Non-religious upbringing to Practicing Christians...?

TheFriendlyAtheist

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I have a few more questions. This is aimed at people who didn't grow up Christian or in a religious household. I just want to know what sparked your turn? I don't need you to give me the whole story as I'm sure most of you have posted that elsewhere on the forum. I just want to know the first thing that made you decide to start looking and what the main thing about Christianity that resonated with you?

I grew up in a secular house so when I look at different religions, it is always as an outsider. For me personally I don't see a path that would me to any religion. It would be interesting to hear from those of you who did find that path and did take it.
 

redleghunter

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I have a few more questions. This is aimed at people who didn't grow up Christian or in a religious household. I just want to know what sparked your turn? I don't need you to give me the whole story as I'm sure most of you have posted that elsewhere on the forum. I just want to know the first thing that made you decide to start looking and what the main thing about Christianity that resonated with you?

I grew up in a secular house so when I look at different religions, it is always as an outsider. For me personally I don't see a path that would me to any religion. It would be interesting to hear from those of you who did find that path and did take it.
Maybe not on topic but something free for your kit bag. The attached is a classic by a great theologian and evangelist John Stott.
 

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Silmarien

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I grew up nominally Presbyterian, but I don't remember ever not being completely hostile to it. I refused to be confirmed and was an anti-theist until the end of college. So I was never actually neutral towards religion--I hated it, which meant investment.

I took a seminar on Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov my last semester in college, and basically realized I wasn't an atheist in an epiphany. I still thought Christianity was insane, but I was now on the same side of the fence and my own concept of divinity evolved to the point where I finally had to take religion seriously. It took a decade for me to decide that it was time to start delving seriously into what the Christian mystical tradition had to offer, but I got a bit too close and ended up hopelessly entangled in those fishing nets. Mark 1:17.

What was it about Christianity that resonated with me? The beauty of it, actually. The type of literary works it inspires, the paradoxes, the uncompromising moral standard and the recognition that you'll never make it on your own. It's difficult to come to it as an outsider, especially since part of me still rebels against it out of habit, but it's been a very interesting journey. Lots and lots of scenery along the way.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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This is my Testimonium that I posted here before:

Saved from Atheism

I came from a mildly religious household, but essentially secular. My parents taught me Greek myths more readily than Christian stories. I attribute the beginning of the process that ended my Atheism to CS Lewis. He baptised my imagination in a way, as he said Macdonald had done for him. This led to a series of intense rear-guard actions by my Atheism, with much hard fought ground and trenchlines dug, but a steady diet of Christian writers and discussions in which I tried to see both sides, kept weakening its position. I became a great afficianado of Lewis, but Chesterton, Donne, Arnold, and many others played a part, with a more nuanced investigation of mythology and the Bible as well. This did not make me a Theist though.

For religion requires Faith. At some point a leap has to be made. More than just belief, a Theological Virtue, a Trust. Apologies in advance for the extended metaphor, but Dante explained it best - Human Reason in the form of Virgil, can only take us to a point. Without Beatrice, without Grace, we end at the gates of Paradise to be sucked back into the void. How that happens, if it happens, is probably intensely personal for each of us. It may be a revelatory epiphany or like a thief in the night, but I think humans first need to climb the hill of purgatory before we are able to. At that point, it becomes a stark choice of acceptance or not. I would think God leads each on a path that could potentially reach Him, we just don't know how it would occur. Some from their youth, others on their deathbed. Some through good fortune, others through suffering. My own conversion would appear completely impossible, nonsensical and silly to my former self; there is a truth to the notion of Born Again, of Regeneration. It is a profound change, often quite unexpected.
I don't really think Christianity resonated with me, I rejected it. There are other religious traditions I would've liked far more readily. Christianity established itself like a conquering army that gradually won ground and began reshaping the countryside in its wake. It was somewhat against my will. Today though, I find the mythological foreshadowing in other traditions, the clear Virtue ethic, the world as being corrupted Good, and mostly the sheer implications of the Crucifixion as sacrifice, compelling; but as I said, my atheist self would not have.
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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Sorry I took so long to reply.
I grew up nominally Presbyterian, but I don't remember ever not being completely hostile to it. I refused to be confirmed and was an anti-theist until the end of college. So I was never actually neutral towards religion--I hated it, which meant investment

