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No rapture removes us from the earth

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sdowney717, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Conclusive Scriptural and historical evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24 and parallel prophecies in the generation immediately following Christ's discourse.

    DECEIVERS

    Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

    Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

    Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

    Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

    According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

    An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

    Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

    Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

    WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

    Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

    Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

    Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

    We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

    Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

    In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

    Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

    But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

    Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

    FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

    Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

    Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

    Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

    The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

    Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

    Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

    During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

    Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

    PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

    Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

    Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

    Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

    The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

    The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

    Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

    Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

    In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

    In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

    Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

    Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

    The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

    GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

    It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

    On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

    Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

    Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

    The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

    Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

    By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

    By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


    Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The "wailing wall" is part of the remains of Roman Fort Antonia.

    According to the Jewish historian Josephus, it was built near the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city during the time of Christ.

    During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

    The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts of that time period.

    See the link below.


    The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

    Either Jesus was wrong or you are wrong.

    .
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that just as the highly detailed Tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, so the Tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal, 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    *******

    Note that just because wars occurred in the first century AD after Jesus Christ spoke Matthew 24:6 does not make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6 any more than just because much worse wars occurred in the 20th century does not make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6.

    Matthew 24:3 . . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Here the original Greek word (G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

    It is sometimes claimed that the end of the age refers to the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus Christ died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that He brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles of the Church asked Jesus Christ about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), He didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd Jewish temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, or even at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at Jesus' post-tribulation, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell His apostles other things during His ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all non-Christians of all times will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

    Read Mark 13:9-13 as possibly applicable to you as a Biblical Christian. For in our future, "political correctness" could make even Biblical Christianity "hate speech", because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christianity is the only way to be saved (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Be prepared to be arrested and tried before courts of law for the violation of "hate speech" laws which could be instituted in our future (by the Supreme Court, without any approval from the People in Congress). If you are brought to trial, remember Mark 13:9-13, and testify as God's Holy Spirit gives you at that time. But don't expect to be set free after your testimony. You (just as I) must be willing to face imprisonment and even execution for the truths of Jesus Christ and His Word the Holy Bible (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 8:34-38, John 8:31b).
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it isn't, because the fort was just beyond the northwest corner of the Temple Mount. (See the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine.)

    Note that both Jesus and (post-tribulation) Christian Futurism can be correct.

    On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

    Preterism says that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven, before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says that the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the Tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

    But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation, because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

    Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12). And their physical death will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7), in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39), at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The choice:

    Eighteen centuries of historical prophetic wisdom and insight by acclaimed scholars of the Word,
    or
    A few years of modernized futurized hypothesizing.


    Very easy choice for me and all serious students of the prophetic Word.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    What is happening today, is finally God is lifting His veil of mis-understanding about the prophesies.
    Daniel 12:9-10 clearly states: that the prophesies are to be kept secret until the time of the end and even then, only a few will understand.
    We pray, with an open mind, to be among the 'few'.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are in the time of the end, and have been since Christ established His New Will and Testament in His Blood.

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

    In recognition of which, Peter declared:

    2 Peter 1:19
    19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Peter knew of no secrets.

    Futurism seeks to replace the more sure word of prophecy of these New Testament last days with the speculation, conjecture, presumption, theory, and error of private interpretation.

    It is futile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  8. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Jesus in Luke 21 (same as Matthew 24) explains more clearly this timeline of the end.

    'Note v35, For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.'

    v20 - 24 are done, Jerusalem is trampled under foot by the gentiles right now. v25 and forward is futurism.

    The Destruction of Jerusalem

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    The Coming of the Son of Man
    25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

    The Parable of the Fig Tree
    29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

    The Importance of Watching
    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are in agreement with essentially all of the historical scholars that I cited.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But not with the truth of Bible prophecy.
    Daniel 12:9-10 is clear: only in the last days, will anyone understand God's plans for His people.
    This means that the ECF's, the Commentators, Isaac Newton, the historical scholars, ALL those who have come up with their interpretation of end time events; have got it wrong.

    God has given us, thru His prophets, all we need to know about what must happen before Jesus Returns. It is; it must be possible to understand and the problem of mis-understanding lies in how people have flocked to false teachers and believed their lies. Just as Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. And the last days began almost 2000 years ago.

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Hebrews 1:1-2 When in times past God spoke to our forefathers, He spoke in many and varied ways thru His Prophets. But in this, the final age, He has spoken to us thru His Son.....

