No True Christian

elopez

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There has been much perplexity over what a true Christian may be. It also has been said that to claim one is not a true Christian on account of action or disbelief is fallacious and should not be succeeded. In other words, that the No True Scotsman fallacy applies to religion. The fallacy of the No True Scotsman is similar to an attempt to ‘save’ a belief from falsity from discordant data by giving a reason why that data is insufficient, though the reason given is not reasonable other than it functions to ‘save’ the belief. Specifically though, in the case of the No True Scotsman one’s generalization is redefined only to escape the refutation of the generalization. A simple rendition would be as follows:

Kip: All Scotsman like haggis.
Tim: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn’t like haggis.
Kip: Then your uncle is not really a Scotsman.

The universal statement all x are z is meant to exclude those that which x are not z. A counter example that faces the universal claim is not denied and the universal claim is not rejected, so the assertion excludes the example and others that would follow. It just may be the case a Scotsman would dislike haggis because a Scotsman is not absolutely defined, or at least one sole person does not decide who or who not is a Scotsman. There may be no specific prerequisites to being a Scotsman that states they must eat and enjoy haggis. This only implies that when there are certain prerequisites in order to be in a group or organization, it would not be incorrect of us to say they are not true so and so when they act contrary to their groups or organization’s prerequisites. Take for example a case with a vegetarian.

A vegetarian is one who does not intake meat in the slightest. It would be appropriate then to say that one who claims to be vegetarian yet eats meat is not truly vegetarian. That is because vegetarianism has certain prerequisites in order to be adhered to. The same could be said of Christianity.

In order to be considered Christian one must believe that God has created the universe, is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. They must believe that Christ was incarnate of God to save humanity from sin. That Christ was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead just to ascend to be with the Father and will later return. That Adam was the first person and committed the first sin that Christ came to redeem. If one says he is Christian yet disbelieves one of these tenets of Christianity, it would be appropriate to say he is not truly Christian. That should be all well and make sense. Now say that he believes these things including all the other tenets yet acts contrary to Christianity. Say for example he commits murder.

Another main tenet of Christianity is that man is not to murder his fellow man. Essentially this is to say that a Christian would not claim to follow God yet disobey God. More significantly this also means Christianity is about more than merely accepting the doctrines but acting out the sacraments and living as if those doctrines are really true. Of course there is forgiveness and that idea is as detectable as it sounds, but a habitual sinner cannot possibly call himself Christian. This is even made apparent in scripture: “Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person” (1 John 2:4). It is not as if we look at the one who says they are vegetarian while eating meat and conclude they are actually what they say they are, or do we? Of course not. They would be a liar. Yes, no one is sinless from day to day but with God’s aid we can refrain from sin and even then most of us do not commit mortal sins such as murder. Maybe this only means that it is all dependent on the action, or rather the sin. Perhaps it is dependent on our remorse for the sin, or if we even recognizes our misdeeds as sin. Either way, it would not be fallacious of us to call one who claims to be Christian yet doesn’t accept Christian doctrines not a true Christian, just as it wouldn’t be to say the same for one who acts consistently opposed to Christianity. There are such things as no true Christians.
 

OllieFranz

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You compared Christianity to vegetarianism as an example of a group that can be well-defined and thus avoid the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. But there are different levels of vegearianism. What you defined is the most extreme version of vegetarian, aka a vegan. There are vegetarians who allow themselves some dairy products. Yes they contain animal protein, but no animal suffered or died to produce it. And there are those who will eat the occasional egg. Most commercial chicken eggs are unfertilized, so again, no animal died. When you get to those who eat fish, but not red meat or poultry, they have a hard time justifying calling themselves vegetarians. And someone who eats chicken actually can be considered to no true vegetarian.

And i
t's the same with Christianity. The essential point is trust in Jesus' sacrifice for salvation. Acceptance of the Creed is considered the defining characterization, but it is subordinate to acceptance of God's reconciliation.The words of the Bible andthe teachings of the Church are the source of our confidence in the Creed. It is possible to become a Christian without having heard the Creed or read the Bible, bu one cannot grow as a Christian without them.

There are several differen
t formulations of the Creed. Three of those formulations are accepted as official by most Christians: the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. So the exact words of the Creed are not important, just the tenets.


