Non-Christians, where is the body of Jesus of Nazareth?

[Jonathan Mathews]

With all due respect, in reading this, I think my question still stands.

When my eyes were opened, I had just enough light to see I was Darkness and I saw Hell at the end of a gravel path I was walking down. It's a bottomless pit about the size of a football field. When I asked my earthly father "How do I not go to Hell?" he said "Oh. That's something you have to talk to Jesus about." We knelt down and he led me in a prayer where I confessed all my sins to Jesus, BELIEVING He was somewhere up in Heaven, beyond outer-space. Then I asked Jesus to "Please come into my heart" and He immediately responded by pouring out His Holy Spirit into my soul. It was tangible, real, and I could feel Him come in like a mighty rushing wind or a waterfall from heaven. All my shame, fear, sin, and guilt were immediately washed away and I ran down the street to tell my best friend "You don't have to go to Hell!". Since then, I hear that same Spirit talk to me from the inside. He has led me to partake in miracles, cast out demons, and survive poisonous substances. The Fruit of the Spirit are Love, Joy, Peace....he has given me those. The Gifts of the spirit include Discerning Spirits, Healing, Speaking in Tongues with Interpretation, Prophecy, etc... He has given me those and I've used them. There are many signs of having the Holy Spirit (Mark 16:17-18). I have experienced all of them except I never picked up a poisonous snake.

So initially, all I had was Faith, but when I used that Faith to call on God, He responded by pouring out His Holy Spirit with Knowledge, signs, and wonders. . You must have faith to go to God in prayer. You must believe He exists to pray to Him. But once you do, He gives you KNOWLEDGE of Himself, His Kingdom, and Truth about ALL things.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

The Truth on whether Jesus' body disintegrated or was raised is not "I don't know". That's your lack of knowledge, not knowledge itself. You have already confessed honestly that you do not WANT to know the Truth on this matter. And that shows you do not have it. You can't disregard the Truth on this matter, say you don't want to know it, and then at the same time claim you have it. You're contradicting yourself. You're not even being True to your own words. That's called "doublemindedness", a divided mind.

No that is the truth, I don't know, and neither do you. You have faith that you hold the truth, that you have the knowledge, but that isn't a true account of the facts. That can only be had from evidence assessed as the scene and the questioning of eyewitness testimony. I don't want to know the truth in this regard because it can't be known (an assessment of the facts) It comes down to faith. That's ok, I understand Christians have faith that they have the truth, I don't. I'm saying I don't know. Neither of us have the truth in a real sense, just one has faith the other not.

 

[dlamberth]

When my eyes were opened, I had just enough light to see I was Darkness and I saw Hell at the end of a gravel path I was walking down. It's a bottomless pit about the size of a football field. When I asked my earthly father "How do I not go to Hell?" he said "Oh. That's something you have to talk to Jesus about." We knelt down and he led me in a prayer where I confessed all my sins to Jesus, BELIEVING He was somewhere up in Heaven, beyond outer-space. Then I asked Jesus to "Please come into my heart" and He immediately responded by pouring out His Holy Spirit into my soul. It was tangible, real, and I could feel Him come in like a mighty rushing wind or a waterfall from heaven. All my shame, fear, sin, and guilt were immediately washed away and I ran down the street to tell my best friend "You don't have to go to Hell!". Since then, I hear that same Spirit talk to me from the inside. He has led me to partake in miracles, cast out demons, and survive poisonous substances. The Fruit of the Spirit are Love, Joy, Peace....he has given me those. The Gifts of the spirit include Discerning Spirits, Healing, Speaking in Tongues with Interpretation, Prophecy, etc... He has given me those and I've used them. There are many signs of having the Holy Spirit (Mark 16:17-18). I have experienced all of them except I never picked up a poisonous snake.

So initially, all I had was Faith, but when I used that Faith to call on God, He responded by pouring out His Holy Spirit with Knowledge, signs, and wonders. . You must have faith to go to God in prayer. You must believe He exists to pray to Him. But once you do, He gives you KNOWLEDGE of Himself, His Kingdom, and Truth about ALL things.

Which is nice and all, but it's not even close to my experiences of the Divine, of which I've also gained knowledge and wisdom. The way I see it is that you have faith in your experiences that you depend upon and I have faith in my experiences that I depend upon.