I took a seminar on Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov my last semester in college, and basically realized I wasn't an atheist in an epiphany.
This is interesting. Are you saying that you realized that you believed in God but just didn't like the idea at that point? Or did you at one point not believe in God and was convinced otherwise?

but a steady diet of Christian writers and discussions in which I tried to see both sides, kept weakening its position.
An interesting thing is, I'm actually getting pushed in the opposite direction by doing that. Over the last few months I have been watching debates between Christians and atheists, Christians and Muslims, and even between different denominations of Christianity. I finished reading the bible and have now started on the Quran. Whenever I get interested in a subject, I get almost obsessive in my study of it, and right now that topic just happens to be religion.

Can you tell me some of your personal favorite speakers on youtube or specific videos that I can look up?

(On a side note, so far my impression is that part of the Quran was written to directly refute Christianity. The bluntness of it is actually kind of funny. I'm not even half way through and it's constantly saying things like "Allah didn't have a son" or "Allah is only one, not three." It's a little more eloquent than that but not by much. Also a lot of it is just rehashing stories from the Old Testament.)
 
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Silmarien

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This is interesting. Are you saying that you realized that you believed in God but just didn't like the idea at that point? Or did you at one point not believe in God and was convinced otherwise?

I did not believe in God, no. I had strong leanings towards pantheism, however, and I viewed it and atheism as two sides of the same coin--either everything was divine or nothing was. I was too drawn towards mysticism to really believe that the numinous didn't exist, but vague pantheism is a far cry from belief in a personal God. Moving from pantheism to theism was far trickier and has involved actual convincing. It's much easier to come at from a pantheistic than an atheistic background, though--I don't expect or want the sort of sharply defined conceptions of God that a lot of empirically minded people do.

An interesting thing is, I'm actually getting pushed in the opposite direction by doing that.

Which direction are you being pushed in? Opposite in relation to where you were before or compared to Quid's story?

Whenever I get interested in a subject, I get almost obsessive in my study of it, and right now that topic just happens to be religion.

Same. I really don't want to know how much money I've spent on theology books in the past year.

(On a side note, so far my impression is that part of the Quran was written to directly refute Christianity. The bluntness of it is actually kind of funny. I'm not even half way through and it's constantly saying things like "Allah didn't have a son" or "Allah is only one, not three." It's a little more eloquent than that but not by much. Also a lot of it is just rehashing stories from the Old Testament.)

Yes... the Koran has plenty to tell about Mohammed's moods towards different religious groups around him, and how they changed over time. It's an interesting book, for sure.
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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Which direction are you being pushed in? Opposite in relation to where you were before or compared to Quid's story?
Well for most of my life I really didn't think about these kinds of questions. I for the most part considered myself agnostic. My oldest brother is also an atheist is really into philosophy and epistemology and he kind of spurred my interest. Now as I am studying this and thinking about it more I realized that my definition of agnostic wasn't quite correct and that I am actually an atheist. And after watching these debates and discussions I'm finding myself more and more put off by many of the
tenets of religions. I wasn't on a path to become religious when I started looking into it and I'm even farther away now than when I started. I've always been skeptical, spirituality was always a hard concept for me to accept.
 
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Silmarien

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And after watching these debates and discussions I'm finding myself more and more put off by many of the tenets of religions.

What have you been watching and what are the tenets that you're being put off by? I just noticed that you've been getting into arguments with some of our more conservative brethren--keep in mind that you're getting a very narrow picture of what religion is if this is your main source of information. Capitalism isn't divinely mandated and soteriology/eschatology is a pretty diverse field.

