No Russian collusion

[Albion]

Did I say that in that post? No.

Very well. Then what was the point of the comment? Obama spoke with Putin. Bush spoke with Putin. All sorts of American leaders have spoken with Putin (and most of the other heads of state that we do not see eye-to-eye with). Obama even sent Secretary of State Hillary to the Russians to ask for their forgiveness.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Very well. Then what was the point of the comment? Obama spoke with Putin. Bush spoke with Putin. All sorts of American leaders have spoken with Putin (and most of the other heads of state that we do not see eye-to-eye with). Obama even sent Secretary of State Hillary to the Russians to ask for their forgiveness.

But Obama and Bush did not try to keep it from the media. Trump has spoken to Putin about 8 times and we only know it happened from Russian media.

 

[Albion]

But Obama and Bush did not try to keep it from the media. Trump has spoken to Putin about 8 times and we only know it happened from Russian media.

So, now the complaint has switched from being about something supposedly sinister in the President talking to the head of state of another country to...the media didn't cover it??

Quite a shocker, that is. Every last action taken by the president is supposed to be reported in the daily news. Since when!?

 

[FreeinChrist]

I listen to what the heads of the Intelligence Agencies say. Now, the only person who is saying what you say is Donald Trump and his talking heads.

Now, you show that you cannot provide any proof of what you claim. I don't know exactly what the investigation has proof of and neither do you or Trump. Mueller has shown that he is very methodical and keeps a kid on things until it is time to reveal any indictments.

Beyond any doubt, there is fake news coming out of the left but the same is true of the right. The Fox News political pundits, Info Wars, Rush Limbaugh, Breitbart News, etc. .. are horrible places for facts. Stay away from them. Listen to your local news. You will be better informed.

Yes, the heads of the CIA (Pompeo), FBI (Wray), and the National Intelligence Director (Coats) all agree that Russia interfered in the 2016 election and are now for the 2018 election. National Security Advisor H.R. McMasters says Russian interference in the 2016 election was incontrovertible. Yet, for months and months, we heard "there was no interference, it is a hoax" from Trump and his supporters.
For months we heard there were no contacts between the Russians and the Trump campaign and then things started turning up. There were lots of contacts.

And now former Trump campaign manager has criminal charges, Papadopoulos has a plea deal, Flynn is cooperating and had plead guilty, and it looks like Gates is working on a plea deal. All from the Trump campaign.

It is foolish to think that this last thing, the 13 indictments of Russians, is the end and clears the Trump campaign. That indictment was about those Russians.

 

[FreeinChrist]

So, now the complaint has switched from being about something supposedly sinister in the President talking to the head of state of another country to...the media didn't cover it??

Quite a shocker, that is. Every last action taken by the president is supposed to be reported in the daily news. Since when!?

When it involves Russia, he needs to be more transparent. His team have had a number of secret meetings which they initially denied and denied.

 

[Albion]

When it involves Russia, he needs to be more transparent.

So, it's just a personal opinion.

 

[FreeinChrist]

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thom...-russian-2018-attack-which-trump-still-denies

"Frankly, the United States is under attack," Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats told the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday.

Actually, that only barely qualifies as news as it's not really, well, new; it both makes intuitive sense and has been previously hinted at and reported (see Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, just last week). OK, it may come as a surprise to the one person best positioned to do something about it, but President Donald Trump has steadfastly refused to acknowledge the threat, let alone lift so much as a finger to stop it.

"With respect to Russian influence efforts, let me be clear: The Russians utilize this tool because it's relatively cheap, it's low risk, it offers what they perceive as plausible deniability and it's proven to be effective at sowing division," Coats said. "We expect Russia to continue using propaganda, social media, false-flag personas, sympathetic spokesmen and other means to influence to try to build on its wide range of operations and exacerbate social and political fissures in the United States. There should be no doubt that Russia perceived ... its past efforts as successful and views the 2018 U.S. midterm elections as a potential target for Russian influence operations."

​

Trump repeatedly claimed it was a hoax. It wasn't.
Trump does not criticize Russia, and this am, tweeted out against McMasters and other Americans, not Russia.
Trump did not respond to the 13 counts against Russians in terms of how it affects the country but only of himself.
Trump's team denied and denied contacts with Russians that later came out.
Trump is not enforcing the sanctions that congress passed and is law. The current sanctions are not deterring the Russians as Wray, Pompeo, and Coats and Tillerson have said.
Former Trump campaign and administration members are now under criminal charges. Flynn, in particular, talked to the Russians about sanctions.

So yes, when it comes to having secret conversations with Putin when Trump is seemingly kowtowing to Putin, it needs to be more transparent.

 

[Albion]

Yes, the heads of the CIA (Pompeo), FBI (Wray), and the National Intelligence Director (Coats) all agree that Russia interfered in the 2016 election and are now for the 2018 election. .

But John Kerry, the Obama Secretary of State, approved their entrance into the country...and their activities began and went on during the Obama administration. How anyone looking at this activity can simply shift dates around like this is stunning.

 

[Yarddog]

Very well. Then what was the point of the comment?

I was replying directly to Bob's statement that there was NO connection between Putin and Trump, which was not correct.

 

[Albion]

I was replying directly to Bob's statement that there was NO connection between Putin and Trump, which was not correct.