    Paul knew that the Christian age was to be the final one for mankinds rule. He did not say or mean, that they were then in the final stage of this age. Plainly proved by how nearly 2000 years have passed and we still await its end.
    Jesus Himself prophesies the 2000 years, Luke 13:32, confirmed by Hosea 6:2. [A day to God is a 1000 years to us]
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment. Similarly, even the Tribulation as it is described in Matthew 24 cannot have happened yet, because Jesus' Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the "last days" began in the first century AD, with Jesus Christ's first coming (Hebrews 1:2), and the Holy Spirit's pouring-out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last three, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8), of the seven, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC, to the future end of the present earth, and the creation of the New Earth (Revelation 21:1), in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming, to sometime after the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6), which Millennium will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Regarding Daniel 12:9, note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that the book of Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus Christ's 1st coming and His crucifixion for our sins.

    So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of the books of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which the prophet Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't yet been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the Church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the future Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

    That's right.

    Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus Christ has told Christians everything that they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that is coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).

    The main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the Tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13), or deceived, by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I haven't investigated our cited brethren's views of Revelation. I cast my lot with their views of Matthew 24, as representative of 18 centuries of true Church scholarship.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    If you call the 'scholarship' of all the ECF's and all the people you care to name who have postulated on the Prophetic Word; true scholarship, then please tell me why there is so much dissention and controversy among all of them.
    Daniel 12:9-10 is undeniable: no-one will know the truth until just before the end and then only a few.
    With your attitude, obviously you don't even want to be one of them.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What dissension and controversy is there amongst the brethren that I cited?
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    JW's, LDS's, etc. have been known to make similar claims.
    But in reality, their claims pale into insignificance beside those of futurists.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Daniel 12:9-10 is the reality: NO-ONE will understand until the last days.
    Yes; about Bible prophecy; all the tons of paper and ink used on Commentaries, books and now the internet are all just so much rubbish. But we DO have a future and for those who know the Prophetic Word, it will not all come as a surprise.

    Isaiah 56:9-12 All you beasts of the open country and the forest, come and eat your fill. For all of Israel’s watchmen are blind, perceiving nothing, they are all as dumb dogs that cannot bark, dreaming and sleeping. They are like greedy dogs that can never be satisfied, they are shepherds unable to understand the truth, as they go their own way. They say: Come let us fetch wine, strong drink and we will swill it down. The future will be the same as today or better still!

    Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. Be drunk, but not with wine, for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed the prophetic vision and sealed the means of discerning the future to you.

    Jeremiah 14:11-13 The Lord said to me: Do not pray for the wellbeing of this people. Though they fast and worship Me, [but not in spirit and in truth] I shall not listen to their cry on the Day of My punishment. But Lord – their leaders and pastors say to them: you will not face the terrible sword of judgement and they preach prosperity and escape from tribulation.

    Jeremiah 14:14-16 The Lord answered me: These are lies that your leaders are misleading the people with. I have not sent them, I have not given them My commission, or spoken to them. They are giving out false teachings, useless advice and their own foolish daydreams.

    Therefore, I say about those teachers and pastors who speak falsely in My Name, they will meet their end in My Day of wrath, I shall pour down upon them the disaster they deserve.

    2 Timothy 4:3-4 The time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will go after their own desires and will only listen to teachers who give pleasant and easy outcomes. People will refuse to listen to true scriptural teaching. They will only believe fables and fanciful notions. 1 Timothy 1:7 Ref: REB.


    Beasts of the field’, foreigners, non Israelites. Those who have ‘encroached onto the holy Land’. Jeremiah 12:14

    Israel’s watchmen perceive nothing’, the veil that hides the true knowledge of God’s Word is upon them, because of false beliefs. Deuteronomy 29:4

    If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused’, Even when the truth is presented to people who think they have it all sorted, they just cannot see it. Jeremiah 6:10

    They preach prosperity, the prosperity theology that gives a sense of false security and escape from tribulation’, The very wrong and pretentious idea of a pre tribulation rapture, that lulls people into thinking they need do nothing.

    ‘People will refuse to listen to true scriptural teaching’, 2 Peter 2:1-3

    But for those who make the effort to overcome the false teachings, the fictional books that proliferate on the book stalls and all the rubbish on the internet, there is hope: Psalms 78:1-8, Isaiah 55:1-3, Psalms 25:8-9, Psalms 27:11-12, Psalms 32:8, 2 Peter 1:19
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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