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Nonbiblical Historical/Archeological Evidence for Biblical People?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by ReUsAbLePhEoNiX, Aug 27, 2003.

  1. ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

    ReUsAbLePhEoNiX Liberated from SinComplex

    +71
    Taoist
    Is there any historical archeological evidence for major biblical figures like Solomon, Moses, the Old Testament Figures, the Hebrew slaves of Egypt, Joseph, King David?
     
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  2. jonah

    jonah Member

    101
    +2
    Yes, there is plenty if you would take some time and do the research. There are some great books out recently on the subject also.

    King David's conscription on stone is well documented, the recent discovery of a stone box 'urn' has created enormous discussions. There are too many to list. The Biblical historical legitimacy of these characters are considered a moot point in archealogical history. These are directly related to the history of the nation of Isreal. It also affects Islam as they also rely on the legitimacy of Abraham. And various other nations in the Middle East. Maybe a trip to the middle east would rest these questions yourself?
     
  3. ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

    ReUsAbLePhEoNiX Liberated from SinComplex

    +71
    Taoist
    Sure, Let me pack my bags...uh your paying for the ticket right? I have read quite a few recent news stories, claiming the stone box with the inscription, "James, brother of Jesus" is a fake, well the box is not, but the additional inscription is.....they studied the inscription with instruments that can determine the amount of time the inscription surface had been exposed to air and discovered that it was a recent forgery
     
  4. Vance

    Vance Contributor

    +239
    Christian
    Married
    I am not sure where the extra-biblical sources begin to provide corroborating evidence, but there are a couple of points to make here.

    1. The Bible is, itself, an historical record and must be seen as such. I have a degree in history, and spent much of my life at University dealing with historical sources. If it were not for the religious aspects of the stories, it would be seen simply as a collection of historical records of varying degrees of reliability. Since many do not believe the religious aspects, they want to also minimize or dismiss it's historical value. True, from a purely secular viewpoint, you would have to sift through the texts to determine what is pure myth, what is partial myth and what is very probably true history. The fact is that those who accept the religious foundation believe it is all historical, so those who do not believe the religious foundation tend to want to believe it all must be myth.

    2. Although archealogy is not my area, my understanding is that many digs have shown evidence which corresponds to the Biblical record, but I have not heard of any evidence which clearly disproves a Biblical historical account. For example, the evidence shows that the ancient groups described in the Bible did exist at roughly the times and in the locations which are described in the Bible, etc.
     
  5. obediah001

    obediah001 Active Member

    617
    +5
    Archaeology has never been able to prove a single historical event in the Bible to be false. There are many which it has not given support for yet but theturning of the shovel will one day add to the proven accuracy of the Bbile.
     
  6. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +177
    Taoist
    Many things have proven a literal global flood false.

    Just the same, there is quite a bit of Evidence for a possible local flood of the Epic of Gilgemesh.

    Often locations are found, but there isnt much evidence to support specific events or people.
     
  7. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    Archaeology hasn't done much to prove the events of the Bible to be true, either. Plagues, miralcles, global fllods.... God's supposedly been leaving His mark on the planet for a while; you'd think we'd have found something by now...


    What has been proven is that many of the locations mentioned in the Bible were real places. This proves.... absolutely nothing.
    Unless, of course, you want to argue that The Wizard of Oz is historically accurate. After all, Kansas is a real place, and we don't even need archeology to prove that. Another science, meterology, shows that the area is prone to tornadoes....
    Scientists should be finding Oz on the maps any day now. There are a lot of rainbows in Kansas, and according to the Gospel of Dorothy, Oz is somewhere over one of them.
     
  8. Vance

    Vance Contributor

    +239
    Christian
    Married
    Right, Arikay.