 
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OllieFranz

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Accepting the Salvation wipes away our sin, but it does not erase the effects of a lifetime of sin. Neither does it eliminate temptation. We still are going to sin. Still, one of the promises of the Holy Spirit is that He will dwell within us, teaching us His precepts, and guiding us into a life more pleasing to Him. And we can recognize other Christians by a similar change in their lives. Paul calls these effects in our lives "the Fruit of the Spirit."

T
he apostle Paul also warned us that the Spirit works with each person individually, and some people learn His lessons more slowly than others. Paul tells us to be patient with these "weaker brothers."

And
the Spirit's precepts are not chiseled in cold, hard stone, but they are living principles changing our very hearts. The rigid rules in the Law given to Moses are no longer absolute and binding without compassion. Now the actual needs of others are more important than the rules. "Work" is permissible on the Sabbath when it is to aid someone in need, etc. In fact, it is permissible to skip observing the Sabbath as a day dedicated only to worship, since it is the worship in the heart, not the outward appearances that matter. (Though observing the outward forms can help focus the mind, so there are good reasons to continue them, if they help in your Christian growth.)

And jus
t as we are not to put down the "weaker brother," we are not to assume that someone exercising their freedom from the niggling outward details of the Old Law is ignoring the living Law written in the heart. If he eats meat which was not butchered by a sochet (a kosher butcher), or even meat sold in a butcher that re-sells surplus animals brought to a pagan temple for sacrifice, that does not mean that he is in rebellion against the teachings of the Holy Spirit. As long as he exhibits some Fruit, we are to accept him as a brother in Christ.

[Paul speaks of
this in several of his letters, but he spells it out most clearly and completely in Romans 14.]
 
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elopez

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You compared Christianity to vegetarianism as an example of a group that can be well-defined and thus avoid the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. But there are different levels of vegearianism. What you defined is the most extreme version of vegetarian, aka a vegan.

Yes, I made that comparison to show that both were groups with sets of tenets to be accepted in ordered to be considered a vegetarian or Christian. A vegan is someone who not only is on diet from animal products but doesn't wear any cloths made from animals, wear make up that is made from sort of animal part, etc. Being a vegan is more of a lifestyle than it is just a diet, while what I described by one who is just eating meat could be considered a vegetarian.

There are vegetarians who allow themselves some dairy products. Yes they contain animal protein, but no animal suffered or died to produce it. And there are those who will eat the occasional egg. Most commercial chicken eggs are unfertilized, so again, no animal died. When you get to those who eat fish, but not red meat or poultry, they have a hard time justifying calling themselves vegetarians. And someone who eats chicken actually can be considered to no true vegetarian.

I think it would be the vegan who abstains from all the dairy products, eggs, and the vegetarian that would find it okay. But yes, as I was saying, when one claims to be vegetarian yet is eating steak for example, he is not a true vegetarian.

And it's the same with Christianity. The essential point is trust in Jesus' sacrifice for salvation.

Its the same with Christianity in that there are such things as no true Christians? Those who do not trust in Christs' sacrifice?
 
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99percentatheism

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No True Christian believes that Jesus is not the Christ. And there are many other things that disqualifies a person from being a Christian by what they believe and do.

The No True Scotsman trickery does not work with the Gospel.

In fact no one is a "true Christian" at birth. It takes birth number two for that.
 
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JRSut1000

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Even using the example of growing by using the Creed, I have to differ there. This furthers the point that there really is so much diversity within those who claim Christ(ian) name.

There are the more liberal Christians, and then theres the other spectrum like the Amish or even MJs. Even within denominations you have a wide variety. There are 'Sunday' Catholics who are not extremely 'practicing' and then there's the traditional Catholic St Pious X who are ultra conservative.

Is there one denomination that is 'true blue' and one that is not? Or does it vary more by individual? I could try to answer that, but does it really matter what I think?
 
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Freedom63

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No True Christian believes that Jesus is not the Christ. And there are many other things that disqualifies a person from being a Christian by what they believe and do.

I accept your first statement here. But I see your second as pure nonsense. I am sure you believe you know what all beliefs and actions disqualifies a person from being a true Christian as you have been declaring them with reckless abandon all over the forum. :doh:
 
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JRSut1000

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Hey, lets not make things personal please!

