated into Latin, there was no desire to correct him because what you state was always accepted doctrine of the church was not during that time. Hence, one can be orthodox and take a differing position on a matter, if it is under disagreement as a matter of crucial doctrine.
 
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Catherineanne

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Neither Luke nor Mark was present during these episodes and it is doubtful that the writer of Matthew was either.

So this then begs the question, who was there? Who knew what happened, and who said what? Who told the disciples the context, and pointed to her Son, as she consistently does in Scripture? Who took the line of playing down her own virtues and pointing to her Son as Saviour? We know she speaks to the disciples; where else did they get the information about his birth, of the flight into Egypt, of his getting lost at the age of 12; this can only have come from Mary.

Read it again, with the understanding that where Mary speaks of herself to the disciples she does so with quiet grace, never putting herself above any other disciple, any other apostle. Where she appears at all, she points to her son, but she rarely appears; she remains faithfully in the background, supporting him but not attempting to take anything away from him.

It is she who tells us, through Luke, and through Matthew, that anyone who does the will of her Son is as close to him as she is herself. It is not Christ who says this; it is Mary herself. Where Mary is humbled, it is by her own choice.

The evidence for Mary's sinlessness is that she does not appear in the Gospels dressed in red and wearing a golden crown. She does not demand special treatment, or special titles. When she visits her son she waits outside until he asks to see her.

Which of us could behave like this? Only Mary.
 
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