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No One Can Stop Sinning ...What ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Silver Surfer, Jul 13, 2003.

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  1. TwoWitnessesUSdotcom

    TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Member

    275
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    Other Religion
    From now on, I will reserve my posts for quoting scripture, let he who has ears, hear.



    Now read Romans 14: 23
    "And he that doubteth is ****** if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

    "For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?
    but if we hope for that we see not, we do, with patience wait for."
    (Romans 8: 24- 25)


    Now read Phillipians 3: 12- 21

    "12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Messiah Yahshua.
    13 Brethren I count not myself to have apprehended: but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth to those things which are before.
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Messiah Yahshua
    15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you,
    16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
    17 Brethren be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as you have us for an example
    18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Messiah;
    19 Whose end is destructrion, who's God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly thing.)
    20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Master, Yahshua Messiah
    21 Who will change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to dubdue all things to himself."

    Now Read Jude

    "1 Jude, the servant of Yahshua Messiah, and brother of James to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Yahshua Messiah and called:
    2 Mercy to you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
    3 Beloved, when I gave all dilligence to write to you of the common salvation it was needful for me to write to you and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.
    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, UNGODLY MEN, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LASCIVIOUSNESS AND DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD, AND OUR LORD YAHSHUA MESSIAH.
    5 I will therefore put you in rememberance, though you once knew this, HOW THAT THE LORD, HAVING SAVED THE PEOPLE OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, AFTERWARD DESTROYED THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT.
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner giving themselves over to FORNICATION, AND GOING AFTER STRANGE FLESH ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    8 LIKEWISE THESE FILTHY DREAMERS DEFILE THE FLESH, DESPISE DOMINION, AND SPEAK EVIL OF DIGNITIES.
    9 Yet, Michael the archangel. when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dare not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.
    10 BUT THESE SPEAK EVIL OF THOSE THINGS WHICH THEY KNOW NOT; BUT WHAT THEY KNOW NATURALLY, AS BRUTE BEASTS, IN THOSE THINGS THEY CORRUPT THEMSELVES.
    11 WOE TO THEM! FOR THEY HAVE GONE IN THE WAY OF CAIN, AND RAN GREEDILY AFTER THE ERROR OF BALAAM FOR REWARD, and are perished in the gainsayig of Core.
    12 THESE ARE SPOTS IN YOUR FEASTS OF CHARITY when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: CLOUDS THEY ARE WITHOUT WATER, CARRIED ABOUT OF WINDS; TREES WHOSE FRUIT WITHERS, WITHOUT FRUIT, TWICE DEAD, PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS:
    13 RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA, FOAMING OUT THEIR OWN SHAME; WANDERING STARS, TO WHOM is reserverd THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOR EVER
    14 And Enoch, also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold the lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are UNGODLY AMONG THEM OF ALL THEIR UNGODLY DEEDS WHICH THEY HAVE UNGODLY COMMITTED AND OF ALL THEIR HARD SPEECHES WHICH UNGODLY SINNERS HAVE SPOKEN AGAINST HIM."
    16 THESE ARE MURMURERS, COMPLAINERS, WALKING AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS; AND THEIR MOUTH SPEAKS GREAT SWELLING WORDS, HAVING MEN'S PERSONS IN ADMIRATION BECAUSE OF ADVANTAGE
    17 But beloved remember you the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Yahshua Messiah:
    18 How that they told you there should be MOCKERS in the last time, who should WALK AFTER THEIR OWN UNGODLY LUSTS.
    19 These be they who separate themselves, SENSUAL, HAVING NOT THE SPIRIT.
    20 But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy FAITH, praying in the Holy Spirit,
    21 Keep yourselves IN THE LOVE OF GOD, looking for the mercy of our Lord Yahshua Messiah UNTO ETERNAL LIFE.
    22 and of some SOME have compassion, making a difference:
    23 and others save with FEAR, PULLING THEM OUT OF THE FIRE; HATING EVEN THE GARMENT SPOTTED BY THE FLESH.
    24 Now to him THAT IS ABLE TO KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, AND TO PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS BEFORE THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY WITH EXCEEDING JOY,
    25 To the only wise God, and our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.

    Amen.
     