But in that post, you were replying to something Bob had written and which you quoted in your response--

What fake news? Mueller is still investigating exactly how far Russia went and how deep this may go. The term collusion doesn't necessarily mean something illegal occurred. Secret cooperation is also collusion and that did occur....

You can see how I thought what I did.

 

[Yarddog]

But in that post, you were replying to something Bob had written and which you quoted in your response--



You can see how I thought what I did.

I understand how you would want clarity and that is why I gave you some. I haven't insinuated that Trump or his campaign did anything illegal but there were connections between Russia and his campaign. That is fact. What we don't know is how much of a connection there was or if any of it was illegal.

People should wait for the investigation to carry out its mission before making unfounded claims such as Trump and Democrats continue to do.

 

[Albion]

I understand how you would want clarity and that is why I gave you some. I haven't insinuated that Trump or his campaign did anything illegal

And I did not raise any question about that.

but there were connections between Russia and his campaign. That is fact. What we don't know is how much of a connection there was or if any of it was illegal. .

It was the matter of "collusion" that I questioned. You wrote in post #7 that there actually was collusion (and also "secret cooperation").

Secret cooperation is also collusion and that did occur...

 

[Yarddog]

And I did not raise any question about that.


It was the matter of "collusion" that I questioned. You wrote that there actually was collusion, not just some sort of "connection."

There was some collusion. Collusion doesn't mean that it was illegal. Campaign members met with Russians looking for dirt on Clinton. That is fact. We just do not know all of the facts, yet.
Trump called on Russia to hack Clinton and find the e-mails. Was this illegal? We won't know this until the investigation reveals just what Trump actually knew at the time.

 

[Albion]

There was some collusion. Collusion doesn't mean that it was illegal. Campaign members met with Russians looking for dirt on Clinton. That is fact.

I know that it is not illegal for one head of state to speak to any other--they all do it--and also that it is not "secret cooperation" or "collusion" for them to do so.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Should be some apologies rolling in yet I have not heard one. Why? Because that's the way in which they roll right in there with the fake news.

So now for the big question what will be the new fake news story.

M-Bob

Shortly after Obama was elected president in '08, many conservatives were unhappy and tried to rationalize Obama's victory by saying he wasn't born in the US and therefore couldn't be president. As a conservative, I thought there was nothing to these so-called birther conspiracies and believed that focusing on it was counter-productive. Eventually, Obama released his birth certificate on live television and put these conspiracies to rest. Donald Trump, who was a major proponent of the Obama birth conspiracy, was in the audience during the birth certificate release and probably felt humiliated.

Likewise, there are many unhappy liberals who resent Trump's victory. They say he can't be a legitimate president because of a supposed collusion between Russia and Trump on his campaign. But now the truth is out, and no evidence of a conspiracy is found. There must be a lot of embarrassed liberals now.

 

[Albion]

Shortly after Obama was elected president in '08, many conservatives were unhappy and tried to rationalize Obama's victory by saying he wasn't born in the US and therefore couldn't be president. As a conservative, I thought there was nothing to these so-called birther conspiracies and believed that focusing on it was counter-productive. Eventually, Obama released his birth certificate on live television and put these conspiracies to rest. Donald Trump, who was a major proponent of the Obama birth conspiracy, was in the audience during the birth certificate release and probably felt humiliated..

It's more likely that he considered the document that it took Obama a lifetime to come up with to be a forgery, since other people had shown various reasons for thinking that it was such; but Trump realized that he wasn't going to win the argument regardless and so gave it up with as much grace as was then possible.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

People seem to forget that Donald Trump was an international businessman that obviously enjoyed traveling considering he own his own private jet. He also has a history of enjoying mingling with the rich and famous so why is it so surprising he would visit or have dinner with the rich and famous in Russia? And why would it be surprising if him and or his people were attempting to dig up dirt on Hilary and or the previous administration considering the publically known relations between US and Russia..."reset button" anyone? Digging up dirt is not illegal last I knew, maybe I am wrong since I am not a legal expert.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

It's more likely that he considered the document that it took Obama a lifetime to come up with to be a forgery, since other people had shown various reasons for thinking that it was such; but Trump realized that he wasn't going to win the argument regardless and so gave it up with as much grace as was then possible.

It has taken over a year since Trump was president to put these Russian collusion conspiracies to rest. The length of time it took to happen doesn't imply there's a forgery within the FBI on the lack of evidence for Trump's so-called collusion with Russia. Likewise, Obama holding out for a long time to release his birth certificate doesn't imply he was making a forgery during that time. Besides, how long would it take to forge a birth certificate? An hour or two? The reason why Obama took forever to release his birth certificate is probably because he didn't think there was any merit to the birther conspiracies and simply dismissed them as ridiculous and not worth his time.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

What I want to know is the legal justification for spying on our president and his team, when there is no actual evidence of illegal activity. The infamous Steele dossier?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

You can provide absolutely no proof of this.

You know, I realized a long time ago that Atheists are right in that you cannot disprove a negative, as in disprove the existence of ____________(insert any fictional character, invisible pink unicorn, flying spaghetti monster, Zeus, Thor, whatever). I also realized the burden of proof is not on them to disprove.

 

[Yarddog]

I know that it is not illegal for one head of state to speak to any other--they all do it--and also that it is not "secret cooperation" or "collusion" for them to do so.

Well, Trump wasn't head of state when the issues occurred but even heads of state can participate in collusion or secret cooperation which could be illegal, depending on what was shared.