Just as an aside and a small window into how I view one's relationship with God, other than Love, Compassion, Empathy and Service to those in need, (most of which you didn't mention) all of that other stuff that you have listed as gifts of the spirit, IMHO is a distraction and I'm sorry to say that they really means nothing to me other than ego talk. In these times of change, self-proclaimed prophets are a dime a dozen. What I look for to find True Lovers of God is in a persons Service to people in need. If they are giving their heart and soul to helping others with Loving presence, that's when I know that they get it.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

No that is the truth, I don't know, and neither do you. You have faith that you hold the truth, that you have the knowledge, but that isn't a true account of the facts. That can only be had from evidence assessed as the scene and the questioning of eyewitness testimony. I don't want to know the truth in this regard because it can't be known (an assessment of the facts) It comes down to faith. That's ok, I understand Christians have faith that they have the truth, I don't. I'm saying I don't know. Neither of us have the truth in a real sense, just one has faith the other not.

A blind farmer goes into a cave and finds a blind fish. The farmer asks the fish "Where is the Sun? Has it risen?" The fish replies, "The Truth is, I do not know". The farmer replies "I come from the land of the Sun. I have felt it's warmth. And I have friends who have their sight and have seen the sun and felt it's warmth." The fish replies "I do not know the Sun is risen, and neither do you." The farmer would take the fish out of the cave into the land of the Sun, and the fish would become a man, and the man would know the warmth of the Sun, but the fish would not believe the farmer so the farmer left the cave.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

A blind farmer goes into a cave and finds a blind fish. The farmer asks the fish "Where is the Sun? Has it risen?" The fish replies, "The Truth is, I do not know". The farmer replies "I come from the land of the Sun. I have felt it's warmth. And I have friends who have their sight and have seen the sun and felt it's warmth." The fish replies "I do not know the Sun is risen, and neither do you." The farmer would take the fish out of the cave into the land of the Sun, and the fish would become a man, and the man would know the warmth of the Sun, but the fish would not believe the farmer so the farmer left the cave.

Only the farmers friends were privy to the truth.

 

[cloudyday2]

I have seen some historians argue that there are no early records of Christians venerating the empty tomb or an occupied tomb. Of course there are not a lot of early records of any kind on Christianity, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that there are no tourist maps from the era showing the location of the empty tomb. LOL

 

[caerlerion]

This question is for non-Christians:

Where is the body of Jesus of Nazareth? I want to hear what you believe.

Thanks

The historical likelihood is his body was thrown in a common grave with other criminals, where he decomposed and disappeared into the earth.

The earliest account of Jesus' resurrection is Paul's. He never saw Jesus in person. He never mentions the empty tomb. He heavily implies the resurrection of Jesus took place on a spiritual plane. Only by the time the gospel of Mark was written was Jesus' resurrection thought to consist of his crucified body waking up. The empty tomb is probably an invention of the gospel of Mark.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

This question is for non-Christians:

Where is the body of Jesus of Nazareth? I want to hear what you believe.

Thanks

Somewhere, like that of Alexander the Great or CleopatraVII, both of whom were much more significant at the time of their death. (Remember, while your religion eventually came to see Jesus of Nazareth as God Incarnate, all but his most devout followers regarded him as just another peasant messiah wannabe - whose execution was basically proof that he wasn't the anointed leader who'd free Judaea from foreign invaders.)
Was there an empty tomb, as the gospels claim? Possibly. However, given that the timeline of what happened next, how it happened and where it happened is more than a little inconsistent, I believe there's a lot of myth-making involved there.

 

[dlamberth]

The empty tomb is probably an invention of the gospel of Mark.

Even before the Gospel of Mark, I think the empty tomb myth is an invention within the Oral traditions which were passed on, embellished, and cultivated within a cult like Jewish sect.

 

[caerlerion]

Even before the Gospel of Mark, I think the empty tomb myth is an invention within the Oral traditions which were passed on, embellished, and cultivated within a cult like Jewish sect.

This is also possible, but the reason I suspect the author of Mark is the one who invented the empty tomb is because of the way he plays with the OT in the crucifixion narrative.

Jesus arranged for his arrival into Jerusalem during Passover week to invoke messianic claims, and not longer after he went to the temple for the sole purpose of causing a quasi-violent disruption of the merchant activities there. Revolts were met with swift punishment by the Romans, and Passover would soon become a powder keg of ill will to the Romans. What most likely happened is the merciless and brutal Pilate ordered Jesus' arrest and had him executed before he could stoke any further trouble as more pilgrims arrived in the city.