  2. TwoWitnessesUSdotcom

    TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Member

    275
    +3
    Other Religion
    Hebrews 7: 19
    "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope does; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

    Question, if the shedding of bulls and rams blood brought "forgiveness" of sins and all the shedding of Messiah's blood does is bring "forgiveness" of sins, why was Messiah's sacrifice a "better" sacrifice, seing they both did the same thing? Was it because Messiah only had to sacrifice once? Then Messiah's blood was shed simply to spare the people of God the "inconvenience" of shedding blood of rams and bulls over and over again?

    Romans teaches, and you even quoted the scripture, that Messiah's "atonement" does much more than bring forgiveness, but through faith in the hearers brings about "eradication" of sins, and complete "freedom" from sin.

    That's why his sacrifice was better, because the shedding of rams and bulls cold not make you "perfect," and Messiah's sacrifice "eventually" does make you perfect.

    I've never said that we don't sin, and I've never said we don't have a way of forgiveness when we do sin. What I've said is that the true believer "believes" that someday, through Messiah's power he can achieve sinless perfection. He who does not believe this, isn't a true believer.

    Why? Because simply put someone who says with his mouth "I can never stop sinning" truly can never stop sinning, for he has confessed the negative with his mouth, and without faith to do so, you truly can never stop sinning! Thus, he manifests that, even if Messiah were to return tomorrow, he is going to be found "sinning," or at least isn't worried about being found sinning at Messiah's return.

    It's not the sin I'm judging, but rather the lack of faith, for in order to have your faith accounted as righteousness, you've got to have faith to begin with, and someone who says "I can't" after receiving the gift of the cross, is denying his faith.



    Actually, I don't know where you got that translation, but I have a better one:

    "Romans 4: 5 (KJV)
    "but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungoldy, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    The context of this statement is talking about attempting to keep the law of God in your own power, through circumcision and other fleshly observances that have nothing to do with righteousness through the Spirit. In that context, yes, he who "worketh not," or he who is "not circumcised" or does not do various "washings," and other fleshly observances, but instead "believes on him who justifies the ungodly," his faith is counted for righteousness. All this is true, but the qualifier here is that you believe on him who "justifies the godly," in other words you believe in his power to bring you to complete "justification," which, my friends is "sinless perfection." The justification that comes of our faith is TRUE JUSTIFICATION, not a "proxy" justification whereby his righteousness is imputed as our own, but rather, we are transformed by the renewing of our minds, and become a new creature. He who is truly "justified" does not sin!

    If I don't "believe" on his power to "justify me" and make me "righteous," then I have no faith to be counted as righteousness!
    This is because "faith without works is dead, being alone."

    James 2: 14- 23
    "14 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and has no works? Can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yes, a man may say, you have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
    19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 but will you know, o vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 See how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
    24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

    Our "justification" comes through our faith, yes, but "justification" is manifested by works! That's why faith without works is dead, because true faith brings about works, and our works then justify our faith!

    Where people trip up when they hear "you can stop sinning in this life," is they think it's being said that you can "stop sinning by your own power, by observing fleshly laws," but that is not what is being said at all, what is being said is that "through faith, and the power of the Holy Spirit, and not by your own flesh, you can stop sinning."

    If you could stop sinning on your own power, we would not have needed Messiah, nor the new covenant. But, if after I recieve the power of the Holy Spirit, and the gift and the faith that comes from Messiah, if I then say "I cannot stop sinning," I'm denying that power I have received, and I'm returning myself to the former state I was in "in the flesh" before I received Messiah!

    I'm in essence ignoring the gospel, which came to "destroy the works of the devil," and which came to "purify and cleanse my flesh of all that is displeasing to God."

    In other words, when I revert back to my flesh I return to the "beast" that I was before Messiah, and I also deny that Messiah has power over my flesh, which means Messiah has not come "in the flesh," which is in "My flesh," and if I then quote Romans 7 "in me, that is in my flesh dwells no good thing," I'm denying that Messiah lives in my flesh!

    That is spirit of antimessiah!

    I am not saying that I am yet attained to perfection, but if I deny that I can do this "through power of Messiah," I am denying the work of the cross, for it was the work of the cross that bought me the grace, and the faith to be "justified," and I am justified not just by faith, but by WORKS according to the scripture.

    Therefore, through the new covenant I am now able to accomplish what I could not do in the old covenant, cease from sin, through Messiah's power of love.

