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No Sexual Ethic - Postmodernity's Chickens Come Home to Roost

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Tree of Life, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    Do you think that God's Law as expressed in the 10 commandments is platonic? Luther didn't think so.

    Do you think that the Bible is found wanting?

    So you think that the US is doing fine on the sexual morality front?
     
  2. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    So is consent the only principle? If consent between adults is present then anything else goes?
     
  3. Cearbhall

    Cearbhall Unitarian Universalist

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    At what level? Federal law? Company policy? Church community? Family rules?
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    Ethics.
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    No. But we disagree on the importance of the third use of the law, of course.

    Fruit picking is a dangerous business indeed as it's a thorny matter, there's potentially as much blood on your hands as good fruit you will find. Better to let the wheat and tares alone until the harvest.

    Better than in the past but there's always room for improvement.
     
  6. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    So you think that Christians ought not to make moral judgements?

    How do you know, since you cannot use the Law of God as a guide?
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    As much as possible, no. I actually think the commandments are a good guide to this, as one of them we interpret to say that we should seek to put the best construction possible on our neighbors behavior. I believe that should urge us to curtail our judgments a great deal.

    I use the law of love, the law on which all the others depends, looking for the benefit for my neighbor. And I know the benefit to my neighbor by actually knowing my neighbor. Hence my koinonia reference. That means hanging out with the prostitutes and tax collectors, and all sorts of potentially unsavory types that make us uncomfortable.
     
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  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    This is going to sound bizarre but I think you will learn more about sexual ethics from a prostitute than from a celibate priest. The ethics of an activity has to be worked out by people that actually engage in that activity. There is no substitute for experience.
     
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  9. Cearbhall

    Cearbhall Unitarian Universalist

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    I was going to say that the BDSM community seems to have the best grasp of it of anyone, but I wasn't sure what topics were safe to mention.
     
  10. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

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    Fair enough. I´ll keep in mind that´s one of the devices you use to make a point.



    If that´s all you wanted to say, it might have been a good idea to leave it at that in your OP - whereas actually it sounded a lot like you wanted to make a point about "Biblical ethics".
    Interestingly, you are trying to are basing your idea that there is no such coherent agreed upon sexual ethics on the observation that "everyone is up in arms about sexual misconduct" (i.e. that there actually does exist such a broadly agreed upon sexual ethics).
    So what´s left of your OP then: The current broadly agreed upon sexual ethics isn´t to your liking. You would like it to be more strict and/or more lenient (in other cases).
    The basis has been mentioned several times. However, I understand that for someone who thinks that only the bible can be a valid standard, a non-biblical standard appears to be no standard at all.
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    It means there is and has always been sexual ethics outside of Christian definition.

    Christian ethics are for Christians, not for non-Christians. Romans 6 tells why.
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    This is actually more biblical, BTW. The Jews never thought of justice as something that existed abstractly, divorced form any particular action, it was more of a verb. Doing justice in this world involves more than sitting above things and judging the objective rightness or wrongness of something: it involves doing. And we find ourselves right from the start, in the midst of things with our own particular perspective on what the good is.

    Again, if we want to do justice there is no substitute for koinonia , which will involve encountering other people and their perspectives on the Good.
     
  13. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Well, it's gotten pretty loose in the last couple of years, starting, apparently, with accusations against Bill Cosby.

    Most lately, Garrison Keillor, whose ties with NPR were severed when he was accused of sexual harassment of a coworker.

    “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.”
     
  14. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    Justice is found in God's law, and knowledge of it exist in our hearts, whether it is in written form or not. In Plato, he appealed to the Good, but didn't necessarily mean God. The key difference is noted in Gilson's God and Philosophy as "He who is" (Christianity) versus "that which is" (Greek philosophy).

    The problem (I think) Kreeft is critiquing in modern law is that justice only exist when someone interacts with it. Outside of that, there is no standard of justice, Platonic or Christian.
     
  15. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    The ethic is that everything is cool, I'm okay, you're okay..... until you are not, or I am not.
    What behavior is permitted is purely subjective, consent itself is fickle, and the tide of public opinion changes with the phases of the moon. Yesterday's hero is todays cad. In the Middle Ages they dug corpses out of the crime to convict them in courts post-mortem.
    Soon enough, the rotting corpse of Ted Kennedy will be put on such a trial too. Winds of change are already giving us a whiff.

    That is the post-modernist teaching on sexuality. The court of public opinion is judge, jury and executioner, and whoever tells the latest narrative controls the court.
     
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  16. KCfromNC

    KCfromNC Regular Member

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    A good step forward would be for you to unquestioningly accept my views on morality. That will at least get rid of one disagreement. Seems like it would be a good first step if you're really interested in a coherent, agreed upon ethic.
     
  17. KCfromNC

    KCfromNC Regular Member

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    If this is really your reasoning it seems that you'd get a lot more bang for the buck by fighting to outlaw divorce. And yet for some reason you don't - you focus on gay couples instead.
     
  18. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Tree of life,

    Still waiting for an answer to post 36.
     
  19. Desk trauma

    Desk trauma Atheist Capitalist

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    As someone involved in that community I find the way that consent is spoken of by some vanilla folks horrifying. The incident that always comes to mind is Dr Ruth saying that once sex starts it’s too late to withdraw consent and unreasonable to do so. Us dirty perverts have worked out how to withdraw and maintain consent is much more intense situations that heavy petting yet its unreasonable for vanillas to accept that no means no at any point in the act?
     
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  20. Desk trauma

    Desk trauma Atheist Capitalist

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    And IVF, sperm donation, adoption...
     
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