After the events of 70, Gentile Christians wanted to make themselves look good to the Romans. They shifted blame for Jesus' death to the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. The author of Mark achieves this by grabbing bits and pieces from the OT to rewrite the events of Jesus' execution as the fulfillment of prophecy. A pinch of Amos 2 here, a dash of Amos 8 there, sprinkle Psalm 22 around. Christians may have been applying these Bible passages to Jesus thematically, but Mark made it literal by mixing them into the events themselves. Jesus had been identified with the "suffering servant" by Mark's time, so the author of Mark took part of the suffering servant prophecies literally. He invented Jesus' burial in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb from verse 9 in Isaiah 53, "they made ... his tomb with the rich". The author then had the tomb found empty after three days, taken from verse 2 in Hosea 6, "on the third day he will raise us up".

If it was the author of Mark who invented the tomb, it would naturally be a source of confusion to readers for why no one had heard of it before. The author has a simple explanation. The only people who knew the tomb was empty were Mary, Mary, and Salome. They were instructed by an angel to tell the disciples, but "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid". (Everything after verse 8 in Mark 16 is a much later invention from another writer, someone who had read Matthew and Luke.) The gospel of Mark revealed this lost revelation of the empty tomb for the first time. The authors of Matthew, Luke, and John each embellished the story further with their own gospels.

 

[JackRT]

This is also possible, but the reason I suspect the author of Mark is the one who invented the empty tomb is because of the way he plays with the OT in the crucifixion narrative.

Jesus arranged for his arrival into Jerusalem during Passover week to invoke messianic claims, and not longer after he went to the temple for the sole purpose of causing a quasi-violent disruption of the merchant activities there. Revolts were met with swift punishment by the Romans, and Passover would soon become a powder keg of ill will to the Romans. What most likely happened is the merciless and brutal Pilate ordered Jesus' arrest and had him executed before he could stoke any further trouble as more pilgrims arrived in the city.

After the events of 70, Gentile Christians wanted to make themselves look good to the Romans. They shifted blame for Jesus' death to the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. The author of Mark achieves this by grabbing bits and pieces from the OT to rewrite the events of Jesus' execution as the fulfillment of prophecy. A pinch of Amos 2 here, a dash of Amos 8 there, sprinkle Psalm 22 around. Christians may have been applying these Bible passages to Jesus thematically, but Mark made it literal by mixing them into the events themselves. Jesus had been identified with the "suffering servant" by Mark's time, so the author of Mark took part of the suffering servant prophecies literally. He invented Jesus' burial in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb from verse 9 in Isaiah 53, "they made ... his tomb with the rich". The author then had the tomb found empty after three days, taken from verse 2 in Hosea 6, "on the third day he will raise us up".

If it was the author of Mark who invented the tomb, it would naturally be a source of confusion to readers for why no one had heard of it before. The author has a simple explanation. The only people who knew the tomb was empty were Mary, Mary, and Salome. They were instructed by an angel to tell the disciples, but "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid". (Everything after verse 8 in Mark 16 is a much later invention from another writer, someone who had read Matthew and Luke.) The gospel of Mark revealed this lost revelation of the empty tomb for the first time. The authors of Matthew, Luke, and John each embellished the story further with their own gospels.

This I believe is close to the truth. We must always remember that the gospel narratives are not literal histories but are rather interpretive narratives. In addition it is little realized by modern readers that the four evangelists crafted their narratives using the Hebrew/Jewish literary technique of haggadic midrash. They searched their scriptures for stories that they then wrote into their narratives.

For example in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."

The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple in the first century and had not been used for over 200 years. They had been replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

In this way old scripture was incorporated into new to establish a continuity of the relationship between Yah and the chosen people. We are not reading "history prophesied" but rather "prophesy historicized". This is done time and time again through the Gospels particularly the Synoptic Gospels.

 

[Not David]

This is also possible, but the reason I suspect the author of Mark is the one who invented the empty tomb is because of the way he plays with the OT in the crucifixion narrative.

Jesus arranged for his arrival into Jerusalem during Passover week to invoke messianic claims, and not longer after he went to the temple for the sole purpose of causing a quasi-violent disruption of the merchant activities there. Revolts were met with swift punishment by the Romans, and Passover would soon become a powder keg of ill will to the Romans. What most likely happened is the merciless and brutal Pilate ordered Jesus' arrest and had him executed before he could stoke any further trouble as more pilgrims arrived in the city.