    Thus, faith brings forth in me the "new creature," and I am conformed to the "image of Messiah." This is an ongoing work in me, and does not happen instantly. However, if I deny that I can attain to it, then I no longer am working and my faith is now dead. I have "shipwrecked" my faith!

    This is why it's so horrible when someone makes the argument "oh well you say you believe you can stop sinning and then you sin, you're an hypocrite and a liar." This is horrible because usually the person who says this has already admitted to sin themselves. Thus, what they are really saying is "it's ok to sin as long as you don't believe it's possible to stop sinning." Thus, the only time they will judge someone of sin, is if that person says they have faith to stop sinning! As long as the person says "I have no faith to stop sinning," then they will not judge that person for sin. In other words, when someone judges me in a sin and bases it on the fact that I say I believe I can stop sinning, they aren't judging me for the sin, they are judging me for my faith, for if I had not said I have "faith to stop sinning," they wouldn't be judging me for my sin, but would rather instead be saying to me "I understand brother, I sin too, we all sin, don't worry about it, just believe in Messiah's power to get you to heaven despite your sin."

    Yet, my faith is an "hope" based on the power of Messiah, and while I yet may stumble, I hope for it.

    As for your argument "no one has ever stopped sinning, so that's all the scriptural evidence I need to prove you can't stop sinning." I'm not even going to justify that with a response, for we know that Messiah INDEED lived his entire life "tempted in all ways yet without sin," and that we are his brethren, fellow heirs, and are to be "like him."

    When you say "no one I know can live without sin," and then conclude, "therefore it's impossible to live without sin," what you are doing is what was described when it says "they compare themselves by themselves."

    Here is how your logic breaks down.

    "No one I know has ever stopped sinning, therefore no one can ever stop sinning."

    Let's apply this logic to other things:

    "No one I know has ever seen God, therefore, no one can ever see God."

    Yet, interestingly enough, when you say "no one I know has ever quit sinning," you manifest that you don't know Messiah!

    Furthermore, you assume that just because you don't know anyone who lives without sin that means they don't exist! That's an interesting form of narcisism.



    Shalom to you sirs

    J. Dean
     
  3. TwoWitnessesUSdotcom

    TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Member

    275
    +3
    Other Religion
    The last book of the Bible was Revelation written around 70 AD.

    A lot can happen in over 1800 years!

    I find our argument quite humorous. Ok, name me one person in the bible who flew in an airplane or rode in a car!

    I didn't think so, I guess that proves airplanes and cars don't exist right?

    Your logic cracks me up.

    J. Dean
     
  4. Tawhano

    Tawhano Northland Highwayman Supporter

    +114
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Matthew 5:48
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    1John 3:8
    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


    Now this sure looks confusing doesn’t it? How can we be perfect like God? Those who sin are of the devil? Yet we read that all have sin. Anyone who says they haven’t sin is a liar we are taught in the scriptures. Man’s heart is evil continually the scriptures teach us.

    Job 1:1
    There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


    Job was perfect?

    Job 9:20
    If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.


    He didn’t think so. So why did the scriptures say he was perfect?

    Philippians 3: 12-15
    Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


    Paul was perfect?

    Philippians 3: 12
    Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


    He didn’t think so. He was still striving to be perfect. Why would Paul, who admits to not being perfect, preach to those who were already perfect?

    Perhaps the word perfect means other things as well as being without sin. The literal translation of the Greek word (τέλειος : teleios) used above is to be complete, as when you assemble something and all the parts are there and working; it is complete. Perhaps we need to examine each passage that exhorts the brethren to be perfect and see if it is talking about being without sin or perfect in another fashion.

    Romans 4:3-5
    For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Acts 26:18
    To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    Romans 5:1
    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


    We work to build ourselves up because we have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Our works do not save us, our faith does. Our faith makes us perfect in an imperfect body.

    Romans 7:23-25
    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


    As long as we are in this flesh this war will continue. We live for the hope that we can fight the good fight and obtain the promise when Jesus returns and makes all things new.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    When Christ returns for His bride then shall our flesh be changed. In the meantime, on earth in our sinful flesh, we have the Holy Spirit that makes us perfect in the eyes of the Lord.

    Romans 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
  5. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Tawhano - thank you for writing that all so eloquently. That was what I was trying to get across but you did a much better job of it than I.

    TwoWitnesses - as you did with Nephilimiyr for the length of this thread you are not only missing my point but mocking me.
     
