Nonbiblical Historical/Archeological Evidence for Biblical People?

lucaspa

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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
Is there any historical archeological evidence for major biblical figures like Solomon, Moses, the Old Testament Figures, the Hebrew slaves of Egypt, Joseph, King David?

Yes. A detail of the Hebrews as slaves is given below.

For some of the others, like King David, see Science Volume 289, Number 5482, Issue of 18 Aug 2000, pp. 1145-1146.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/289/5482/1145

I have gone to the library and found the book that mentions the Hebrews in Egypt. It is The Bible as History by Werner Keller, George J. McLeod, Ltd, Toronto, 1956. I am going to present the information without endorsement. I simply do not have the expertise to critically evaluate some of the information. I will say that Keller seems to look for natural explanations and does draw conclusions from the data. He does not mention creation at all. He talks of the Flood based on flood deposits in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, thus talking only about a local flood. (Actually, he seems to think a tidal wave came up the valley from the Persian Gulf) He compares the Noah accounts to the epic of Gilgamesh and the activity of Utnapishtim, a Sumerian "Noah" and wonders why no one has looked at Mt. Nisir where Utnapishtim is supposed to have ended up. I was particularly impressed with Keller's discussion of the "manna" from heaven, correlating it with an exudate of the tamarisk trees that still happens. Where he has no data, i.e., the plague of firstborns in Egypt, Keller readily admits he doesn't know.

I will be quoting a lot, but not because I am trying to overwhelm you with authority. Rather, I view this as raw data. I know it is a secondary source, but, as I said, I am not qualified to evaluate the primary sources. So the quotes are a way of letting you examine the data for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.

Keller begins with a story on the Orbiney Papyrus that tells a tale very similar to the beginnings of the Joseph story: the wife of his brother falsely accuses the man of rape.

"Might this story of an adulteress in the heart of an Egyptian tale be the prototype of the Biblical story of Joseph? Scholars argued the pros and cons based on the text of the Orbiney Papyrus long after the turn of the century. On the debit side, there was not the slightest trace of Israel's sojourn in Egypt apart from the Bible itself. Historians and professors of theology alike spoke of the "Legend of Joseph". ...
"No country in the ancient East has handed down its history as faithfully as Egypt. Right back to about 3000 BC we can trace the names of the pharaohs practically without a break. ... No other people have recorded so meticulously their important events, the activities of their rulers, their campaigns, the erection of temples and palaces, as well as their literature and poetry.
"But this time Egypt gave the scholars no answer. As if it were not enough that they found nothing about Joseph, they discovered neither documents nor monuments out of this whole period. the records which showed hardly a break for centuries suddenly stopped about 1730 BC. From then on for a long time an impenetrable darkness lay over Egypt. Not before 1580 BC did contemporary evidence appear once again. "

What happened was the invasion of the Hyksos. They swept over Egypt like a storm. Their success seems to be due to their new wonder-weapon: the chariot. The chariot was like the tank of the time, it simply ran over the infantry. The Hyksos were Semitic tribes from Canaan and Syria. Hyksos itself means "rulers of foreign lands" according to Keller. Back to Keller.

"The memory of this political disaster remained alive among the Nile people, as a striking description by the Egyptian historian Manetho testified: 'We had a king called Tutmaeus. In his reign it happened. I do not know why God was displeased with us. Unexpectedly from the regions of the East, came men of unknown race. Confident of victory they marched against our land. By force they took it, easily, without a single battle. Having overpowered our rulers, they burned our cities without compassion, and destroyed the temples of the gods. All the natives were treated with great cruelty, for they slew some and carried off the wives and children of others into slavery. Finally they appointed one of themselves as king. His name was Salitis and he lived in Memphis and made Upper and Lower Egypt pay tribute to him, ... and when he found a city in the province of Sais which suited his purpose, it lay east of the Bastite branch of the Nile and was called Avaris, he rebuilt it and made it very strong by erecting walls and installing a force of 240,000 men to hold it. ...'

