Noah and the Flood. Fact or Fantasy?

Micaiah

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Other descriptions on fossil formations I've heard include fish dying, falling to the bottom of the sea or river bed, and slowly being covered by sediment. Any comments on this one. I understand the problem here is that many fossils do not show the decay you would expect from this process. The fossils appear to have been buried quickly.
 
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notto

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Originally posted by Micaiah
Other descriptions on fossil formations I've heard include fish dying, falling to the bottom of the sea or river bed, and slowly being covered by sediment. Any comments on this one. I understand the problem here is that many fossils do not show the decay you would expect from this process. The fossils appear to have been buried quickly.

Again, there is no problem with this. There is nothing in geology that says that many of the fossils we find were not created quickly by flooding or simply being covered by mud in a river, lake, bog, mudslide, etc. The problem is that there are many fossils that were not formed this way.

Do you think that a world wide flood is the only way these fossils could have been covered and formed? If not, this is not evidence that supports the world wide flood scenario since it can easily be explained by normal geologic processes that are happening today.

How do you explain this with a world wide flood?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/coalprints.html

Were these tracks created before or after the flood? How can I tell? If they were before the flood, that would mean that everything below it is pre-flood (including the coal seam), correct? If they were formed after the flood, I can assume that everything above it is post flood (including the fossils and remains of anything that is NOT a dinosaur), correct?
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by LightBearer
Evolution is where one kind or species evolves into onother kind.  What I aluded to was adaption within the kind, not changing from one kind to onother.  A dog has always been a dog and a cat has always been a cat.  Yet the creator has given the ability for great variety within the Dog and cat kind or human kind if it comes to that, without ever changing from one kind to the other.  This is not evolution.  Sorry. :)

Sorry, what you described is part of Evolution. Evolution is not merely the emergence of new species... break out the books and review.

psstt.... check out the following.

1. Hybrids & Hybrid Speciation (new species do occur)
2. Selective Reduction
3. Selective Reproduction
4. Adaptation
5. Extinction

I'll stop here... these are all covered under the scientific topic of Evolution.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Doctrine1st
The Noah flood story is the Epic of Gilgamesh with a Hebrew twist plain and simple, or as they use to say on "Dragnet" the names of been changed to protect the innocent. As those innocent to the real ways of the world still believe it as the literal truth.

Peace, D1st


Ummm... a conspiracy theory... KEWLLL... I love exploring those...
References?
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by JohnR7
Is the Kangaroo a domestic or a wild animal? Because there were only domesticated animals in the Garden of Eden as far as I know.

They can hop pretty far. Maybe they hopped over to australia after the flood.

:eek: :( :D :rolleyes:
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by JohnR7
Is the Kangaroo a domestic or a wild animal? Because there were only domesticated animals in the Garden of Eden as far as I know.

They can hop pretty far. Maybe they hopped over to australia after the flood.

Maybe all the penguins traveled overland as well to the polar regions. :D
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Micaiah
How did the kangaroos and koala bears get to Australia? Some explanations I've heard include continental drift (evidently at a rate faster than is widely accepted at present), and having been separated, their distincive features could result from variation within a kind in an isolated population. It is of interest that the Australian dingo can cross with a domestic dogs and produce fertile young which indicates both have a common ancestor.

Nice theory on continental drift explaining the seperation of specific climate species... however... we've discussed this in another thread. The rate of continental drift you propose would be impossible for numerous reasons. Check out the thread we discussed this in for specifics.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Hector Medina
The Flood is pure fact.
It happened in aprox. 2450 B.C.
There is scientific evidence to back it up like the formation of canyons ,mountains,faultlines,rock layers,mixed and scattered fossils,etc.........

Good sites to go:

www.icr.org
www.creationministries.org
www.creationscience.org
www.answersingenesis.org
www.wordsight.org
www.citizensoldier.org
www.drdino.com

and more......

In Christ,

Hector

Nice sites Hector, but all written with religous bias. Main stream science (non-religious biased) proves otherwise. You can ignore them if you wish, but if your sites TRULY proved them wrong... main stream scientists would be searching Genisis for scientific answers as well. The Bible is a book of History, Poetry, Biographies, Christian morality and ethics. PERIOD. It's NOT a science text, else I'd consult it when calculating the impedance of a cross-country transmission line.

Regards,
Smilin
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by LightBearer
Not only did the Bible tell us that the earth was round but it also informed us that it was floating in space.  All this 3500 years before you were born.

Isa. 40:22: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth."

Job 26:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
 


Yes, I was waiting for this response. Thank you LightBearer. Amazing, though, how the early church disputed this fact... eh? and even used 'other' biblical passages to INSIST the world was flat and the center of the universe.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by LightBearer
Not only did the Bible tell us that the earth was round but it also informed us that it was floating in space.  All this 3500 years before you were born.

Isa. 40:22: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth."

Job 26:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
 

and another thing... you left how the ancients probably viewed this text, versus how some view it today. The ancients took this text to mean the Earth was a flat circle... suspended in the heavens... the center of all the universe. To study the Bible without considering the context/history/culture within which the books were written does not reveal the true meaning of the text.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Micaiah
I understand that many cultures have legends of a big global flood. Some say the Jews simply adapted such stories and used them to form the account of Genesis. The opposite could also be true. The other stories could be variations on the true account given in Genesis.