  6. Luchnia

    Luchnia Member

    262
    +4
    Why do people turn the words, "All have sinned...." into "All sin?" Could someone clear that up?

    A man that sins will not inherit eternal life. Plain and simple. You sin, you don't have eternal life with God.

    Word up!
     
  7. Tawhano

    Tawhano Northland Highwayman Supporter

    +114
    Non-Denom
    Married
    If that was true then this verse and many like it would be false.

    1 John 2:1
    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
     
  8. TwoWitnessesUSdotcom

    TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Member

    275
    +3
    Other Religion

    There is a strange and growing phenomenon among those who teach and believe we can "never stop sinning in this life." Keep in mind that these are they who say that "belief in Messiah" alone, (belief in his grace) is sufficient to cover all their sins, both past, present and future, (which scripture does not teach), yet, these same ones have begun to judge the sins of those who believe and say "I can stop sinning through Messiah's power." Their strange and twisted argument begins as follows:

    [blockquote]*********[font color="red"]
    "If you say that you believe you can stop sinning, and then you go ahead and sin, you make yourself an hypocrite, because you say that you can stop sinning, but you do not stop sinning. You say, but do not. If you truly believed, you would then stop sinning and never sin again as long as you live." [/font][/p][/blockquote]

    This argument sounds wise and logical, however, in reality it denies, not only what the scriptures say about sin, grace, hope, and forgiveness, but it also violates what they legally claim to believe about grace, sin, hope, and forgiveness. They claim that we have forgiveness of all of our sins, and that we are "justified by faith alone" even if we do sin. Then they turn around and say that if I sin, after saying I believe I can stop sinning; therefore, I am an hypocrite. They conclude my sins I commit are not forgiven, and yet their sins are!

    They openly admit to committing the same sins for which they now accuse me, yet, they claim I am a liar because I commit sins after claiming to believe I can stop sinning. They thus judge me for committing the same sins they commit themselves, and yet they want to call me an hypocrite!

    This is a great paradox and one of the greatest deceptions Satan has ever devised. If I were to commit the same sins for which they now seek to judge me, but and if I commit them while saying (as they do) "I cannot stop sinning, for I am flesh," they would no longer judge me for those sins, but they would call me a brother, and praise me for my great "faith in the forgiveness of Messiah." However, since I say that I can stop sinning through Messiah's power, they then convict me of my sin, saying that I must be a liar, for, they conclude, if I truly believed that I can stop sinning, I wouldn't sin. In other words it's not the sin for which they judge me, but they judge me for my statement of faith in believing I can stop sinning.

    This becomes an even grander irony, for they are the ones who have continually said that it's futile for man to believe he can stop sinning. They certainly do not have any faith to believe we can stop sinning, and say so openly, but then want to judge others for not having the faith that they claim is impossible, namely faith to stop sinning.

    Your mind begins to reel at this point, without the Holy Spirit to guide you through the maze.

    They argue, "no, we don't judge you for not having faith to stop sinning, we judge you for saying you have faith to stop sinning, but yet, you don't have it, otherwise you would stop sinning."

    In making this argument, they unwittingly condemn themselves, for they are consenting to the truth that he who believes he can stop sinning should be able to stop sinning! This is something that they have, up to this point sought to deny! They have continually stated that even if a person believes he can stop sinning, that person is wrong, and cannot stop sinning, for he is in the flesh. This was their argument from the beginning, yet, now they wish to say the opposite, and what for? To judge us for our sin, and for our claims, and to call us hypocrites!

    By their own confessions, they say it's not possible to stop sinning, even should we believe it's possible, for, they say, we are "in the flesh until the day we die." This is their claim, yet they want to say I'm an hypocrite for sinning while claiming to believe that I can stop sinning. Yet, according to their own doctrines, at the very most all I can be found guilty of is foolishly believing that I can stop sinning, when this is impossible (so they say). At the most, I am but a fool, and not an hypocrite, by their own teachings. The only way they can legally call me an hypocrite is if they confess that it's possible to stop sinning when you believe. So, if they say I'm an hypocrite, they first must prove that I should have stopped sinning, and didn't. Yet, they have maintained all along that it is impossible to stop sinning.

