Norwegian variations - nature, culture, architechture etc.

PaaKne

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While waiting for some other who have been in Scandinavia to join us, a small correction to my statement

...The Norwegian is the oldest and from 1821, ...

The Norwegian flag is from 1821, but until 1898 it didn't look quite like today: As Norway and Sweden had a common King (theoretically "above" the contries, practially Swedish). both of those contries flag looked a bit different from the flag used today The Norwegian flag looked like http://om.yr.no/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/sildesalaten.jpg, the Swedish looked like https://scontent-cdg2-1.cdninstagra...e35/14334667_1780809272202392_636288098_n.jpg. The union mark (often called "sildesalaten"/"sildsalladen" or "the Herring Salad" - wasn't well-seen by people in any of the two countries).
 
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Kalevalatar

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I think around Kirkenes there is a border with Russia, but formerly this area (Pechenga/Petsamo) over the border from Kirkenes was part of Finland, right?

The Pasvik tri-border area of Finland-Norway-Russia has always been a multicultural, multilingual meeting point. East-west, north-south, Lutheran/Orthodox/Sami shamanism. For centuries there was no border as the Sami and their semi-nomadic reindeer knew no borders. It was the zeal to tax the Sami that prompted the establishment of borders.

Fun fact: The (NATO-)Norwegian-Russian bordertown Kirkenes ("Church Headland") is actually located east of Finland and east of Istanbul = the European border with Asia.

Another anecdote: Liinahamari, the ice-free port of then-Finnish Petsamo, is the only Finnish target that Great Britain, an ally of Stalin, did actually bomb during the Second World War. The Brits also bombed neighbouring Kirkenes.

Finnmark (Ruija in Finnish) has a tiny old Finnish minority called the Kvens who speak the Kven language. During the Finnish national awakening in the 19th and early 20th century, the Norwegian government, not unlike the czarist Russia, was worried that the Kvens would be disloyal to Oslo or that Finland would even try to conquer the Norwegian Kvenland part and Oslo, as so many governments around the world tend to do, used this imagined Finnish threat to oppress and discriminate against the Kvens and the "landless" Sami, ban the use of Kven language etc. as part of the Norwegianization campaign.

The Russian Kola peninsula, meanwhile, also had a tiny old Finnish minority, the Muurman/Murmansk Finns or Turja Finns (Ruija and Turja are both old semi-mythical Finnish names for the far north, ultima thule) as well as a Norwegian minority, the Kola Norwegians, who kept alive the pidgin Russenorsk, Russo-Norwegian trade language of the Pomors, the seafaring coastal Arctic people of Northern Norway and Russia ("a person who lived near sea"). Norse sagas refer to Bjarmia or Bjarmaland.

Turjan Sami, Ter Sami of the Kola peninsula, is one of the many Sami dialects. The Skolt Sami have a distinct culture because they are Eastern Orthodox rather than Laestadian/Lutheran. When Finland had to cede Petsamo to the Soviet Union, the Skolts lost their homes as they, too, had to relocate on the Finnish side of the border. Today, Inari, the largest and most sparsely populated municipality in Finland, with four official languages (Finnish, Inari Sami, Skolt Sami and Northern Sami), is their "capital".

The tripoint cairn (est. 1846) between Norway, Finland and Russia is a funny one because it's the only place in the world where you can skip one time zone by skipping the Finnish zone (Eastern European UTC+2) and jumping from Norway (Central European UTC+1) to the Russian (Moscow UTC+3) side. Not recommended! It's still an international border. Jump between the fellow Nordic countries Finland and Norway all you like, but an unauthorized border crossing to the Russian side will get you in trouble).

Guess which side is the Russian side...
46290813.jpg
 
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faroukfarouk

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The Pasvik tri-border area of Finland-Norway-Russia has always been a multicultural, multilingual meeting point. East-west, north-south, Lutheran/Orthodox/Sami shamanism. For centuries there was no border as the Sami and their semi-nomadic reindeer knew no borders. It was the zeal to tax the Sami that prompted the establishment of borders.

Fun fact: The (NATO-)Norwegian-Russian bordertown Kirkenes ("Church Headland") is actually located east of Finland and east of Istanbul = the European border with Asia.

Another anecdote: Liinahamari, the ice-free port of then-Finnish Petsamo, is the only Finnish target that Great Britain, an ally of Stalin, did actually bomb during the Second World War. The Brits also bombed neighbouring Kirkenes.

