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Featured Nobody Preaches John 14:12

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by timewerx, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Most Christians know about John 3:16 and can recite the verse (or at least tell what it is about)

    But if you ask Christians what they know about belief, you'll mostly get confusing answers.

    That's because they never knew about John 14:12.

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    Why this incredibly important verse recieved incredibly small attention in our religion is a mystery but one could guess the reasons why.

    John 3:16 is meaningless without John 14:12. It tells you the importance of belief which is meaningless if you don't know what belief is. Hence, the importance of John 14:12.



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  2. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Not really, but yes. lol All the info is there in Jesus' teachings but gentile formed Christianity turned away from the Gospel of the Kingdom, therefore making it necessary to place scriptures like John 14:12 and others in the background of doctrine of a religion that betrayed the Kingdom of God and returned itself to the State (world of man). John 14:12 speaks of a way of life contrary to the traditional worldly ways of man.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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  3. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Well-Known Member

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    Most probably because John 14:12 calls us into actual action once we have been saved.

    In the verse, Jesus assures his disciples that every believer in him would be enabled to perform the same works that he he'd done, and even greater works than he'd done before them.

    The apostles and the disciples did miracles like those of Jesus. They healed the diseased, they cast out demons, they raised the dead. And this to testify to their teaching's truth.

    Every believer in Jesus is filled with power from God to do greater signs than Jesus himself, namely, to awaken people from spiritual death. To convert sinners, to rescue people from damnation, that's a greater miracle than healing from bodily infirmities and awakening from temporal death.

    The Church's gathering through the Gospel's preaching, didn't begin until after Pentecost. And the reason why the believers can do these great works of saving souls is found in the fact that Christ's going to God. He will then use of his divinity, and will impart to the believers in him this power which he here promises them.

    The great works of converting sinners are Christ's works. And in case the believers, at any time feel their own weakness do the great works which have been given to them, they should ask, they should bring the matter to his attention. He'll attend to the rest.

    He fixes no limit in giving this promise except that the prayer must be made in his name, which excludes all sinful petitions. Christ hears every prayer in his own manner. And by doing so, since God works in him, God's glorified in Jesus.
     
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  4. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    One works of Jesus not very much preached is this:

    John 7:7
    The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.

    Ephesians 5:11
    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    Of course this won't work if your knowledge of good and evil about this world is very limited. Most people don't even realize the system this world uses to make money is evil. Many Christians even think that material wealth are blessings from God when the Bible clearly says they are not - 1 John 2:15-17.
     
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  5. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    It is not hard to do as Jesus commanded without the need for miracles and the like, and simply put the will of God before our own and as individuals, love all as self. Those two commandments go against what man has used as an ideology to build this world in our image.
     
  6. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bingo.
     
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  7. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    The subject of exposing evil as Jesus did and eventually the disciples as any believer of Christ should is not nearly as simple.

    In order to expose evil, one must know what is evil first. This requires some research, investigation, observing.

    Our Bible doesn't go down to the minutest detail of telling how many things are evil in this world or what makes them evil. Worse, the god of this dark world we live in the present is the "Father of lies".

    Thus, knowing that is truth or what is lie in this world is not very straightforward. Sometimes, very difficult to perceive / discern. It may take a lifetime of knowing and even changing if we make mistakes.
     
  8. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    We have many hard-working preachers around the world so it can be mysterious why John 14:12 escapes even their attention.

    Perhaps, the influence of the devil is far stronger upon many than we like to think or imagine (and we fatally lower our guard, fail to be vigilant, stop testing). We take it easy while the devil is working 24/7 very hard.... Many might lose. As the Bible have said maybe plainly true, only few will find life.
     
  9. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    That which betrayed the kingdom cannot teach the ways of the Kingdom nor the truth. It must serve the world of man. Therefore one must look to scripture and not the religion that leads us into it's own image.

    An ah ha moment comes when you realize what we are being taught is not of the Kingdom. Then you will understand evil is simply according to the Bible, putting our will before God's and acting in ways contrary to loving all as self.

    Man's will seeks gain at the expense of others, being self serving in nature, and we self justify our actions by redefining what is good and evil to suit our purpose.

    Religion likes to complicate things in order to explain it. :) . It is quite simple, but you will never find anyone who seeks gain at the expense of others, including religion, to tell you that. Jesus kept saying I tell you the truth for a reason. You can't count on the institutions of man to do so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  10. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    I have understood it in a collective sense. Since the whole Body of believers would receive Power from on high. This is a worldwide juggernaut, hence, greater works than one person, in one location.
     
  11. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    John 16:7-11
    I tell you the truth: it is beneficial for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Redeemer of the accursed will not come to you, but if I depart I shall send him to you. And when he comes, he will correct the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment; Concerning sin, because they do not trust me; Concerning righteousness, because I will go to my Father's presence and you will not see me again; Concerning judgment, because The Prince of this world is judged."