    This mystery of their iniquity then grows even deeper, for if I am an hypocrite for my sin, because I say I believe I can stop sinning, but don't, thus, the only real sin, according to them is claiming to believe Messiah has given you the power to stop sinning. As long as you say to them "I"m a sinner saved by grace, I was born to sin, and I'll die in sin," they accept you as a man of truth, even if you sin. It's when I say to them "I believe I can stop sinning by faith," that they seek to judge you for your sins, and make you a liar and an hypocrite!

    Yet again, they say, "Not so! We judge you only for saying you believe something that your works and deeds manifest you do not truly believe!" Thus, it becomes a double dichotomy, for, if I am judged for saying I believe something that my works manifest I do not really believe, then they have judged themselves in judging me! How so? They are guilty of the same sins as I, and what's more, they claim to believe that faith in Messiah has granted us forgiveness for all sins, past, present, and future. In judging me, they manifest that they really don't believe what they say when they say "there is no condemnation for them that be in Messiah." If they truly believed this, they would not judge me at all, not for any sin, not without being found an hypocrite by their own words, for they say an hypocrite is one who claims to believe something but his works don't prove his belief!

    They judge us for sin, saying "I thought you said you believe you can stop sinning, why then do you not stop?" Such a false confession of which they accuse us would merely be a result of our "sinful state in the flesh" (according to what they say they believe). They claim that we can do nothing about this state of flesh we are in, and are bound to sin sooner or later! Yet, if they truly believed that God's grace is such that He overlooks our sins because He knows we are "in the flesh," then why do they not think this same grace also applies to me when I make the "so called error," of claiming to believe something that I clearly show (by my sin) that I do not really believe? Doesn't God's all encompassing grace that they claim to believe in also extend to the supposed "error" of which they accuse me? Why does this salvation by grace alone, of which they claim to believe only extend to them, and not to me?

    When they refuse to grant to us this grace of which they claim to believe, they manifest they don't really believe in this grace! They are guilty then of claiming to believe in grace, when in fact, they do not, for if they believed in grace alone, then would they not judge us at all, not for any sin!

    Yet, they do judge! How dare they judge any man for sin, if that man says he believes in Messiah? Seeing they claim that belief in Messiah alone is what saves you, and that it "covers all sins, past, present, and future?" Who is the hypocrite then? Does God's all encompassing grace extend to them alone? Evidently, for they seek to judge others for their sins, and for claiming to believe something that (according to them) if I truly believed, and if it were true, I would not sin!

    How can they judge any man for any sin at all? Seeing what they claim to believe? They claim faith in Messiah makes one impervious to condemnation for sin!

    What's the difference between their sin and ours, that we should be judged as hypocrites for our sin, while they are called "righteous and holy," by their faith in him despite their sins? Even if we "mistakenly" say that we can stop sinning, when if fact we can't, or if we claim to believe we can stop sinning when in fact we don't really believe it, doesn't that same faith and grace they say is accounted to them for righteousness also apply to us? Evidently, they don't think so, for they seek to accuse us of sin!

    They don't see that if all sins are forgiven when we believe on Messiah, then they cannot judge any one's sins as long as that one claims to believe in Messiah! If they call anyone an hypocrite, they are denying the basic tenets of their own faith which is "there is no condemnation for them that believe in Messiah!" Unless, of course they can see into hearts and tell whether someone's claim to believe in Messiah is true or false. Certainly, they can't use sin as the determining factor of the reality of someone's faith, for they've already said that those who believe continue in sin! Therefore, they can't judge sin at all, for all are "in the flesh," as they are, and are "bound to sin some times."

    In fact, they cannot even correct others for sin, not without being an hypocrite themselves, for they themselves believe there is no way to "stop sinning," because we are all in the "flesh,." How can they then say to anyone "you should stop doing this or that sin?" They can't say this, because they'd be asking the person to do what they've already said is impossible. Furthermore, they'd be expecting the offender to do what they don't even expect of themselves, (stop the sin).

    All they can really do when they see someone sin, is to ask that person to pray for forgiveness, and confess his sins! If the person refuses to do this, they can't judge them for that either, because "all sin" according to them, is covered by faith, and if this person commits the sin of refusing to ask forgiveness he can fall back on that same excuse that "I am in the flesh, I'm going to sin from time to time."