    The evidence which is *likely* to exist to corroborate the stories is often found, such as place names, groups and peoples and *their* history which fits well with the Biblical record. What we don't find is what is very *unlikely* that we would find: evidence of particular individuals and specific events. Since most of the individuals and events are only important to the small group writing their narrative history, we would not expect evidence to show up elsewhere. These events, while they seem large to us (and obviously were large to the Hebrews, themselves) were very inconsequential in the larger sense. As someone with an historical background, I would be VERY surprised to find a record of Isaac or the other Patriarchs in another culture's historical record. These other groups only recorded the activites of a very tiny percentage of their OWN people, after all. And when we add in that only a small percentage of the MAJOR events of those cultures were recorded going back to those times, it is not likely that a medium-sized or small event (such as the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt) would make it into text.
     
  9. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    You will not find much evidence in Egypt. They are anti semitic and have eliminated most evidence of Jews ever being in their country. As far as Solomon, the foundation to his temple is still there.

    Before the Romans riped down the temple in 70ad they had all the genologies going back to Adam. But they were destroyed in the fire. Paul talks about the endless contentions over the genologies, so maybe God allowed them to be destroyed.

    Of course there is the DNA. They have a gene marker that they feel they can identify who is a decendant of Aaron and the Levi priests. Because they have keep themselves geneticly pure over the years. In fact the Bible tells us that there will be 12,000 from all 12 tribes that God has kept pure onto Himself, so they have not inner married with the gentiles. So there will be a total of 144,000 that will give a witness and a testimony for God during the tribulation period.

    There is a lot of archeology evidence they have found in the last 100 years. The city of Jerico has been execavated. The Chaldean city of Ur that Abraham was from was occupied up to about 2500 years ago. So the remains of that is still there. The Chaldeans as a people are still alive today, even there are 100,000 of them in the USA. Today they are mostly Catholic.

    The remains of Babylon of course is still there. It has never been rebuilt, even though they have tried to rebuild it over the years. There are still patches of the Cedar Forests of Lebanon where Solomon got the wood to build the temple and his palace. The Cedar forest we are told is second in beauty only to Eden itself.

    In fact a lot of the things in the Bible you can still find. The Garden that Jesus use to love to go to and pray is still there. The burning bush of moses is said to still be alive and is being protected in the center of a monastery. They say there is a place in the desert where the quail are tired from their long flight and drop exhausted out of the sky. Just as the Bible talks about. The area Moses went to pray is a popular place for people who are healthy enough to climb the mountain to visit it.

    There is plenty of physical evidence of events that the Bible talks about.
     
  10. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    They have a lot of tours that you can take where you go to different places the Bible talks about. Even in Armenia and Turkey where you can visit places from the time of Noah.
     
  11. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +177
    Taoist
    John, Is there some sort of handbook you get this from, or is it just pulled out of the air?
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    They also arrested the guy that they believe added the "brother of Jesus" part. They confisated all of his forgery tools. The boxes are pretty common and only sell for about $35. There are thousands of them. Even though it said James son of Joseph, that did not seem to impress people because James and Joseph were common names.
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Do you want a book to read? How about Bruce Feiler's "Walking The Bible"

    http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380807319/ref=ed_xsoc_b_1_3/702-4243313-9080839

    [​IMG]

    http://www.brucefeiler.com/

    Usually what I do is look up different things from the Bible on the Internet, and I can find a lot of information there. Even about archeology on different Bible locations.
     
  14. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Easton's Bible Dictionary is a real good resource for what is currently known about various groups of people that we find in our Bible. There is a free online version at:

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/EastonsBibleDictionary/

    I have some Bible Encyplodia's in the basement with lots of neat photos, I should drag it out of there and go over it with my son. I bet he would enjoy learning a little bit about that stuff.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

    ReUsAbLePhEoNiX Liberated from SinComplex

    +71
    Taoist
    gee I am surprised the New York Times/ Washington Post gave such a positive review, considering they are a member of the Evil Godless Media
     
  16. pudmuddle

    pudmuddle Active Member

    282
    +0
    Christian
    THE BIBLE AND ARCHAEOLOGY


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn14/archaeol.html


    King David's Reign:
    A Nation United
















    "Secular historians once questioned the historicity of King David. However, recent archaeological discoveries confirm the evidence for his existence and reign.

    by Mario Seiglie



    In earlier issues The Good News has examined archaeological discoveries that confirm and help us better understand the biblical accounts in the five books of Moses and Israel's history as recorded in Joshua and Judges. In this issue we focus on the beginning of the Israelite monarchy, the time of King David. The Bible discusses this period in the books of 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles.