"Avaris is a town that under another name plays an important role in Biblical history. Later called Pi-Ramses, it is one of the bond cities of ancient Egypt (Ex. 1:11)"
"The Biblical story of Joseph and the sojourn of the children of Israel in Egypt belong to this period of turbulent conditions on the Nile under the rule of the foreign Hyksos. It is therefore not surprising that no contemporary Egyptian information has come down to us. Nevertheless, there is indirect proof of the authenticity of the Joseph story. ..."
"Potiphar was the name of the Egyptian to whom Joseph was sold. It is a thoroughly characteristic native name. In Egyptian it is 'Pa-di-pa-ra,' 'the gift of the god Ra.' Joseph's elevation to viceroy of Egypt was reproduced in the Bible exactly according to protocol. He is invested with the insignia of his high office, he receives the ring, Pharaoh's seal, a costly linen vestment, and a golden chain (Gen. 41:42) This is exactly how Egyptian artists depict this solemn ceremony on murals and reliefs." And here Keller has Fig. 14, a reproduction of a mural showing the installation of an Egyptian vizier. It matches the text.

"As viceroy, Joseph rode in the Pharaoh's "second chariot" (Gen. 41:43). That implies the time of the Hyksos. These "rulers of foreign lands" were the first to bring the swift war chariot to Egypt. We know too that the Hyksos rulers were the first to use a ceremonial chariot on public occasions in Egypt. Before their day this had not been the practice on the Nile."

Keller then discusses a canal which brings water to the town of Medinet-el-Faiyum, which lies 80 miles south of Cairo. The 200 mile canal brings water to this desert community and allows extensive agriculture. The canal is ancient, and is known as "Bahr Yusuf" -"Joseph's Canal" throughout Egypt. "People say that it was the Joseph of the Bible who planned it."

Now comes the migration of Joseph's relatives to Egypt.
"Years of drought, bad harvests, and famine are well attested in the lands of the Nile. In very early times, for example, at the beginning of the third millennium, there is said to have been a seven-year famine according to a rock inscription of the Ptolemies. ...Traces have been found of the granaries which existed even in the Old Kingdom. In many tombs there were little clay models of them. Apparently they were making provision for possible years of famine among the dead."

"The viceroy brought his father, brothers, and other relatives into the country: [quote from Gen.46:27-28]. The viceroy had obtained permission from the highest authority for his family to cross the frontier, and what the Bible records corresponds perfectly with the administrative procedure of the government. [quote from Gen.47:5-6 saying they can live in Goshen].
"A frontier official wrote to his superiors on papyrus: 'I have another matter to bring to the attention of my lord and it is this: We have permitted the transit of Bedouin tribes from Edom via Menephta fort in Zeku, to the fen-lands of the city of Per-Atum ... so that they may preserve their own lives and the lives of their flocks on the estate of the king, the good Sun of every land ...'
"Per-Atum, which crops up here in a hieroglyphic text, is the Biblical Pithom in the land of Goshen, later one of the bond cities of Israel in Egypt.

Keller then notes the description of the death and embalming of Joseph, which would have been unknown in Canaan. The description matches (according to Keller) with the description of Herodotus about the practice.

"Under the Pharaohs a sand-dweller could never have become viceroy. Nomads bred asses, sheep, and goats, and the Egyptians despised none so much as breeders of small cattle. Only under the foreign overlords, the Hyksos, would an Asiatic have the chance to rise to the highest office in the state. Under the Hyksos we repeatedly find officials with Semitic names. On scarabs dating from the Hyksos period the name 'Jacob-Her' has been clearly deciphered." At this point I would remind ourselves that the Hyksos were Semitic, so giving favors to other Semites does not seem impossible.

"For a space of four hundred years, during which, politically, the face of the Fertile Crescent was completely altered, the Bible is silent."

Keller recounts the revolt against the Hyksos and their eventual expulsion. The Egyptians then conquered Canaan, to prevent a repeat of the Hyksos invasion. They sparred with the Mitanni at the head of the Tigris-Euphrates and then encountered the Hittites coming down from what is now Turkey. They skirmished for over 100 years. Then Ramses II fought a battle in 1280 BC with the Hittites. He didn't win, but apparently didn't lose either. Anyway the Hittites and Egyptians concluded what Keller calls "the first nonaggression and mutual defense pact in world history." Ramses also got a Hittite princess for a bride.