Finnmark (Ruija in Finnish) has a tiny old Finnish minority called the Kvens who speak the Kven language. During the Finnish national awakening in the 19th and early 20th century, the Norwegian government, not unlike the czarist Russia, was worried that the Kvens would be disloyal to Oslo or that Finland would even try to conquer the Norwegian Kvenland part and Oslo, as so many governments around the world tend to do, used this imagined Finnish threat to oppress and discriminate against the Kvens and the "landless" Sami, ban the use of Kven language etc. as part of the Norwegianization campaign.

The Russian Kola peninsula, meanwhile, also had a tiny old Finnish minority, the Muurman/Murmansk Finns or Turja Finns (Ruija and Turja are both old semi-mythical Finnish names for the far north, ultima thule) as well as a Norwegian minority, the Kola Norwegians, who kept alive the pidgin Russenorsk, Russo-Norwegian trade language of the Pomors, the seafaring coastal Arctic people of Northern Norway and Russia ("a person who lived near sea"). Norse sagas refer to Bjarmia or Bjarmaland.

Turjan Sami, Ter Sami of the Kola peninsula, is one of the many Sami dialects. The Skolt Sami have a distinct culture because they are Eastern Orthodox rather than Laestadian/Lutheran. When Finland had to cede Petsamo to the Soviet Union, the Skolts lost their homes as they, too, had to relocate on the Finnish side of the border. Today, Inari, the largest and most sparsely populated municipality in Finland, with four official languages (Finnish, Inari Sami, Skolt Sami and Northern Sami), is their "capital".

The tripoint cairn (est. 1846) between Norway, Finland and Russia is a funny one because it's the only place in the world where you can skip one time zone by skipping the Finnish zone (Eastern European UTC+2) and jumping from Norway (Central European UTC+1) to the Russian (Moscow UTC+3) side. Not recommended! It's still an international border. Jump between the fellow Nordic countries Finland and Norway all you like, but an unauthorized border crossing to the Russian side will get you in trouble).

Guess which side is the Russian side...
46290813.jpg
Very interesting information about Norway/Finland/Russia! It's a bit like where the borders of The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany meet in the middle of a forest and it's rather strange to think of the different languages and jurisdictions which prevail among all the surrounding trees.

So Pohjola: didn't Sibelius write a piece of music about someone by that name?
 
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tansy

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This is absolutely fascinating...I really knew nothing at all about Norway, Finland etc...I hadn't realised there were different languages and sets of people there either. Well, I suppose it's a little like Gaelic and the Scots language, also Cornish...there are still some Cornish speakers. Also Welsh of course, not to mention Irish Gaelic, plus another Irish language I believe.
And English of course is a mixture of many different languages intermingled over the centuries.
 
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PaaKne

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Nice and interesting article, Kalevalatar, but a few corrections seems to be needed.

The information in your link "Norwegianization" from Wikipedia states: "As late as the 1950s, Sami people were widely regarded as mentally handicapped, thus justifying paternalist laws and policy: 'In the folk consensus from 1950, Samis were classified in the same category as the “mentally disabled” and “insane”" and a link to a source here is given. Unfortunately, the link does NOT express what the quoted from Wikipedia explains - at least not the Norwegian and original link, I haven't check the translated English text. The link refer to another link (from 1952) stating that the Sami People is at a low level (when talking about material well-being! It's also a matter of fact that the school law of 1959 stated that education should be in the Sami language where a majority of parents woted for that. The Norwegian bishop of the North (Tromsø), Johannes N Skaar (Johannes Skaar - Wikipedia) and some other further prepared establishing of Norsk samemisjon (The Norwegian Sami Mission) February 1888, and the three main reasons for the Misson was: 1) Spread the word of God to the Sames living in very rural areas), 2) get the Bible translated to Sami and 3) work against Norwegianization in the North of Norway . The organizaton still exist (Norges Samemisjon: Hovedside, Norwegian only) Thus this Norwegianization period was mainly about 1861-1939. For sure it was not discontinued in the 1980s as Wikipedia states, as Norsk Sameråd (the Norwegian Same Council) was established in 1964.

