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Non Chalcedonian/Chalcedonian Debate and Discussion

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by Al Masihi, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’ve really been interested into getting into a debate or discussion if you will about the Council of Chalcedon and I’d like to defend the Orthodoxy of the Oriental Orthodox who have been defamed as Monophysites by the Chalcedonians for a long time now despite the agreed christological statements between the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. For those who don’t know after much searching I have decided to adopt a Miaphysite Christology and I’m waiting to turn 18 to be received into the Syriac Orthodox Church.
     
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  2. Nancy Hale

    Nancy Hale Member

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    I don't know enough to discuss. I know a little bit about Coptic, more about EO and RC.
    I just want to say good for you making a decision at such a young age; I've been trying to decide between RC and EO for a decade.
     
  3. public hermit

    public hermit Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just curious. How does Miaphysite Christology unite the attributes of the divine and human into one nature, yet without mixture, alteration, or confusion? I take it that is the upside of the two-natures in one person Christology of Chalcedon, right? The Chalcedon Christology avoids mixture, alteration, and confusion of the attributes?
     
  4. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Reading about the historical split and the actual Councils that took place such Ephesus and Chalcedon helped me a lot and reading about the Church Fathers and heretics such as the clash between Saint Cyril and Nestorius. Also I found the Miaphysite Christological formula to be superior and more logical to the one given at Chalcedon. You should use these same methods when reading about the split between the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
     
  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    here we go again
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’m not sure what that means?
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The two natures aren’t combined in the sense of mixing or so forth, in the same way man is one nature derived from two, body and soul, each retain their distinct properties without mixture, alteration, and confusion of the attributes and yet unite to form a single united composite nature.
     
  8. public hermit

    public hermit Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That makes sense. And, it avoids the tension of trying to make sense of what it means for a person to have two distinct natures.
     
  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think one of he main problems with saying in the “two natures” formula is that it indirectly leads to Nestorianism not to mention that Nestorius agreed to the Christological Statement of Chalcedon when he was still alive in exile when the council took place I believe.
     
  10. public hermit

    public hermit Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you mean, if you have two natures, then for all practical purposes you have two persons?
     
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    because you were defending Eastern Rite Catholicism before becoming Eastern Catholic, you defended Orthodoxy before becoming Orthodox, and now the same thing again.

    I don't think the Syriacs need someone who isn't yet Syriac to defend them.
     
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  12. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you say in two natures that each preform distinct operations as the Tome of Leo says then your indirectly going to be lead into Nestorianism.
     
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  13. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    if the "in two Natures" formula let to Nestorianism, then St Cyril would not have used it, and he did.

    Chalcedon also began by condemning Nestorius.

    also, St Leo was one of St Cyril's defenders and supporters against Nestorius. it was Leo who was St Celestine's deacon, and St Leo commission St John Cassian to write against Nestorius.
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    St Cyril of Jerusalem says there are two opterations, and he is a saint for both Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians.

    so no.
     
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  15. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn’t say I’m Syriac Orthodox yet, I said I hold to a Miaphysite Christology and I’m not Chalcedonian, I defended Eastern Catholicism because I found unity with Rome to be appealing, I defended Eastern Orthodoxy because I thought it was the best Christian denomination, I never actually read about the Council of Chalcedon and I used to dismiss the Oriental Orthodox as Monophysties before actually reading the Christology to see if it actually made sense or was Monophysite in origin, it wasn’t and still isn’t, in my actual beliefs as I looked into things and I knew it’s either going to be Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy I decided that the latters Christology makes more sense. Hence I’d like a discussion between Non Chalcedonians of which I am one since I no longer accept Chalcedon as a Ecumenical Council and I’ll defend other Christians that hold to the same Christology as I do. I’ve been dealing with your posts for a while now and you seem to disregard them because I don’t belong to any specific denomination officially without actually dealing with the content of my posts. I’m not claiming to be a part of any denomination I’m talking about Christology and doctrines here just like I always have in the past.
     
  16. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I know. that's the problem. you are defending a Christology of a group that you aren't even a member of. that's not good. you aren't a non-Chalcedonian. you just disagree with Chalcedon and you have not really looked in depth.

    so please, just stop.
     
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He never used it in the same way Chalcedon did or how Leo’s Tome did, the idea of one nature doing something and another doing something else is absolutely foreign to his writings, Saint Cyril speaks of the One Christ doing everything and everything he does is done either through his own humanity or divinity such as his suffering on the cross through his humanity however Cyril makes it clear that Christ suffered through his humanity not that the human nature suffered and the God didn’t die like how the Tome of Leo describes Christ. there’s nothing wrong or Un-Orthodox with dyophysitism per say. Chalcedon condemning Nestorius doesn’t mean it doesn't mean it wasn’t influenced by Antiochian Christology in one way or another, Chalcedon would have to condemn Nestorius even if it didn’t want to anyway because it has to make itself appear to continue the anathemas issues at Ephesus if it is to make itself Ecumenical. Leo was so great a friend to Cyril that he supported Theodoret of Cyprus a Nestorian that supported Nestorius’s removal of the title Theotokos for the blessed virgin. The Chalcedonians still regard him as blessed on their calendar despite condemning his writings against Cyril for some odd reason. By the way condemning heresy doesn’t mean you can’t fall into it yourself the biggest example would be Apollonarius who raged against the Arian heresy only to fall into another one himself or Eutychus who raged against the Nestorian heresy only to fall into heresy himself.
     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Non Chalcedonians don’t deny that there are two operations in the One Nature, they deny that the natures themselves each preform actions separate to one another.
     
  19. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That’s not a problem, if I disagree with Chalcedon then I’m not Chalcedonian and if I’m not Chalcedonian I’d have to fall into the Non Chalcedonian camp. You defend a Christology that belongs to other Christian denominations beside yourself such as Roman Catholics or Protestants, so what your saying doesn’t make much sense. We’re both trying to look into depth right now, that’s the purpose of this thread so we can both learn and others may also learn. So please stop with this it’s getting very irritating that you comment on all threads I make here as if I’m not even a Christian yet thus I have no authority to speak on anything.
     
  20. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    Why shouldn’t he be able to get to know why his belief is correct/wrong before he converts Father?
     
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