    When the period described in the book of Judges ended, a new age arrived with the kings of Israel, an era lasting more than 400 years. (It came to a tragic close with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah both being taken into captivity and exile.)

    The monarchy lacked an auspicious beginning. God eventually rejected Saul, the first king, because of his continual disobedience. David, the son of Jesse, replaced Saul.

    David's reign began the golden age of Israel. This powerful king wisely governed the tribes of Israel, forging them into a unified nation. God blessed this obedient and multitalented man. David was not only a valiant soldier, but a great military strategist, able administrator, diplomat, composer and musician.

    Under David's inspired leadership, Israel soon became powerful, extending its northern frontiers to the River Euphrates and its southern borders to the Red Sea. "And David defeated Hadadezer king of Zobah as far as Hamath, as he went to establish his power by the River Euphrates . . . So David reigned over all Israel, and administered judgment and justice to all his people" (1 Chronicles 18:3, 14).

    After centuries of Israelite struggle against the Canaanites and Philistines, it was David who finally triumphed decisively over Israel's enemies. The ensuing peace freed the Israelites to make full use of the formidable natural resources of the area. This liberty produced great prosperity. From their humble beginning as a slave people, then as pastoral tribes, they ascended to great heights. David transformed Israel into a highly organized state that would later leave a lasting mark on Western civilization.

    "The reign of David," comments one authority, "marks-politically speaking-Israel's golden age. A power vacuum in both Egypt and Mesopotamia made it possible for the tribes that had entered Canaan under Joshua a few centuries earlier to become a mighty nation . . . David was king of an area extending from the Red Sea to the Euphrates" (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1982, Vol. II, p. 915).

    With the flourishing of the material culture of Israel comes enough physical evidence of Israelitish presence to be confirmed by archaeology.

    "The purpose of Biblical archaeology," explains archaeologist Bryant Wood, "is to enhance our comprehension of the Bible, and so its greatest achievement, in my view, has been the extraordinary illumination of . . . the time of the Israelite monarchy, c. 1000-586 B.C.E. . . . [whereas] exploring that prehistory [the premonarchic age] is challenging: It requires tracing the archaeological record of a pastoral community, rather than an agrarian-based political entity [as in David's time] that built cities and made contacts with surrounding nations" (Biblical Archaeology Review, May-June 1995, pp. 33, 35).

    Jerusalem as Israel's new capital

    David was originally headquartered in Hebron, in southern Judah, but now, with all 13 tribes accepting his rulership, he needed a central base from which to govern. An ideal place was on the northern border of Judah, the city of Jebus, also called Jerusalem, but it was in the hands of the Jebusites, a remnant Canaanite tribe that had heavily fortified the city. "And David and all Israel went to Jerusalem, which is Jebus, where the Jebusites were, the inhabitants of the land" (1 Chronicles 11:4).

    A few centuries earlier, Joshua had attempted to conquer the city of Jebus but had failed. "As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day" (Joshua 15:63).

    After Joshua's death the Israelites briefly conquered Jerusalem. "Now the children of Judah fought against Jerusalem and took it; they struck it with the edge of the sword and set the city on fire" (Judges 1:8). Yet the surviving inhabitants soon rebuilt the city. From that moment they successfully resisted Israelite attacks until the time of David. "But the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites who inhabited Jerusalem; so the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day" (Judges 1:21).

    The city was built on a mount in the midst of a large valley in the Judean mountains. It seemed impenetrable. When the Jebusites noticed David and his men were ready to attack them, they mocked their feeble efforts. "And the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who spoke to David, saying, 'You shall not come in here; but the blind and the lame will repel you,' . . ." (2 Samuel 5:6).