    In this we behold the true error of teaching and refusing to believe we can stop sinning in this life. How can they say, "It's impossible for me to stop sinning," and then turn around and ask the murderer or the child rapist to stop his sin? They can't! If they do, they are asking the person to do something that they don't even ask themselves to do, (which is stop sinning). They fall back on forgiveness every time they sin, so they have to allow the same forgiveness to apply to everyone who sins against them and their loved ones!
     
  9. TwoWitnessesUSdotcom

    TwoWitnessesUSdotcom Member

    275
    +3
    Other Religion

    Yet, here's their error, forgiveness is only granted to the one who is truly sorry for his or her sins. If they come to God asking forgiveness for sin, yet in their hearts and with their mouth say, "I had no control, the sin really wasn't my fault because I am a fleshly man," are they really being sorry for their sin, or are they making excuses before God? Aren't they rather saying, "God, please forgive me for this sin, even though it wasn't my fault, for I was born to this sin, being born in the flesh?" How can they say they are sorry for being the person they believe God created them to be? How real is their contrition? They are so much as saying "God, it wasn't my fault, I'm flesh and Lord, you know I can't help myself, so I ask for your forgiveness." Will God honor such as this? Not at all!

    We who confess with our mouths that it is possible to cease from sin through faith do manifest that when we sin, we have no excuse before God, and that we are the ones that are to be blamed, for our lack of faith. Thus, when we sin, and we go before God for forgiveness, our hearts are right before Him, for we make no excuses for the sin, but come to him agreeing with Him that our sin was our fault! We say, "God, forgive, for I know I did not have to sin, but I did sin, I make no excuses, I am guilty, and I throw myself at your mercy, have pity on me Yahweh, give me another chance to please you." Such an heart of honesty and contrition will not be rejected by God, and in no way can it be called "hypocricy." There is no hypocricy in admitting that our sins are a result in our own lack of faith in the power of the Holy Spirit!"

    Those who say, "we can't stop sinning in this life," do not realize the power of their own words. By words God created the Heavens, the Earth, and all that dwells therein. By the "word" of our testimony we shall overcome the Devil! When they say with their mouth "I can never stop sinning," they make a negative statement of "non-faith" by saying "I cannot," instead of saying "I can," and so it happens to them according to the words of their own mouths! He who says, "I can't" is denying the Spirit, when we should instead be "denying the flesh." He who says "I cannot, for I am flesh," is starving the Spirit and feeding their own flesh! If you don't believe you can stop sinning, and say so openly, your words of your mouth have made you a slave to sin in the flesh for the rest of your days.

    Yet, if you say with your mouth, "I can stop sinning through Messiah who strengthens me," you manifest the truth with your mouth, and even if your heart has trouble believing these words, if you press on in this confession of faith, you shall see it come to pass!

    He who seeks to move a mountain must first say "be removed and cast into the sea, oh mountain!" If you say "I cannot move this mountain for I am just a man," the mountain will never be moved.

    If you say to the mountain, "be moved," and your heart has trouble believing, again, the mountain will not move, not right away, but if you say again to the mountain "be moved, God has promised," and you keep saying this to the mountain, and you keep studying God's word, and you let your heart faith grow, sooner or later your heart will agree with your words, and when you say "be moved oh mountain," God sees your faith, honors your heart and your words, and casts the mountain into the sea, as you have commanded the mountain!

    Again, if I say "I cannot move that mountain," God will say, "so be it, you of little faith."

    They will say to me, "well, you have judged us for our sin!" Not so! I have not judged them at all, but their own statement of unbelief will judge them in the last day, for they have said they don't believe they can cease from sin, and so they won't, and God says "so be it, you workers of iniquity!"

    You may judge my statement of faith, saying, "you state falsely, for you say, but do not," yet he who says "I cannot stop sinning, but I'm still saved because I believe," has not proved he believes anything at all, and, in fact, has said "I believe, but I don't believe."

    We both have committed sin, the only difference is we confess our sin, that we sinned against our own faith, whereas these sin, and then say "I had no choice for I was born in the flesh and I'll die in the flesh, I was born to commit the offense." Thus, they place the ultimate responsibility for their sin on Him who created them, rather than taking the responsibility for their own offenses. Else, they want to blame Adam for their sin, in the same way Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin, and Eve tried to blame the serpent.

    We who make no excuses for our sins, but do chastise ourselves for offenses, do so for we know that, had we believed God, we would not have given way to our own flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. When we come to God, having sinned, and ask for his foregiveness, we receive it, because our advocate, Yahshua Messiah, the righteous. This forgiveness is only available to them that are humble and that have faith!