I've always been skeptical, spirituality was always a hard concept for me to accept.

What do you mean? That people have spiritual dimensions or yearnings, or ghosts and spirits and magic and what not?
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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What have you been watching and what are the tenets that you're being put off by?

What do you mean? That people have spiritual dimensions or yearnings, or ghosts and spirits and magic and what not?
Well I don't want to get to much into my objections here, but the main one is simply the idea of a punishment for not believing. I have a lot of issues with the Bible's historicity and the morals expressed in many parts, especially the Old Testament.

When I say I am skeptical it means that I was never convinced of the truth of the supernatural or divine. There was a time when I was more open to the idea but every time I would look into something supposedly supernatural (ghosts, miracles, near death experiences etc.) I would invariably find more reason to doubt these kind of things.

There is a youtube channel called Atheist vs Theist debates that has hundreds of debates between various speakers related to Religion and the supernatural. It's a lot of formal debates and a few radio show debates. So far I haven't found any of the theists very convincing. With the inter-religious debates, I've watched a few debates about conditional immortality and traditionalist views of hell. (I kind of find myself agreeing with the conditionalists on that point.) I've watched a quite few debates with James White going against other Christians or Muslims. I think he does a really good job of encapsulating the idea of Christianity and he seems very well versed with the scriptures.

This has been kind of rambily but I think I got my point across.
 
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klutedavid

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I have a few more questions. This is aimed at people who didn't grow up Christian or in a religious household. I just want to know what sparked your turn? I don't need you to give me the whole story as I'm sure most of you have posted that elsewhere on the forum. I just want to know the first thing that made you decide to start looking and what the main thing about Christianity that resonated with you?

I grew up in a secular house so when I look at different religions, it is always as an outsider. For me personally I don't see a path that would me to any religion. It would be interesting to hear from those of you who did find that path and did take it.
Hello TFA.

I did not grow up in a Christian family.

I did not become a Christian until almost thirty years of age. A friend of mine started reading the Bible and talked about God a lot, though what he said did not sound correct. So I got myself a Bible and started reading the New Testament, in order to demonstrate that the text would be unreliable and exaggerated to my friend.

What I read in the New Testament was far beyond what I expected from such an ancient text. In the New Testament there were references to fulfilled Old Testament prophecies, for example.

Daniel 7:13-14
I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like
a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented
before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples,
nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting
dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

It was these Old Testament prophecies that I could not dismiss, in fact, these prophecies seemed to explain the identity and purpose of Jesus Christ. The Gospels simply describe Jesus fulfilling the demands of these Old Testament prophecies, not obvious but extremely clever.
 
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Silmarien

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Well I don't want to get to much into my objections here, but the main one is simply the idea of a punishment for not believing. I have a lot of issues with the Bible's historicity and the morals expressed in many parts, especially the Old Testament.

When I say I am skeptical it means that I was never convinced of the truth of the supernatural or divine. There was a time when I was more open to the idea but every time I would look into something supposedly supernatural (ghosts, miracles, near death experiences etc.) I would invariably find more reason to doubt these kind of things.

There is a youtube channel called Atheist vs Theist debates that has hundreds of debates between various speakers related to Religion and the supernatural. It's a lot of formal debates and a few radio show debates. So far I haven't found any of the theists very convincing. With the inter-religious debates, I've watched a few debates about conditional immortality and traditionalist views of hell. (I kind of find myself agreeing with the conditionalists on that point.) I've watched a quite few debates with James White going against other Christians or Muslims. I think he does a really good job of encapsulating the idea of Christianity and he seems very well versed with the scriptures.

This has been kind of rambily but I think I got my point across.

I see. It seems to me that you have very specific issues with Christianity (issues that I once shared), and are focusing your attention on those parts of the Christian world, i.e., Evangelicalism and Calvinism, that will reinforce the problems you already have rather than providing you with a different perspective on the religion.