    Yet David did not attempt a frontal attack on the fortress. Instead, he found the Achilles' heel of the Jebusite defenses, a hidden water shaft that wound its way up into the city. Such a shaft for transporting water was a common feature of many fortified cities of that time. "As was characteristic of all the great walled cities of Canaan," notes Eugene Merrill, "Jerusalem had a vertical water shaft connecting with a tunnel leading to an underground water supply outside the walls. As necessary as these systems were for the survival of a city under siege, they also constituted a major weakness in that they provided access into the city for anyone who could find the entrance" (Kingdom of Priests, Baker Book House Co., Grand Rapids, 1987, p. 236).

    When David discovered the entrance, he realized it was a way to secretly enter the city and open its gates. "Whoever climbs up by way of the water shaft and defeats the Jebusites," he told his men, "shall be chief and captain" (2 Samuel 5:8).

    In 1 Chronicles 11:6-7 we find who gained the honor: "And Joab the son of Zeruiah went up first, and became chief. Then David dwelt in the stronghold; therefore they called it the City of David."

    More than a century ago Charles Warren, a British officer, found a water shaft in Jerusalem with features similar to those described in the Bible account. Charles Pfeiffer, a professor of ancient literature, explains the significance of the discovery. "The capture of Jerusalem by David is of interest to archaeologists," he wrote, "since he used a strategy which involved the Gihon Spring, on the eastern slope of Mount Zion . . . Joab went up first and was rewarded by becoming commander of David's army . . .

    "This tunnel has been identified with Warren's Shaft. The shaft was dug through the limestone above the Gihon Spring all the way up to the surface, a distance of 24 meters . . . The discovery of a Jebusite wall farther down the slope toward the Gihon Spring increases the possibility that Joab could have secretly entered the city . . . through Warren's Shaft" (The Biblical World: A Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology, 1966, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, p. 373).

    King David's Jerusalem

    After David conquered the Jebusite fortress, it became known as the City of David. As his reign prospered he soon began building to extend the city. "Then David dwelt in the stronghold, and called it the City of David. And David built all around from the Millo and inward. So David went on and became great, and the LORD God of hosts was with him" (2 Samuel 5:9-10).

    The mount on which the Jebusite fortress stood was called Mount Zion. "Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion (that is, the City of David)" (verse 7). Close by, to the north, was a hill called Mount Moriah, which David bought from Ornan the Jebusite.

    "Therefore, the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David that David should go and erect an altar to the LORD on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite . . . So David gave Ornan six hundred shekels of gold by weight for the place. And David built there an altar to the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called on the LORD; and He answered him from heaven by fire on the altar of burnt offering" (1 Chronicles 21:18, 25-26).

    Eventually David moved the tabernacle and the ark of the covenant to this area, and later King Solomon built his magnificent temple on Mount Moriah. "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah, where the LORD had appeared to his father David, at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite" (2 Chronicles 3:1).

    In Solomon's time the Israelites finally completed an earthwork that filled the area between the two mounts, making them one. The whole area was then called Mount Zion and was no more known as Moriah. "With the establishment of the ark first in the Jebusite fortress and then in the newly built temple," according to one source, "Zion became known as the sacred dwelling place of Israel's Lord, the One 'who dwells in Zion' (Ps. 9:11)" (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1982, Vol. 4, p. 1198).

    Eventually Zion would be used not only to denote the temple area, but as a symbol for Jerusalem, its inhabitants and, finally, the people of God.

    Confirmation of David's existence

    Some historians and critics have questioned the existence of King David and have relegated Old Testament accounts about him to the status of mythology. "I am not the only scholar," remarks Philip Davies, "who suspects that the figure of King David is about as historical as King Arthur" (Biblical Archaeology Review, July-August 1994, p. 55). Such professors cast doubt on the reliability of the biblical record and undermine the faith of others. They also rarely acknowledge the many discoveries that have corroborated the biblical account.