    To them that have no faith, and say, "faith cannot keep me from sinning," no forgiveness is offered, for they refuse to admit they lack faith unto sinless perfection. How can they receive of God and have their faith strenthened to sinless perfection, if they deny such faith even exists!

    How shall they ask and receive if they refuse to believe they can ask and receive? How shall they receive God's perfect grace if they refuse to believe in Messiah's power? If they deny Messiah's power to make them righteous through faith, they have no propitiation, and they have no advocate with the Father, for they have denied his power and authority to act on their behalf! They have fired their attorney! Their faith therefore is dead, not being justified by works. How say they, then, "I am justified by faith?"

    With their mouths they have confessed that they do not believe! When they say, "I cannot cease from sin because I am flesh, and in my flesh dwells no good thing," they have denied that Messiah dwells in their flesh through the Holy Spirit! They are denying Messiah is Lord, even of their flesh.

    They thus have denied the Lord and Master of their faith! How then can they be saved, seeing they have denied the Kingship of Messiah and the power of their deliverer over their mortal flesh?

    Howbeit, when he who was once a beast, but has been tranformed by the Spirit into that which God had all along intended, and fore ordained to our glory, he shall not then again turn and call himself a beast. This is the endurance of the saints. It is the hope of the creature to be as He who created.

    When he who is Spiritual shall put off the beast, and put on Messiah, it is only natural for he who is of the beast to gnash his teeth in pain, for his nature is now exposed. It's natural for the beast to be a beast, he knows no other way. The son of perdition says to Messiah, touch not my flesh, for it is mine! So be it! Messiah will not force his love on any creature, not even a serpent.

    We judge by faith, and not by works, yet we live by works through our faith. Sin is sin, fellow children, and those who commit sin are of the devil. Yet, we who have at times sinned against God, now obtain mercy and grace, but we have done so by faith, and not just dead faith, but a living faith that is justified ultimately in our works
     
  10. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    So no one has eternal life with God? The Bible is clear that all have sinned. Or do you mean that after we become a Christian we have to never sin again for Christ's sacrifice does not cover those sins. It only covers the sins before conversion.
     
  11. Silver Surfer

    Silver Surfer Member

    224
    +2
    SDA
    Single
    So, you believe God is too weak to over come the power of Satan ?
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Who are you asking? If me I would say no.
     
  13. Luchnia

    Luchnia Member

    262
    +4
    If a man were not to quit sin, then why do you suppose the Word says "Sin not?" Isn't that a lie taught by God, if it were not possible? It is not only possible, it is a must. There are no exceptions anywhere to a sinner entering eternal life in his sin. The man that sins serves sin and his father is the devil.

    Not one scripture teaches that all "will continue to sin, once born again." Actually we find the sinners fate in many text. You sin, your fate is eternal torments, unless God was a liar. We do know that is not the case.

    It is interesting to note that the text often mis-used is taken to mean "when you sin." It says, "Little children...., sin not, but IF you..." It implies "if," not "when" you sin. If it were "when you sin," then there would be no need for "sin not." It would be "try not to sin."

    It really isn't rocket science. Even Paul said that the child of God was free from the law of sin and death and even "dead" to sin. Also, the children of God are led by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God does not lead one to sin.

    Word up!
     
  14. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Luchnia did you read the aforegoing posts?

    This has become a circular argument.
     
  15. Tawhano

    Tawhano Northland Highwayman Supporter

    +114
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not at all. The fact is that your own beliefs convict you not our words. No one here said you weren’t forgiven if you repent. This is a frequently used fallacy called a Straw man.

    Your entire post# 168 has nothing to do with what we are debating here. In fact you frequently debate what you think someone said and not what they actually said. Just an observance I have made from your posts.
     
  16. Tawhano

    Tawhano Northland Highwayman Supporter

    +114
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Which totally avoids answering my question to you in post #167.
     
  17. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    I'm going to close this thread now. It seems to have lost any direction. People are misreading other people's posts, and there is a lot of self-righteousness going on.

    I would like to see this dialogue continued but without the condescending attitudes. May I recommend to those who wish to argue that their standpoint is right, that you try Formal Debates in IDD.

    Kthxbye :)
     
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