For your concerns about the Old Testament, I would suggest looking at it as an ancient people's attempt to understand their God and their place in the world rather than as a completely accurate record of ancient history and set of rules handed down by God. Keep in mind that the Old Testament predates history as an actual field, so you can't really expect a rigorous, facts-based approach. Different world. Most Christians view the Old Testament in the light of the picture of God revealed in the Gospel instead of trying to mash the two together. I'm not familiar enough with Old Testament scholars to recommend anyone, but for the New Testament, I'd take a look at the works of Larry Hurtado, N.T. Wright, and perhaps Richard Bauckham and James D.G. Dunn.

As for being convinced of the truth of the supernatural, in my experience Catholic apologists have the most powerful arguments, though they're rather difficult to wrap your head around. I wrote up a post elsewhere with some recommendations earlier today, if you're interested.

When it comes to the doctrine of hell, that is obviously a very difficult topic. Keep in mind that there are interpretations that are not strictly retributive--I only find the more existential approaches plausible myself. There are also inclusivists and universalists to take into account. I mentioned Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's comments in a different thread; if you want that link again, it was here: Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All? | Origen | Free Will

An easier read from a similar perspective would be Father Aidan Kimel's blog post here: St Isaac the Syrian: Hell and the Scourge of Divine Love

The last thing I'll leave you with on that front is a short video by Anglican Bishop N.T. Wright on the meaning of hell:
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Sorry I took so long to reply.
Don't worry about it. People come and go.

An interesting thing is, I'm actually getting pushed in the opposite direction by doing that. Over the last few months I have been watching debates between Christians and atheists, Christians and Muslims, and even between different denominations of Christianity. I finished reading the bible and have now started on the Quran. Whenever I get interested in a subject, I get almost obsessive in my study of it, and right now that topic just happens to be religion.
This is very different from what I am talking about though. You are watching debates, ie. oppositional confrontations. Are you trying to understand the religion from its own perspective? Trying to see what its adherents see, why it is held to so resolutely? You understand something by thinking on it from within its own paradigm, to put on the persona of one of its own, and only then do you understand a debate between those with differing viewpoints which then shed light on each. Often people speak at cross purposes, assume certain axioms implicitly without realising it, and unless both participants share this worldview, this is inescapable.

This is the problem of human tribalism. It is inherent that we assume certain roles and subconsciously these impact what we think. Before understanding a viewpoint you do not hold, you need to deconstruct your own to its base axioms, see how these differ from the others', and then proceed to assume their axioms. Only then, can your conclusions and theirs be juxtaposed and examined, when you are essentially speaking a common language or cognizant of where you clearly are not.
This is the problem with political debates, religious debates, etc. Everyone brings confirmation bias and implicit bias to the table, and we can never completely shake it really. Humans innately classify us and them.
From what you wrote, you already start out with a view that the supernatural does not exist, and clearly have bought the new atheist reclassification of agnosticism into atheism. The latter helps to expand their side, so that it can encompass far more than their actual views would allow, which increases the listeners favour by 'being one of ours' - it is a trick of Sophistry, as old as Roman Emperors calling auxiliaries Quirites or Citizens.
We all have this problem. Now as a Christian, I have the opposite problem that I use to have, in that now I have to try and see Atheist views by their own merits and not just confirm their opponents from my Christian bias, because I happen to implicitly agree with them. You are starting with a disbelief in the supernatural, so no amount of talk of God, the Incarnation, etc. would ever appear credible. A suspension of disbelief is required to understand the viewpoint for its own merits. There are two wonderful little essays by CS Lewis called Meditation in a toolshed and Miracles, both in God in the Dock, that touch on this problem.
Akin to this is condemnation by association. I don't like the excesses of the Soviet Union, so it was all bad, or Colonialism. Things are seldom so black and white. This is often levelled at religion because it has a long pedigree back to the the earliest strata of civilisation, so has archaic detritus in modern eyes. The difference is that secularism is not treated as a block, so Christians are condemned for the Crusades, but Atheists aren't for the Khmer Rouge - it is a double standard one should avoid.

