No one has been able to answer this yet...

[ml5363]

He had not ascended yet to put blood atonement on mercy seat...He see Thomas after returning back from there

 

[Radagast]

He had not ascended yet to put blood atonement on mercy seat...He see Thomas after returning back from there

That's a lot of theological error to pack into 20 words.

And remember that you and I are both guests of the Orthodox Church here in T.A.W.

 

[Ronald]

no, a wage is something desired and earned.

and you gotta read the whole Psalm.

aaaannndddd, to say that He was separated from the Father one time is to say that He and the Father changed, as they went from being unseparated to separated to unseparated. Scripture says clearly that God does not change. so either the Scripture is wrong or you are.

and of course the Father didn't suffer. no one has said that.

Again, Jesus said the Father had forsaken (abandoned, deserted) Him and that He was far from Him. He was one with the Father spiritually, but Jesus was also a man and this part of Him was separated.
You can easily state that if Jesus was separate from the Father, they changed. Agreed, spiritually. But aren't you are implying that Jesus, being "one" with the Father and if they weren't separated for that time also means that the Father died and suffered too? See, you won't accept that, but doesn't that leave us with the Father being one with His death, suffering and resurrection? The Father was not the sacrificial lamb, He sent Jesus to do that work. He did not do that work and therefore was spiritually connected, knowing all, but separate from the pain, suffering, the sin, the death and resurrection. Sorry, can't see it any other way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Again, Jesus said the Father had forsaken (abandoned, deserted) Him and that He was far from Him. He was one with the Father spiritually, but Jesus was also a man and this part of Him was separated.
You can easily state that if Jesus was separate from the Father, they changed. Agreed, spiritually. But aren't you are implying that Jesus, being "one" with the Father and if they weren't separated for that time also means that the Father died and suffered too? See, you won't accept that, but doesn't that leave us with the Father being one with His death, suffering and resurrection? The Father was not the sacrificial lamb, He sent Jesus to do that work. He did not do that work and therefore was spiritually connected, knowing all, but separate from the pain, suffering, the sin, the death and resurrection. Sorry, can't see it any other way.

Christ was a Divine Person who took on a human nature. in His humanity He suffered and died, but not in His Divine Nature. the Father only has a Divine Nature, so He didn't suffer and die. only Christ died, however, Scripture never says He was separated from the Father. that is your reading, and the only reason for that is you cannot see it any other way. well, we shouldn't base our reading of Scripture on personal interpretation. that is what you are doing. that is why, going back to your comment about Christ being forsaken, both prodromos and I have said you gotta read the entire psalm. it is unwise to isolate one line from its context.

 

[prodromos]

Again, Jesus said the Father had forsaken (abandoned, deserted) Him and that He was far from Him. He was one with the Father spiritually, but Jesus was also a man and this part of Him was separated.

The Father was never one with the flesh of Jesus, so where does that leave your argument?

You can easily state that if Jesus was separate from the Father, they changed. Agreed, spiritually. But aren't you are implying that Jesus, being "one" with the Father and if they weren't separated for that time also means that the Father died and suffered too?

No, because only the Son took on flesh and thus was capable of suffering in the flesh, even to the point of death.

See, you won't accept that, but doesn't that leave us with the Father being one with His death, suffering and resurrection?

No, because as I stated above, only the Son took on flesh. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit took on flesh so remain impassible.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

His ascension is a condescension to our understanding. He was never apart from the Father.

I never said He was apart from The Father. What do you mean by "His ascension is a condescension to our understanding."

 

[AYINDE F]

Y

In the book of John, when Mary Magdalene saw Jesus, He said to her-do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father.

Later he let *Thomas* touch his wounds.


Why couldn't she touch him? What did it have to do with Him ascending to His Father? And why was *Thomas* allowed to touch His wounds?

It is true that Jesus told Mary Magdalene not to touch her because he has not ascended to heaven but before He appeared to the disciples He has already ascended to heaven. that was why He allowed Thomas to touch Him. The ascension you were talking about was the public one in the book of Act 1.

In the book of John, when Mary Magdalene saw Jesus, He said to her-do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father.

Later he let *Thomas* touch his wounds.


Why couldn't she touch him? What did it have to do with Him ascending to His Father? And why was *Thomas* allowed to touch His wounds?

 

[AYINDE F]

[/QUOTE]
It is true that Jesus told Mary Magdalene not to touch her because he has not ascended to heaven but before He appeared to the disciples He has already ascended to heaven. that was why He allowed Thomas to touch Him. The ascension you were talking about was the public one in the book of Act 1.

 

[Radagast]

It is true that Jesus told Mary Magdalene not to touch her because he has not ascended to heaven but before He appeared to the disciples He has already ascended to heaven. that was why He allowed Thomas to touch Him.

Where does this idea of a private ascension come from? It's not in the Bible.

 

[AYINDE F]

I am not saying that Jesus had a private ascension. Do not misquote me. What i mean is that, there is no reason why Jesus would not let Mary touch Him and let Thomas. The only reason is that He has ascended to heaven before He appeared to the disciples. You may not understand this but let the Holy Spirit. That is my tought. I am not defending the scriptures but how i understood it.

 

[Radagast]

I am not saying that Jesus had a private ascension. Do not misquote me. What i mean is that, there is no reason why Jesus would not let Mary touch Him and let Thomas. The only reason is that He has ascended to heaven before He appeared to the disciples. You may not understand this but let the Holy Spirit. That is my tought. I am not defending the scriptures but how i understood it.