Keller thinks the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Ramses II. He points out that the Hebrews would be despised because they were Asiatics and sand ramblers. Also, they were of the same race as the hated Hyksos.

"What forced labor meant in ancient Egypt and what the children of Israel experienced at the great building projects on the Nile can be gathered from a very old painting from the patriarchal period at Beni-Hasan that Percy A. Newberry found in a rock tomb west of the royal city of Thebes.
"On the walls of a spacious vault there is a series of paintings from the life of a great dignitary, the vizier Rekhmire, showing what he had done for the benefit of his country. One scene shows him in charge of public works. The detail shows the manufacture of Egyptian bricks, the most notable feature being the light-skinned workmen, who are clad only in linen aprons. A comparison with the dark-skinned overseers shows that the fair-skinned men are probably Semites, but certainly not Egyptians. 'He provides us with bread, beer, and every good thing.' Yet, despite these words of praise about the quality of the diet, there is no doubt about the fact that they are not working voluntarily but compulsorily. 'The rod is in my hand,' one of the Egyptian overseers is saying, according to the hieroglyphic inscription. 'Be not idle.'" Fig. 18 is a reproduction of the painting and does indeed show light skinned workers and black overseers.

"The painting in the rock tomb shows a scene from the building of the Temple of Amun in Thebes. The classical bond cities of the children of Israel were, however, Pithom and Raamses. Both names appear in slightly different form in Egyptian inventories. 'Pi-Tum' -'House of the god Tum' - is a town which was built by Ramses II. Pi-Ramses-Meri-Amun, which has already been mentioned, is the Biblical Raamses. An inscription of the time of Ramses II speaks of "'PR", who hauled the stones for the great fortress of the city of Pi-Ramses-Meri-Amun" 'PR is Egyptian hieroglyphics for Semites."

Keller goes on the describe the finding of both cities and the excavations done there. However, if Keller is accurate, we have both pictorial and written data that Semites were in Egypt and were involved in the extensive building program of Ramses II. One other point. Moses is a typical Egyptian name. "Moses is the name Maose which is commonly found on the Nile. The Egyptian word 'MS' means simply 'boy-son'. A number of Pharaohs are called Ahmose, Amasis, Thutmose."
 
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LorentzHA said:
I just posted something similar in another thread...Let's say they did have proof positive that this body was James brother of Jesus..BIG DEAL, so they lived and walked the Earth...that in no way validates a heaven or hell. It would not be proof of ANYTHING if they found ALL of the people in the Bible had lived. Someone said it would, "validate the Bible"?? HUH? It would validate that they did not make up names of people, but it certainly would not validate a heaven, hell, afterlife, soul, etc....(sigh)

Actually, it is a fairly big deal in terms of Catholic theology and the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I won't go into the doctrine or argue either side at any length but the crux of the argument, in case your unfamiliar or Protestant, can be found in Luke 1:34 and Isiah 7:14 and has to do with whether Mary was a virgin at the time of birthing Jesus (and remained so afterwards). Protestants generally disagree and say the word "parthenos" in Luke is mistranslated.
 
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Philip2uk

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There are a number of archaeological artefacts evidencing many Kings and individuals in the Bible. These tend to be from the Iron Age on. Pre-Iron Age evidence consists mainly of examples supporting the description of life given in the Bible, rather than specifically mentioning historical Biblical characters.

It is a pity that the evidence, often quoted for Semitic Slaves "hauling stones" in Egypt from Keller's, "The Bible As History", is unreferenced. This is too often the case in many Christian books.

I would be very interested if anyone could provide a proper reference for the inscriptions Keller quotes from ~ "PR" "who hauled the stones for the great fortress of the city of Pi-Ramses-Meri-Amum".
 
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salida

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AV1611VET

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Agonaces of Susa

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Is there any historical archeological evidence for major biblical figures like Solomon, Moses, the Old Testament Figures, the Hebrew slaves of Egypt, Joseph, King David?
Bible History & Archaeology Published by the Biblical Archaeology Society | Biblical Archaeology Review

It is well known that the Bible is a historical text, the history of the Jewish people.