Don't we all have things we think could potentially disqualify those who use the title 'Christian'? I think about this a lot, even for my own life. One has to be able to ask the tough questions, even if it's just rhetorically for their own understanding.
 
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Freedom63

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Hey, lets not make things personal please!

Don't we all have things we think could potentially disqualify those who use the title 'Christian'? I think about this a lot, even for my own life. One has to be able to ask the tough questions, even if it's just rhetorically for their own understanding.

There is a HUGE difference between rhetorically discussing what constitutes the Christian faith...and openly and repeatedly telling others you may be debating that they are not true Christians.

THAT is what it means to make "things personal".
 
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JRSut1000

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I have not seen his other posts, though if I truly believed someone was in error and in danger concerning their soul, I'd point it out.

Just another diversity within Christianity - some use 'judge not [ever!]' while others believe in james 5:19 (if a brother turns from the truth, bring him back!)
 
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Freedom63

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I have not seen his other posts, though if I truly believed someone was in error and in danger concerning their soul, I'd point it out.

Just another diversity within Christianity - some use 'judge not [ever!]' while others believe in james 5:19 (if a brother turns from the truth, bring him back!)

This is a discussion forum expressly for discussing various Christian views in a safe environment. As such it is against forum rules to question the validity of another poster's declaration of faith. Legalists always believe those who disagree with them are in danger concerning their soul. This is no place for accusatory rhetoric.
 
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katautumn

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Legalists always believe those who disagree with them are in danger concerning their soul.

That's not legalism. Legalism is extra-biblical teaching. Claiming that something that isn't in the Bible is a salvation issue, like baptism being a prerequisite to acquiring salvation or that a woman who doesn't wear a head covering isn't really a Christian. People who claim Gentiles must follow the Mosaic Law. That's legalism. Simply saying if someone doesn't believe the basic fundamentals of salvation, as prescribed in the New Testament, then they aren't saved isn't being legalistic. It's common sense. It's when people try and claim you must believe something other than what Romans says you must believe in order to get to heaven that it becomes an issue.
 
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Freedom63

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That's not legalism. Legalism is extra-biblical teaching. Claiming that something that isn't in the Bible is a salvation issue, like baptism being a prerequisite to acquiring salvation or that a woman who doesn't wear a head covering isn't really a Christian. People who claim Gentiles must follow the Mosaic Law. That's legalism. Simply saying if someone doesn't believe the basic fundamentals of salvation, as prescribed in the New Testament, then they aren't saved isn't being legalistic. It's common sense. It's when people try and claim you must believe something other than what Romans says you must believe in order to get to heaven that it becomes an issue.

You infer I am opposed to Romans pertaining to salvation? :doh:

Of course not. I am specifically referring to beliefs that are clearly debated by Christians such as law verses grace or certain freedoms some claim we do not have and others embrace. This is most definitely legalism.
 
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elopez

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Even using the example of growing by using the Creed, I have to differ there. This furthers the point that there really is so much diversity within those who claim Christ(ian) name.
It's not simply about claiming to be Christian or what one thinks is Christian. It's also about acting in accordance with those beliefs. How could a hypocrite actually be what he claims to be?

There are the more liberal Christians, and then theres the other spectrum like the Amish or even MJs. Even within denominations you have a wide variety. There are 'Sunday' Catholics who are not extremely 'practicing' and then there's the traditional Catholic St Pious X who are ultra conservative.
Even with all the wide variety of sects within Christianity all of them have relevant similarities that constitute them as all Christians with unified beliefs. For example a liberal Christian and a "Sunday Catholic" (what is that even?) would still believe in one eternal God, whom sent His Son Christ to earth to redeem mankind.

Now, if you go back to my point about simply claiming to be Christian based on beliefs, and if one claims to be Christian yet for instance also claims to not believe in Christ's redemption of one eternal God, then would you call him Christian? This supports the point that Christianity has a set of beliefs to be adhered to in order to be considered such.

Is there one denomination that is 'true blue' and one that is not? Or does it vary more by individual? I could try to answer that, but does it really matter what I think?
Maybe. I believe there are many false religions, but then again I think each even if they are false have some truth and at least something to take from it. Individuals cannot speak for the whole of a religion. And why would it not matter what you think?
 