Further, Norway has never had any general ban of using kvensk (=the kven language), but the language was banned in schools inside Norwegian border and for use when having contact with the Government, as the Government of Norway only accepted the two kinds of written Norwegian for this use up to about World War II. The "grown sale/rental law for (the district of Finnmark" was also clear 1902- 1933: No sale/rental of ground for a person not able to alsom use one of the two varieies of written Norwgian. Kvensk - often considered a sub-dialect of (Torneaa)-Finnish - can still not be used for contact with government exept the local government in the district Porsanger.

The tripoint cairn is not the only place in the world where you can skip one time zone - you can do exactly the same at https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/a0140460a8d04e4ba9c4af449b5fa06d/NO//HFIG/fig7-3.gif, the border post Norway-Russia. (This is btw only Norwegian border post closed for all traffic 12 hours/day, with no passing on foot and with barriers opened for for each car - http://dbstatic.no/65394841.jpg?imageId=65394841&width=1024&height=615. Other Norwegian border post are like http://www.natureadventuresport.com/norwaysouthtonorth/thirdpart/etappefire_filer/d02-02.JPG and http://cdn07.dayviews.com/69/_u3/_u4/_u6/_u7/_u4/u346742/76355_1252252114.jpg, - note the change from yellow to white line in the middle of the road exactly on border!)

An unautorized border crossing at the tripoint cairn for sure will get you into trouble twice - first when leaving for Russia, then when returning for Norwegian/Finland. Remember, this is also the Schengen boarder, despite being in thick and deep forests with very few inhabitants!

And faraoukfarouk: Sibelius' music is called "Pohjola's Daugher", a Syphonic Fantasy. Väinämöinen (known from the national epos of Finland, Kalevala) is here seeing the daughter of Pohjola (the moon-god) upon the rainbow and falling in love with her.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Nice and interesting article, Kalevalatar, but a few corrections seems to be needed.

The information in your link "Norwegianization" from Wikipedia states: "As late as the 1950s, Sami people were widely regarded as mentally handicapped, thus justifying paternalist laws and policy: 'In the folk consensus from 1950, Samis were classified in the same category as the “mentally disabled” and “insane”" and a link to a source here is given. Unfortunately, the link does NOT express what the quoted from Wikipedia explains - at least not the Norwegian and original link, I haven't check the translated English text. The link refer to another link (from 1952) stating that the Sami People is at a low level (when talking about material well-being! It's also a matter of fact that the school law of 1959 stated that education should be in the Sami language where a majority of parents woted for that. The Norwegian bishop of the North (Tromsø), Johannes N Skaar (Johannes Skaar - Wikipedia) and some other further prepared establishing of Norsk samemisjon (The Norwegian Sami Mission) February 1888, and the three main reasons for the Misson was: 1) Spread the word of God to the Sames living in very rural areas), 2) get the Bible translated to Sami and 3) work against Norwegianization in the North of Norway . The organizaton still exist (Norges Samemisjon: Hovedside, Norwegian only) Thus this Norwegianization period was mainly about 1861-1939. For sure it was not discontinued in the 1980s as Wikipedia states, as Norsk Sameråd (the Norwegian Same Council) was established in 1964.

Further, Norway has never had any general ban of using kvensk (=the kven language), but the language was banned in schools inside Norwegian border and for use when having contact with the Government, as the Government of Norway only accepted the two kinds of written Norwegian for this use up to about World War II. The "grown sale/rental law for (the district of Finnmark" was also clear 1902- 1933: No sale/rental of ground for a person not able to alsom use one of the two varieies of written Norwgian. Kvensk - often considered a sub-dialect of (Torneaa)-Finnish - can still not be used for contact with government exept the local government in the district Porsanger.

The tripoint cairn is not the only place in the world where you can skip one time zone - you can do exactly the same at https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/a0140460a8d04e4ba9c4af449b5fa06d/NO//HFIG/fig7-3.gif, the border post Norway-Russia. (This is btw only Norwegian border post closed for all traffic 12 hours/day, with no passing on foot and with barriers opened for for each car - http://dbstatic.no/65394841.jpg?imageId=65394841&width=1024&height=615. Other Norwegian border post are like http://www.natureadventuresport.com/norwaysouthtonorth/thirdpart/etappefire_filer/d02-02.JPG and http://cdn07.dayviews.com/69/_u3/_u4/_u6/_u7/_u4/u346742/76355_1252252114.jpg, - note the change from yellow to white line in the middle of the road exactly on border!)