However, atheists and antisemites deny the existence of Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes because the Bible was written by Jews and therefore is a fairy tale myth and not a historical text.

Atheist fundies even deny the existence of meteorites becuse they are in the Bible.

"Stones cannot fall from the sky because there are no stones in the sky!" -- Antoine L. Lavoisier, chemist, 1790

"Gentlemen, I would rather believe that two Yankee professors would lie than believe that stones fall from heaven." -- Thomas Jefferson, revolutionary, 1807
 
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ReverendDG

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(non biblical sources proving bible)
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Proof_of_Yahshua.htm
http://www.jonsplace.org/rel/bible.htm
so.. you post three links to the same "evidence"?
none of them "prove the bible" they prove at most beliefs of the people who were around that the time.
most are sources about christians, not the bible, no one doubts christians existed in 150 ad.
Archeology Proves Bible History Accurate
Archeology Proves Bible History Accurate
http://s8int.com/page34.html
s8int.com is such a poor source it isn't even funny, the ignorance and factually wrong information it houses is downright insulting.

the site claims that the hittites they found are the ones from the bible, that isn't really true, they not the hittites from the bible, they are only called that because archeologists thought they might be or hoped so.
it is so common to name things after what you hope they are, that this makes it a lie.
why do we still call native americans, indians? they aren't indians! but people thought they were!

funny that they don't list stuff that refutes the claims in the bible, like the merneptah stele that places the israelites at after 12 century bce, that talks about egypt basically destroying the israelites. or the amarna letters which show that up to around the 12 century that there was no israelites coming to destroy anyone.
or the fact that ai didn't exist in either the 15th century bce or the 12th, or jericho, existing in the 15th, or goshen existing untill the 5th century bce.

how does one conquer cites abandoned over several thousand years?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Additionally, there is absolutely zero archeological evidence that one million Israelites wandered and lived in the desert for forty years.
You mean like absolutely zero archaeological evidence that one million Jews were slaughtered in Nazi Germany?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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You mean like absolutely zero archaeological evidence that one million Jews were slaughtered in Nazi Germany?
The evidence is overwhelming that approximately six million Jews, Christians and Catholics and Muslims were victims of genocide during WWII.
 
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SaraCurious

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Is there any historical archeological evidence for major biblical figures like Solomon, Moses, the Old Testament Figures, the Hebrew slaves of Egypt, Joseph, King David?

Just as we have major historical names in fictional books and movies, we got in the Bible, of course this obviously does not make the Bible "true" as then Independence Day is true and so forth.

I would rather see the Bible as a guide to our History, current political/cultural areas and a picture of how we worked as a society thousands of years ago. I would be very careful with taking anything literal or true in any normal sense of the word.


I watched a movie called Independence Day not to long ago, it had United States of America in it, the nation I live today, and then Aliens came, so it must be true, as our nation which exist, was in it.... and so on.. Be careful with assertions without basis.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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The evidence is overwhelming that approximately six million Jews, Christians and Catholics and Muslims were euthanized during WWII.
Where do you suppose those Jews came from Mars?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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disgusting.They weren't "euthanized". They were murdered.
I agree Driewerf.

The same people who deny the Holocaust also deny the Exodus.

"... judging from the account of the Exodus of the Jews, which they have written themselves, we cannot credit it. The narrative is full of contradictions, and is so absurd and incredible, and even impossible, that we must regard it as a huge myth. There may have been an Exodus from Egypt, of which this account is an exaggeration, but it bears so many evidences of the fabulous that we cast it aside and are led to doubt whether the Jews were ever in Egypt except as tramps and vagabonds ...." -- Richard B. Westbrook, scientist, 1892

"The Jews have no history -- or what may be termed real history ...." -- Jonathan M. Roberts, scientist, 1894

"Jews have no history, the Bible is nothing else than an account of fables." -- Moise Rahmani, revisionist historian, April 2004
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is what you might think.
But I think agon is probably right.

All people that deny the holocaust deny exodus.
But not all people that deny exodus deny the holocaust.

Course sweeping generalizations are bound to be wrong somewhere.
 
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