    For instance, in 1993 archaeologists discovered the names of David and Israel in an inscription carved in stone only 100 years after David's death. Reports Biblical Archaeology Review: "It's not often that an archaeological find makes the front page of the New York Times (to say nothing of Time magazine). But that is what happened last summer to a discovery at Tel Dan, a beautiful mound in northern Galilee, at the foot of Mount Hermon beside one of the headwaters of the Jordan River.

    "There Avraham Biran and his team of archaeologists found a remarkable inscription from the ninth century B.C.E. that refers both to the 'House of David' and to the 'King of Israel.' This is the first time that the name David has been found in any ancient inscription outside the Bible" (Biblical Archaeological Review, March-April 1994, p. 26). More and more extrabiblical evidence involving Bible names and places is being discovered as the years go by. The skeptics are gradually having to retreat.

    Later another scholar found the name "House of David" in the inscriptions of the famous Moabite Stone, also called the Mesha stela, dated to the ninth century B.C., about 100 years after David's reign. It is hard to understand how David's name could appear in historical records if he were nothing but a later literary creation.

    Anson Rainey, professor of ancient Near Eastern cultures, cautions the unwary about believing that the accounts of David and other biblical characters are but legends. "As someone who studies ancient inscriptions in the original, I have a responsibility to warn the lay audience that the new fad, the 'deconstructionist school,' . . . is merely a circle of dilettantes. Their view that nothing in Biblical tradition is earlier than the Persian period [540-330 B.C.], especially their denial of the existence of a United Monarchy, is a figment of their vain imagination. The name 'House of David' in the Tel Dan and Mesha inscriptions sounds the death knell to their specious conceit. Biblical scholarship and instruction should completely ignore the 'deconstructionist school.' They have nothing to teach us" (Biblical Archaeology Review, November- December 1994, p. 47).

    Although some critics will not admit as much, the accumulating physical evidence confirms rather than denies what is written in God's Word. But, for those who have faith in what God has said in the Bible, it is not necessary to find material remains to corroborate these accounts. The apostle Paul boldly affirms that God "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2)."
     
  17. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +306
    Unitarian
    Dated? You don't suppose it was dated using some awful atheist unworkable radioactive dating method do you?

    The Frumious Bandersnatch
     
  18. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    If Adam and Eve were the first two humans, with no others created, whouldn't we all be Jews with lineages back to Adam? Just a thought.

    It would be a really interesting study, however. There aren't many other cultures that have been as exclusive in marriage as the Jews, at least from my limited knowledge. I know Tay Sachs (sp?) is genetically linked to Jews from Eastern Europe, wonder if there are any other such markers (hopefully less deadly) that are present. Not trying to delve into eugeneics, btw.
     
  19. LorentzHA

    LorentzHA Electric Kool-Aid Girl

    +37
    Other Religion
    I just posted something similar in another thread...Let's say they did have proof positive that this body was James brother of Jesus..BIG DEAL, so they lived and walked the Earth...that in no way validates a heaven or hell. It would not be proof of ANYTHING if they found ALL of the people in the Bible had lived. Someone said it would, "validate the Bible"?? HUH? It would validate that they did not make up names of people, but it certainly would not validate a heaven, hell, afterlife, soul, etc....(sigh)
     
  20. LorentzHA

    LorentzHA Electric Kool-Aid Girl

    +37
    Other Religion
    I like your Idea on the DNA, but we would have to have a original sample from Adam and Eve to confirm this :)

    Well, I am not sure it would make us Jews. Jesus was reported to be a Jew, however, where the story describes the "Garden of Eden" was located: was at the mouth of the Tigres & Euphrates, which presently is, Iraq. The stories were written by Jews but all of the players were not Jews and I am not sure if this would mean that Adam and Eve were Jew or not? ;) If we were actually all descendants of Adam and Eve it would make us Semitic peoples, to be sure, but not necessarily, Jewish. If it is true makes you wonder how some of their "children" became SO dark since creationists tell us there was no Evolution?? ;)
     
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