I'm guessing you haven't kept up with the rest of the thread. But Jesus did let Mary touch Him, and then asked her to stop holding on to him. The best translation of the Greek in John 20:17 is: Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

There is also no evidence in this verse for a private ascension between meeting Mary and the disciples. "I am ascending" refers to the ascension several weeks later. We have already discussed why Jesus says this.

And welcome to CF, by the way! Being new, you may not be aware that this thread is in the Eastern Orthodox subforum.

 

[Ronald]

The Father was never one with the flesh of Jesus, so where does that leave your argument?

Exactly, therefore He was separate from the fleshly part of Jesus. Being separate, He didn't experience the pain, suffering, sin and death and resurrection.

No, because only the Son took on flesh and thus was capable of suffering in the flesh, even to the point of death

I agree, and that was the point I was making. Really, what does forsake mean? It means abandon, desert, relinquish. Jesus said it, people can wrestle with it and have since then, but Jesus experienced this.

 

[Ronald]

Christ was a Divine Person who took on a human nature. in His humanity He suffered and died, but not in His Divine Nature. the Father only has a Divine Nature, so He didn't suffer and die. only Christ died,

Well, that's good, at least you agree with that. So if a person suffers and dies apart from you, that means you are separate from that experience!

Scripture never says He was separated from the Father.

Yes it does. Forsake means to abandon, desert -- to separate oneself from another.
So fatherless children would claim, their father abandoned them -- even for a short time, and you would say that doesn't mean the father was separate from his child? Come on. I am not reading into anything -- Jesus made the claim, weak and dying, but nevertheless, he uttered that profound mysterious phrase. You however are in denial of what the word "forsaken" means. You must cling to your Eastern Orthodox interpretation and not deviate. That's fine, play it safe, don't think out of the box. Are you sure they have a 100% understanding of the entire book.
There are some mysteries in the Bible that confound us and many scholars try to explain them away, but let's not be so sure of ourselves - no one has this book entirely figured out. The most important event in history cannot be fully grasped -- you would have to be omniscient.
I must put this going round and round to an end, since you refuse to realize the meaning of that word.

 

[Anhelyna]

Ronald

Please don't abuse the hospitality offered to you here in TAW.

Please do re-read the Statement of Purpose - The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox Statement of Purpose

This part seems to have some relevance

All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules. In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

There is also no evidence in this verse for a private ascension between meeting Mary and the disciples. "I am ascending" refers to the ascension several weeks later.

That actually makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would He tell her to tell His brothers that He was ascending (according to you 40 days later) when He knew He would see them later that same day? He could have easily told them then, when He saw them. Yet He told HER to tell them, specifically BECAUSE SHE would see them before He would. So something was eminent between when He saw her and when He saw His brothers later. It was no secret, He told her what He was about to do and even told her to tell His brothers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, that's good, at least you agree with that. So if a person suffers and dies apart from you, that means you are separate from that experience!


Yes it does. Forsake means to abandon, desert -- to separate oneself from another.
So fatherless children would claim, their father abandoned them -- even for a short time, and you would say that doesn't mean the father was separate from his child? Come on. I am not reading into anything -- Jesus made the claim, weak and dying, but nevertheless, he uttered that profound mysterious phrase. You however are in denial of what the word "forsaken" means. You must cling to your Eastern Orthodox interpretation and not deviate. That's fine, play it safe, don't think out of the box. Are you sure they have a 100% understanding of the entire book.
There are some mysteries in the Bible that confound us and many scholars try to explain them away, but let's not be so sure of ourselves - no one has this book entirely figured out. The most important event in history cannot be fully grasped -- you would have to be omniscient.
I must put this going round and round to an end, since you refuse to realize the meaning of that word.

no I realize the meaning of forsaken, however I am also of the mind that one should not isolate Scripture. that psalm continues. saying that I don't get the meaning of forsaken because I reject your interpretation is like me saying you can't read because you haven't referenced the rest of the psalm. let's not be immature.

and yes, I believe Orthodoxy is 100% correct, that is why I am Orthodox.

and nowhere in Scripture does it actually say Christ's relation to the Father changed. that is you.

 

[Ronald]

no I realize the meaning of forsaken, however I am also of the mind that one should not isolate Scripture. that psalm continues.

and yes, I believe Orthodoxy is 100% correct

Psalm 22, read it, many times. The teaching I received about his utterance of "Father, why have you forsaken Me?", was that He was drawing attention to this Psalm, a Messianic prophecy being fulfilled as He spoke.

..."Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning?"vs.1
"All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!" vs 6,7
"I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
My strength is like a potsherd,
And tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
But you Lord, do not be far from Me ... vs 14-19

This should be read often, it is Jesus' thoughts after that famous utterance and exactly what happened to him on the cross.

Thanks for your input and time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Psalm 22, read it, many times. The teaching I received about his utterance of "Father, why have you forsaken Me?", was that He was drawing attention to this Psalm, a Messianic prophecy being fulfilled as He spoke.

..."Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning?"vs.1
"All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!" vs 6,7
"I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
My strength is like a potsherd,
And tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
But you Lord, do not be far from Me ... vs 14-19

This should be read often, it is Jesus' thoughts after that famous utterance and exactly what happened to him on the cross.

Thanks for your input and time.

yes, and there is more. so it could be that Christ was quoting the psalm to point out what they were doing, since they claimed to know the Scriptures so well. it does not necessarily mean the Person of the Son was abandoned by the Person of the Father, since the Persons are Divine

 

[Ronald]

yes, and there is more. so it could be that Christ was quoting the psalm to point out what they were doing, since they claimed to know the Scriptures so well. it does not necessarily mean the Person of the Son was abandoned by the Person of the Father, since the Persons are Divine

OK

 

[ArmyMatt]

OK

alright