An unautorized border crossing at the tripoint cairn for sure will get you into trouble twice - first when leaving for Russia, then when returning for Norwegian/Finland. Remember, this is also the Schengen boarder, despite being in thick and deep forests with very few inhabitants!

And faraoukfarouk: Sibelius' music is called "Pohjola's Daugher", a Syphonic Fantasy. Väinämöinen (known from the national epos of Finland, Kalevala) is here seeing the daughter of Pohjola (the moon-god) upon the rainbow and falling in love with her.
Yes, I thought so about Pohjola! I have heard this piece of music by Sibelius! :)
 
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So Pohjola: didn't Sibelius write a piece of music about someone by that name?

Pohjola refers to the place, "the Northland" or "North Farm" in Kalevala as opposed to Kalevala-land, the home of the heroes and enemy of Pohjola. Thus, Pohjola indeed means northern Finland/Lapland or simply a mythical Ultima Thule. The eponymous Daughter of Pohjola is the daughter of the mistress of Pohjola, Louhi the "gap-toothed hag." A powerful witch but no moon-god.

"Pohjola" is also somewhat poetic name for the Nordic countries (Pohjoismaat) and often used together with "wild" as in "Villi Pohjola," the Wild North, not unlike the Wild West.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Pohjola refers to the place, "the Northland" or "North Farm" in Kalevala as opposed to Kalevala-land, the home of the heroes and enemy of Pohjola. Thus, Pohjola indeed means northern Finland/Lapland or simply a mythical Ultima Thule. The eponymous Daughter of Pohjola is the daughter of the mistress of Pohjola, Louhi the "gap-toothed hag." A powerful witch but no moon-god.

"Pohjola" is also somewhat poetic name for the Nordic countries (Pohjoismaat) and often used together with "wild" as in "Villi Pohjola," the Wild North, not unlike the Wild West.
Fascinating! :)

In Canada we speak of 'The True North, Strong and Free'. :)
 
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Fascinating! :)

In Canada we speak of 'The True North, Strong and Free'. :)

"True," "strong" and "free" are attributes that Arctic nations ascribe to their far north parts particularly and something that we share. :) You know, that mythical "authentic" place where people go to "find themselves" and where men and women are "more men" and "more women" than in the more populated south.

The Finnish Lapland, too, had Klondike-style gold rushes, for example: 1870's Ivalo River, 1934 Tankavaara and perhaps the most legendary 1945 Lemmenjoki. A Norwegian geologist working on the Norwegian side of the border in Finnmark made the initial discovery, but luckily for the Russian Czar and the Finns, the real motherloads were on the Finnish side.
 
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faroukfarouk

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"True," "strong" and "free" are attributes that Arctic nations ascribe to their far north parts particularly and something that we share. :) You know, that mythical "authentic" place where people go to "find themselves" and where men and women are "more men" and "more women" than in the more populated south.

The Finnish Lapland, too, had Klondike-style gold rushes, for example: 1870's Ivalo River, 1934 Tankavaara and perhaps the most legendary 1945 Lemmenjoki. A Norwegian geologist working on the Norwegian side of the border in Finnmark made the initial discovery, but luckily for the Russian Czar and the Finns, the real motherloads were on the Finnish side.
Very interesting!

The terrain in central and southern Finland is somewhat different from northern Finland and Lappland, right?
 
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The Swan of Tuonela was one of Sibelius's compositions! :)

Yup. Basically, everything you need to know about the Finnish national epic tome Kalevala, you can learn just by listening to Jean Sibelius -- and Finnish heavy metal bands! :cool:
 
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faroukfarouk

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Yup. Basically, everything you need to know about the Finnish national epic tome Kalevala, you can learn just by listening to Jean Sibelius -- and Finnish heavy metal bands! :cool:
Finnish heavy metal? that's a thought! :)
 
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Finnish heavy metal? that's a thought! :)

Finnish answer to Norwegian Viking metal:
Forging Metal: The Kalevala in the Finnish Heavy Metal Performance by Kimi Kärki
Kalevalaic Finnish heavy metal achieved unique international visibility both at the end and in the beginning of the millennium. Heavy metal is the popular music category in which mythologies play a particularly important role and the Kalevala was perfectly suited for this context. A number of bands have combined heavy metal music and the Kalevala. This is based on a broader interest in the mythologies and national projects of different countries which emerged in metal music circles in the early 1990s.
 
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