I disagree. Many ancient cultures have a 'global flood' story... (including the ancient Native Americans. How can you claim the Native American account is a variation of the Genesis account... given they never met a Hebrew scholar??????????
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by notto
There are various structures, artifacts, and evidence throughout the layers that cannot be formed by a short, massive flood that caused all of the layers at once.

Things such as:
Egg nests in large nesting grounds with many seasonal layers
Termite and Ant colonies
Footprints
Root Layers at various levels
Dung that is still in its original location and shape
Animal burrows
Remains of animals that clearly died of something other than a flood and are still in their original resting place with evidence of how they died around them

These cannot be exlained by a flood.

To add to this... petrified rain drops in the lower layers of the Grand Canyon. A flood would have obliterated the sediment. Various other fossils in the upper layers debunk the claim of some YEC cult members that the Grand Canyon is indeed a result of the 'Global Flood'.... when will the brainwashing and lies ever end????????
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by Jerry Smith
No, not Christians, just Young Earth Creationists. 

:D ;)

My new bumper sticker:

Save a young impressionable Christian's mind... shoot a Young Earth Creationist.... ;)
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Originally posted by notto
There are various structures, artifacts, and evidence throughout the layers that cannot be formed by a short, massive flood that caused all of the layers at once.

Things such as:
Egg nests in large nesting grounds with many seasonal layers
Termite and Ant colonies
Footprints
Root Layers at various levels
Dung that is still in its original location and shape
Animal burrows
Remains of animals that clearly died of something other than a flood and are still in their original resting place with evidence of how they died around them

These cannot be exlained by a flood.

I'd like to add to this list those things that do not have a biological origin which cannot be explained by the flood as well. There are geologic structures which falsify the notion that the stratigraphic record is a record of the global flooding event depicted in the Bible. For example: preserved mud cracks, angular unconformities, overturned beds, volcanic ash layers, flood basalts, large-scale cross bedding, etc.

The question I've never seen answered by those who believe the Biblical flood took place on a global scale (one of several) is whether the entire stratigraphic record is a result of the flood or not. If it is representative of such a flood, there are plenty of geologic and biogenic features in the rock record that cannot be explained by such an event. Furthermore, all of the sediments (and other features such as igneous intrusions) are not marine in origin. There are sediments deposited by wind, rivers, glaciers, etc.

If the entire record is not a result of this flood, then why not point out the stratum or sequence of strata that represent the flood and what evidence has been collected that supports that this stratum/sequence of strata was a result of a global flooding event? Furthermore, the dating issue has to be resolved as well. That is to say, this stratum/sequence of strata must have evidence to show that it was deposited somewhere in the neighborhood of ~4000 years before present to be consistent with what appears to be presented as the Biblical model. If this is the case, it should be relatively easy to show considering it would be a feature seen globally at the same stratigraphic level (and thus same date), and in addition, it should be easy to show considering it should have occured relatively very recently in Earth's history and should be well preserved.

Since geologic evidence which falsifies the hypothesis that a global flooding event occurred which created the entire sedimentary record and corresponding fossil record, and since proponents of the hypothesis that the entire record is not a result of the flood cannot provide any evidence of a global flooding event when one should have occurred according to the Biblical model, it's pretty safe to say, in my opinion, that the global flood model is invalid. After all, there isn't even a source for enough water for such an event.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by ocean
 

Goddidit. That settles it. :rolleyes:

For the Christian, it's always "Goddidit". What is at issue here is how "Goddidit".  John is saying that it happened by suspension of the normal laws of physics and the direct intervention.  However, unlike the story of the loaves and fishes, the Noah story has no implication of "miracle". Yahweh is supposed to have used the ordinary processes of opening up the water sources above the dome and the caverns of the deep.  Nor is there any indication that the animals on the Ark were fed by miracle. Noah had enough stored provisions to feed them.  John can't invoke miracle here by the plain meaning of the text.

Of course, for the creationist world-wide flood with all  the species on the Ark, there can't possibly be enough food for  year.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by Micaiah
Oops, I see it now, you think these varves were formed by a constant process over the past 40,000 years and this would wipe out the notion of the earth being created 6000 years ago. I guess this would also impact on the story of the flood. I'm trying to fill in the blanks here.

Well you've got me for the moment. If the layers were formed at a rate of one every year and there are forty thousand layers, then Christians have got a problem.

They don't even have to be formed every year.  The fact that they are regular layers means that they can't have been formed in a flood.  Contrary to Hector Medina, it's the falsifying evidence that really counts. The supporting evidence can be explained by other hypotheses, but a Flood can't explain varves or other rhythmites.

Also, look at the layers of forests in Yellowstone. Forest grows, is killed, new forest, it's killed, new forest, killed, etc.  Fourteen of them in the sediments. Those sediments can't possibly have been formed by a Flood.
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by lucaspa
Of course, for the creationist world-wide flood with all  the species on the Ark, there can't possibly be enough food for  year.

or physical room,,,, given the estimated 100,000 + land species which are present today,

Other considerations, would be sanitary ones of course...

My theory is Noah invented the 'pooper scooper'.... ;)
 
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