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hedrick

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The problem with the no true Scotsman analysis is that it assumes we're dealing with logic. But human language isn't quite so rigid. We can say "no true Christian would ...", while still admitting that Christians do in fact do it. Indeed Paul says we all sin. The simplest answer is that no one is yet fully Christian. The closest passage to this is probably 1 Cor 6:9-11. He says no wrongdoer will inherit the kingdom. Do you really think Paul believes all of his church members never do wrong? I'd say rather that God isn't finished with any of us yet. He is absolutely right to point out that God demands perfection, but that has to coexist with the realization that it isn't here yet. People misread both Paul and Jesus if they take the list in 6:9-10 and say "ah, my sin isn't on that list, so I'm OK. I can inherit the kingdom." This is a point that Paul explicit makes in Rom 2:3 after the somewhat longer list in 1:29-31. But in 2:4 he notes that while no one can claim to be perfect, God is expecting that his forbearance will eventually lead us to repentance.

So there's no way to avoid the tension. It's true that no Christian will .. and people who ... won't inherit that kingdom. Yet, we are all still in the process of getting there, and God is forgiving. We can't afford to give up either the demand for righteousness or the loving forgiveness of those who fail.
 
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99percentatheism

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I accept your first statement here.

Mmm Hmm.

But I see your second as pure nonsense. I am sure you believe you know what all beliefs and actions disqualifies a person from being a true Christian as you have been declaring them with reckless abandon all over the forum.

There's a big difference in yoking oneself with unbelievers and being an unbeliever. But, in both cases, a true Christian would never allow either the badly yoked Christian or the unbeliever any influence over Christian matters. That is what I point out. Nothing more and nothing less. As Jesus taught it. Jesus was more than clear that pointing out error to those that promote it won't bring you lots of dates and invites to club parties. I notice how well the atheists and the liberal and progressive get along here. So well in fact, that if there were no defining icons, it would be hard to tell them apart. But the True Christians? They shine threw even in the darkness of internet interactions.

Political correctness, the biggest bullying tactic of all time.
 
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99percentatheism

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The problem with the no true Scotsman analysis is that it assumes we're dealing with logic. But human language isn't quite so rigid. We can say "no true Christian would ...", while still admitting that Christians do in fact do it. Indeed Paul says we all sin. The simplest answer is that no one is yet fully Christian. The closest passage to this is probably 1 Cor 6:9-11. He says no wrongdoer will inherit the kingdom. Do you really think Paul believes all of his church members never do wrong? I'd say rather that God isn't finished with any of us yet. He is absolutely right to point out that God demands perfection, but that has to coexist with the realization that it isn't here yet. People misread both Paul and Jesus if they take the list in 6:9-10 and say "ah, my sin isn't on that list, so I'm OK. I can inherit the kingdom." This is a point that Paul explicit makes in Rom 2:3 after the somewhat longer list in 1:29-31. But in 2:4 he notes that while no one can claim to be perfect, God is expecting that his forbearance will eventually lead us to repentance.

So there's no way to avoid the tension. It's true that no Christian will .. and people who ... won't inherit that kingdom. Yet, we are all still in the process of getting there, and God is forgiving. We can't afford to give up either the demand for righteousness or the loving forgiveness of those who fail.

There are certainly Christians who are not Christians.

Look at the teaching here:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

For certain individuals (whose condemnation was written aboutlong ago), have secretly slipped in among you.

They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

- Jude
And Jude goes on to further define these people as being among the believers (pretending to be Christians) but only being bad to the core:

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

- Jude

How judgmental of Jude don't you think? How politically incorrect. God help him if he were to write those words today in a western city. He'd be sued or stopped by a city ordinance.
 
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hedrick

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I am not suggesting that Christianity is license. I'm suggesting that God has mercy on those who fall. We need to hear both God's demand for righteousness, and Jesus' statement that God will forgive 7x70 times.

Jude says this as well. He condemns the ungodly teachers who follow their natural instincts rather than the Spirit. I believe it's clear from Christian history that man's natural instincts lead to Phariseeism at least as often as moral license. And frankly, the Phariseeism is probably more dangerous to the Church than sins. In v 22, while the underlying text is quite uncertain, it is at least clear that he commends mercy. If you are using Jude to reject Jesus' message that God forgives, I have to say that I don't think this is something Jude would agree with.

Remember that Jesus' position on this issue was sufficiently well-known that he was crucified as someone who rejected the Law.
 
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