Non-Violence as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you have invested interest in guns already. So it would be harder for you to accept what the Scriptures are saying on this matter.


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actually impossible, as Jesus told the disciples.

but what is impossible for men, is possible for God.

 

[Hank77]

The gospel is a way of life. It is a part of us. We are to live and breath the gospel. So non-violence is a part of that. Also, nowhere will you find any verse or passage in the New Testament that commands God's people to use violence as a part of self defense. Nowhere do we even see Jesus or His followers take up swords to fight in self defense.


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Nowhere in the NT does it say we should not. Except if one is being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel or His Kingdom. This is what we see Jesus and the apostles do.

You are arguing from a place of silence in the NT. If it isn't addressed in the NT we should turn to the OT.

 

[Hank77]

So you have invested interest in guns already. So it would be harder for you to accept what the Scriptures are saying on this matter.


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You are presumptuous, brother. My guns have fed my family for many years. It is wise to carry a handgun as well when one is hunting where there are bears and lions.
But I do believe that if someone were to threaten me or someone else with bodily harm and using a gun was the only way to stop them, I would be justified in doing so.

 

[Hank77]

I already have provided verses in my original post that shows that we are not to act violently in self defense.

Those scriptures do not support your argument.

The Old Testament or Old Covenant is no longer in effect. We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. This is evident by the fact that believers today do not offer animal sacrifices anymore to a priest.

This is not about which Covenant we are under. This is about morals and ethical behavior. Good morals and ethics are found in both Covenants.

 

[dogs4thewin]

One should never physically harm someone if they have not been threatened with bodily harm by that person. Someone climbing through your window does not mean that they are there to physically harm you or anyone else.

I know, but IF bodily harm is stated or REASONABLLY feared it should not matter who the person is.

 

[dogs4thewin]

So again, is the child at fault?


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Again, if the person REASONABLY fears for his or her safety it should not matter who it is. As usually the children are not themselves just walking in normally.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Live by the sword...this means to practice violence, that is to make violence a part of your life.

Jesus didn't want his followers to use violence as a way of defending the Gospel or the Kingdom.

like using violence first thing, for example when you do not get your way.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Also, who are gun owners here and believe they can be used in self defense?


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common sense gun owners who believe in their right to be safe (particularly in their own home).

 

[dogs4thewin]

You are presumptuous, brother. My guns have fed my family for many years. It is wise to carry a handgun as well when one is hunting where there are bears and lions.
But I do believe that if someone were to threaten me or someone else with bodily harm and using a gun was the only way to stop them, I would be justified in doing so.

Even if you faced charges you could probably get off on self-defense though some states that is harder than others either because one had the duty to retreat OR in some cases you have to prove it was self-defense do so and it is a complete defense, but it is on you to prove that your actions were in fact in self-defense. As opposed to the state having to prove that it was not excusable self-defense.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Does this rejection of self defense extend to the police use of force to protect you?

I wonder that same thing about people who do not believe in practicing self-defense, at all.

 

[Hank77]

Even if you faced charges you could probably get off on self-defense though some states that is harder than others either because one had the duty to retreat OR in some cases you have to prove it was self-defense do so and it is a complete defense, but it is on you to prove that your actions were in fact in self-defense. As opposed to the state having to prove that it was not excusable self-defense.

I really not concerned about the laws of man here. My participation is strictly about the moral and ethical view point.
I would never shoot someone because they were entering my home unlawfully. I'm just not going to do it. But if they are intent on doing harm to my person or my family then they had better be believing me when I warn them of my intentions. If they are armed they don't get a warning, I would have to assume that they are also dangerous.
It would be horrible to take a life under any circumstances and a burden I would never want to bear.

EDIT: They might get a warning depending on the weapon they have and where that weapon is on their person.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I really not concerned about the laws of man here. My participation is strictly about the moral and ethical view point.
I would never shoot someone because they were entering my home unlawfully. I'm just not going to do it. But if they are intent on doing harm to my person or my family then they had better be believing me when I warn them of my intentions. If they are armed they don't get a warning, I would have to assume that they are also dangerous.
It would be horrible to take a life under any circumstances and burden I would never want to bear.
EDIT: They might get a warning depending on the weapon they have and where that weapon is on their person.

but my point was the fact is in this fallen world you still may face charges and have to defend yourself aganist incarceration if (in fact it was believed that you did not act in self defense.

 

[Hank77]

but my point was the fact is in this fallen world you still may face charges and have to defend yourself aganist incarceration if (in fact it was believed that you did not act in self defense.

I'm not interested in discussing the legalities of man's law in this thread.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I'm not interested in discussing the legalities of man's law in this thread.

OK I am just REALLY into the law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does this rejection of self defense extend to the police use of force to protect you?

Romans 13 talks about how the government are God's ministers of justice. While God can use ungodly nations or governments to execute his judgment, that does not mean God wants His people to do the same under the New Covenant. So yes. I am justified by calling the cops to protect my family. Because the cops are not like a hit squad. They do not shoot first and ask questions later. They are God's unbelieving ministers of justice. In other words, it would sort of be like praying to God so as to send an angel to protect you without you having to act violently yourself.

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[Bible Highlighter]

It's unacceptable for me to use arms to defend my self but acceptable for a third party to take the same action?



Yet they would have to use force. If the only acceptable option is pacifism is having others do the dirty work for you acceptable?

Everyone has different roles and parts to play. God says vengeance is His.

"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” (Romans 12:19).

"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21).

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[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see how that's an answer. Shouldn't the officers just pray and have faith?

I believe some professions or jobs are in conflict with a person who wants to truly dedicate themselves to the Lord in all they do.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Why is it acceptable to call others and have them do your dirty work?

There are many things that God and others do that we would prefer not doing or cannot do. Surely we cannot carry out justice better than God? Do we all kill our own meat and grow our own vegetables? Do we all build our own cars and do the hard work necessary to get gas and oil for our cars? Can we hold the building blocks of life together like God? Are we all soldiers or all artists or all politicians?

As I said before, everyone has their role or part to play. God's part is something that nobody can do but Himself. For He is God and He can do amazing and wonderous things that man cannot.


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[Hank77]

Because the cops are not like a hit squad. They do not shoot first and ask questions later. They are God's unbelieving ministers of justice.

I believe some professions or jobs are in conflict with a person who wants to truly dedicate themselves to the Lord in all they do.


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Does this mean that you don't believe any police officers are believers?

 

[Desk trauma]

There are many things that God and others do that we would prefer not doing or cannot do.

You're saying we are not to use force to defend our selves as the only acceptable action is pacifism yet you want others to shrug that off and use violence. Why should the cops not just have faith, pray and demand violent criminals stop in Jesus name rather then endanger their closeness to your deity by not being pacifists?