Lastly, we enter the fact that schooling largely focusses on Empiricism. Empiricism cannot prove Religion by its very nature, hence the methodological Naturalism of Science, which people confuse for Metaphysical Naturalism. Empiricism does not come naturally, children need to be taught it in school, and it took centuries of philosophy before the view was even articulated. Check out the Princess Anne experiments to see what I am talking about. However, being taught Empiricism, people try and apply it as if it is the best arbitrar of truth, while it is itself rife with assumptions on the nature of the world. This colours many views on the miraculous and strengthens factors like inattentional blindness when it comes to the religious. We thus have an educational problem as well, which has a underlying belief structure, even if not explicit, which can even be seen in other terms in use: a good example is Progressive vs conservative - Progressing to what? It creates the illusion of progression, of modernity, to one side, thus biasing adherents to already consider it an 'improvement', regardless if any form of evidence backs it up or not. Again Lewis has a good book around this, called the Abolition of Man, how we create Men without Chests.

Think of it this way: Almost everyone who imagines themselves in Nazi Germany believe they wouldn't have become Nazis or hidden Jews, but the reality is most simply didn't. This is why Nazis are treated as an Other, instead that they were completely normal Educated Germans - shopkeepers and doctors etc. We need to understand from their own perspectives, their own culture, to see what was going on. We could all be Nazis given the correct factors and intellectual environment, seeing that Liberal Educated Germany ended up there.
Similarly the transition from Atheist to Theist requires a dramatic shift in the understanding of beliefs, of why people would hold something with such fervour that has no evidence or dubious factors from my perspective; but that they consider sound. Often they look at the same data - many Archaeologists, Biblical scholars, philosophers, scientists, etc. belong to either camp. What clinches it for one, is dismissed as unimportant by the other, or even clinches their antithetical view to them. Perspective is required, bearing in mind that no one is capable of being truly objective and biases abound. As I said, very difficult to evaluate the merit of a view you do not agree with, and there is no guarantee that other biases or principles didn't come into play. Hence, from my perspective a hard fought and long campaign, but one that requires Faith or lack thereof to move in anyway from one side to the other.

Can you tell me some of your personal favorite speakers on youtube or specific videos that I can look up?
Sorry, I don't watch youtube speakers. I am a reader. As you can clearly see, I am quite fond of CS Lewis, though. For Christianity you have 2 millenia of good writers to draw from, and I implore you not to focus on only the modern ones. It is a fallacy to think the more recent something is, the better it must be, but this is a natural problem people fall into. Even atheists, the best bunch are not those alive today, who even as an atheist I had found second tier to writers like Russell or Nietsche.
(On a side note, so far my impression is that part of the Quran was written to directly refute Christianity. The bluntness of it is actually kind of funny. I'm not even half way through and it's constantly saying things like "Allah didn't have a son" or "Allah is only one, not three." It's a little more eloquent than that but not by much. Also a lot of it is just rehashing stories from the Old Testament.)
A lot of the Koran was written for immediate aims of Mohammed. This is why there are pro-Jewish parts from the Medinan period that then sharply turn anti-Jewish when he held Mecca. Or how revelations allowed him more wives than what was the maximum in earlier revelations. Another more controversial example is the Satanic Verses, which may represent a short-lived entente with the Pagans of Mecca, that Muslims have stoutly denied since.
With Christianity, the Koran clearly opposes a lot of it, but when it was compiled, the Ummayid Caliphate was largely in conflict with the Byzantines, so again expected. It also seems to be confused sometimes, as somewhere within the Koran it condemns Christians for worshipping Mary, but Mohammed confused the minor heresy of Collyridianism with Christian doctrine in general here.
 
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