    I've never seen "Comforter" translated like the bolded and underlined above. This does sound like something greater coming to dispatch a three-pronged onslaught upon the darkness.

    It reminds me of:



    Only much much more compelling.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    john 3:16 is the precursor to John 14:12. Typical Jesus fashion is to start a little softer and build up to it's fuller meaning.

    what's interesting is the commissioning here is not for the disciples or the group of 12 but to "whoever believes" and is the same context as 3:16. so those who believe (and by extension do the works of Christ) will do greater things than Christ. what's the cessationist view on this one?
     
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  13. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
    12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    Jesus is talking about miracles, healing, casting out demons. All the works the Father did through Jesus.

    Jesus is saying we will do greater works than He did because of the Holy Spirit.

    What the modern or post modern church misses is the reference to "commandments" and revert to the old testament teachings. Jesus kept the commandments of His Father as only He could. And indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we keep the commandments of Jesus.

    The commandments of Jesus are the "above and beyond" sayings beyond what the law taught.

    Jesus said "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it"

    So perhaps there's a disconnect in relation to the kind of faith we have now, based on the faith they had then.

    There is also an important reason for the prayer fulfillment, so the Father will be glorified in the Son.

    Will God be glorified if it happens? Do you believe absolutely that it will happen? Are you merciful like Jesus was and is merciful? These are important questions to live in.
     
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  14. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    It is still here, you just need to start asking for the right things and for the right reasons.

    The usage of "Name" in the verse in Greek have other meanings, standing out is "cause" or the "Work" that Christ lived and died for - The Lord's Work.

    Thus, it can be said like this: "Whatever you ask for the Lord's Work, it shall be given".

    Beware the kingdom of darkness can also provide this kind help to their followers but with materialistic inclination. They can also pull the same kind of miracles that Christians would expect. Many Christians aren't even aware they are already serving in the Kingdom of darkness.

    Note that money or other material things isn't always the solution to many problems or to accomplish the Lord's work. This is why this resource is not always given. Sometimes, it's up to us to figure out.

    Sometimes, the answer is as crazy as the wildest dreams of children.... Uncorrupted children won't be asking for money or worldly things, they ask for crazy, unbelievable things... Is why Jesus loved them so much. The faith of a little child is what we need. Not the materialistic and boxed up perspective of adults.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  15. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus is saying we today will be able to do greater works than He, why didn't the disciples in Joppa pray over Tabitha and raise her from the dead?

    The disciples at Joppa heard that Peter was nearby at Lydda. They sent two men to Peter, imploring him to come to them without delay. (Acts 8:38)

    If the disciples in Joppa thought that they could simply ask Jesus to raise Tabitha from the dead and it would be done, wouldn't they have prayed for this themselves.

    They instead sent for Peter who was present with Jesus when He said "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

    It seems to me that the disciples in the first century understood that Jesus had given the original disciples more authority than the rest of the believers.
     
  16. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    Matthew 17:17-20
    "Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
     
  17. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    Do you believe that some of the technology we now depend upon (specifically medical) is a work of faith or is it the product of a materialistic world system? In other words, how much of today's technology and scientific thought do you think locks society up in a "boxed up perspective"? Or, is all or most of modern technology and thought the fulfillment of John 14:12?
     
  18. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    I add:

    John 17:20-21
    "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

    If He is in us all, there should be no difference other than what our own unbelief imposes.

    *So we need to cast out the blight and cultivate the seed.
     
  19. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    They also knew more of the Truth than the rest of us. I think there's a strong correlation between knowing the Truth and the magnitude of miracles you can pull off.

    Unfortunately, not all of these are written in the Bible. It's impossible - John 21:25. Something that must be revealed to us by the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and through our own efforts of digging information about the truth of the world we live in.

    It's very similar to the film The Matrix. Neo wasn't able to pull the "supernatural" feats of strength until he came to know more about the truth of the world they lived in.

    Most Christians don't know much of the Truth. John 14:12 is case in point. Other verses like 1 John 2:15-17 would probably surprise them. Even preachers themselves.

    They look at the wrong signs to determine they are in a good spot - Luke 6:25.

    Christianity is in a very very bad shape because it no longer knows and preaches the Truth. If they do, the verses I put here would be familiar to them and actually live it. This is why many never had any supernatural manifestations. Their souls are locked up by materialism (usually) and never gets free.
     
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  20. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I would imagine someone open minded would consider the use of both supernatural and technological gifts whenever possible in order to achieve the best outcome.

    Even Jesus told His disciples to buy swords.

    Even though material things and money represents this dark world, what really makes them evil is how you use them. If used to give yourself a good life or to take advantage of others, then it's evil.

    If you're selling life-saving medicines at an incredible cost, then it's evil (you're serving the rich and oppressing the poor in that case). But sell it a cost that is justified and fair then it's good. Even better if the poor can make use of it without costing them an arm and leg.

    If you do what is right, it's a lot harder to be rich in this dark world. But if you're rich in this dark world, it's a lot harder to find the way to life.
     
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