After the events of 70, Gentile Christians wanted to make themselves look good to the Romans. They shifted blame for Jesus' death to the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. The author of Mark achieves this by grabbing bits and pieces from the OT to rewrite the events of Jesus' execution as the fulfillment of prophecy. A pinch of Amos 2 here, a dash of Amos 8 there, sprinkle Psalm 22 around. Christians may have been applying these Bible passages to Jesus thematically, but Mark made it literal by mixing them into the events themselves. Jesus had been identified with the "suffering servant" by Mark's time, so the author of Mark took part of the suffering servant prophecies literally. He invented Jesus' burial in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb from verse 9 in Isaiah 53, "they made ... his tomb with the rich". The author then had the tomb found empty after three days, taken from verse 2 in Hosea 6, "on the third day he will raise us up".

If it was the author of Mark who invented the tomb, it would naturally be a source of confusion to readers for why no one had heard of it before. The author has a simple explanation. The only people who knew the tomb was empty were Mary, Mary, and Salome. They were instructed by an angel to tell the disciples, but "they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid". (Everything after verse 8 in Mark 16 is a much later invention from another writer, someone who had read Matthew and Luke.) The gospel of Mark revealed this lost revelation of the empty tomb for the first time. The authors of Matthew, Luke, and John each embellished the story further with their own gospels.

He invented it 20 years after the death of Christ? He really is a slow writer.

 

[JackRT]

He invented it 20 years after the death of Christ? He really is a slow writer.

Actually Mark wrote about AD70 so it is closer to 40 years.

 

[caerlerion]

He invented it 20 years after the death of Christ? He really is a slow writer.

Mark was written around AD 75. It wasn't written by anyone who knew Jesus. It wasn't even written by anyone who knew the Judean geography. It didn't take the author 45 years to write it, it was written by someone 45 years after the fact.

 

[Not David]

Mark was written around AD 75. It wasn't written by anyone who knew Jesus. It wasn't even written by anyone who knew the Judean geography. It didn't take the author 45 years to write it, it was written by someone 45 years after the fact.

Even worse according to that idea. So that conspiracy theory is just baloney.

 

[JackRT]

Even worse according to that idea. So that conspiracy theory is just baloney.

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. Papyrus Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)

Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)

Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)

Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

 

[dlamberth]

Mark was written around AD 75. It wasn't written by anyone who knew Jesus. It wasn't even written by anyone who knew the Judean geography. It didn't take the author 45 years to write it, it was written by someone 45 years after the fact.

Which is why I still feel that it was carried forward to that point by Oral story telling. Which was a big deal back than.

 

[caerlerion]

Even worse according to that idea. So that conspiracy theory is just baloney.

There was no "conspiracy". That implies a concentrated effort of many people to deceive. That's not what happened.

Religions evolve over time. And sometimes members of the religion have an epiphany that "reveals" something new. Christianity was not an exception to this normal historical process.

 

[JackRT]

Which is why I still feel that it was carried forward to that point by Oral story telling. Which was a big deal back than.

In the first few decades of the last century a great deal of research went into trying to understand oral traditions while they were still around to study. This research focused on societies which were largely illiterate. This study was greatly assisted by the use of newly invented sound recording machines. The researchers discovered that the storytellers work from a 'framework' but tailor the narrative to suit the needs and moods of the audience at the time. A story is never told the same way twice but the framework itself remains intact. Once such a story is committed to print it becomes locked in place for all time. Moreover once that has happened it becomes virtually impossible to discern what is framework and what is the story teller's own variation on the theme. This is what has happened in both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. What we are reading are very human documents.

 

[dlamberth]

In the first few decades of the last century a great deal of research went into trying to understand oral traditions while they were still around to study. This research focused on societies which were largely illiterate. This study was greatly assisted by the use of newly invented sound recording machines. The researchers discovered that the storytellers work from a 'framework' but tailor the narrative to suit the needs and moods of the audience at the time. A story is never told the same way twice but the framework itself remains intact. Once such a story is committed to print it becomes locked in place for all time. Moreover once that has happened it becomes virtually impossible to discern what is framework and what is the story teller's own variation on the theme. This is what has happened in both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. What we are reading are very human documents.

But it doesn't mean that the bases of the Oral story is true. Take for instance the wide variety of creation stories around the world that the indigenous peoples have.