No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Logically, if no one can come unless drawn, does that mean everyone drawn must come? Of course not.

You ignore the entire meaning of the word. Can a sword which is drawn refuse to come out? Does it fight back? Does a bucket of water which is being drawn from a well have any power against the one drawing it? No.

Again: The word is most accurately defined as one animate force or party acting upon one inanimate force or party.

You are the one trying to redefine the word.

 

[DeaconDean]

There is no basis in scripture if you accept the common meaning of words, rather than the specialized ones invented to support Calvinism.

And just like one person in the Soteriology area has said previously, with the changing of one word the same applies here also:

There is no scriptural basis to support the Arminian position, nothing, zip, nada, ziltch.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Tzaousios]

And just like one person in the Soteriology area has said previously, with the changing of one word the same applies here also:

There is no scriptural basis to support the Arminian position, nothing, zip, nada, ziltch.

Actually, two people said it recently in reference to Calvinism. It is very interesting. But of course, we are supposed to think that they both thought of the phrase and its target absolutely independently of each other.

 

[anthony55]

Basically what Jesus is saying in jn 6 44, but only those who have eyes [spiritually] will discern this, but Jesus is saying that no man has the ability to come [in faith] to me except the Father [regenerates ] him. Draw is just a word describing the effects of regeneration. In the day of God's Power [ the Spirit regenerating] we become willing.

 

[DeaconDean]

I previously said:

elkw-to draw, drag, John 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19; 21:30; Jas. 2:6; to draw a sword, unsheath, Jn. 18:10; met; to draw mentally and morally, Jn. 6:44, 12:32
​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "elko", p. 135

According to The Theological Dictionary of the New Testamant:

"elkw" Our particular concern is with the figurative use in John. John 6:44 says: "eoudeis dunatai elqein pros, me ean o pathr o pemyaV elkusw auton and in 12:32: kagw ean uywqw ek thV ghV, pantaV elkusw proV emauton".

The basic meaning is to "tug" or "draw" (with material obj.: Jn. 18:10; 21:6,11). In the case of persons (cf. also 3 Macc. 4:7; Acts 16:19; 21:30; Jm. 2:6) it may mean "to compel": P. Tebt. 5, 179 (2nd Cent. B.C.)...In modern Semitic culture, we should note the concept of the magdub (as distinct from magnun). The magdub (from gadaba, "to draw") is one who is drawn to God by an irrestible and supernatural force, whereas, magnun is a person indwelt by demons.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. II, "elkw", p. 503, Albrecht Oepke commenting.

And Calvinists use meanings:

...invented to support Calvinism.

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I previously said:



According to The Theological Dictionary of the New Testamant:



The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. II, "elkw", p. 503, Albrecht Oepke commenting.

And Calvinists use meanings:



Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So do you think "compel" would be a good word to describe how God "draws" His elect? I had never heard that exact term used to describe it, and I see a few issues with it. I think it can easily be confused by the synergist, who thinks God regenerates us by compulsion. I think it would make more sense to say God has us believe by compulsion. But even so, synonymous terms seem to just cloud the meaning. Would we say God "convinces" His elect? God "forces" His elect? God "drives" His elect? "draws"? "drags"? "pressures"? "sways"?

The word "compel" just seems like a very loose term to me, it may confuse more than help.

For the record, I am not arguing, just asking an honest question, from a younger brother to an older.

 

[DeaconDean]

So do you think "compel" would be a good word to describe how God "draws" His elect? I had never heard that exact term used to describe it, and I see a few issues with it. I think it can easily be confused by the synergist, who thinks God regenerates us by compulsion. I think it would make more sense to say God has us believe by compulsion. But even so, synonymous terms seem to just cloud the meaning. Would we say God "convinces" His elect? God "forces" His elect? God "drives" His elect? "draws"? "drags"? "pressures"? "sways"?

The word "compel" just seems like a very loose term to me, it may confuse more than help.

For the record, I am not arguing, just asking an honest question, from a younger brother to an older.

I just don't know, I wasn't so much focused on that aspect of it as I was this part:

The magdub (from gadaba, "to draw") is one who is drawn to God by an irrestible and supernatural force,

That word also carries the same weight as what Jesus said here:

"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." -Mt. 5:41 (KJV)

A person can't "compel" you to go a mile with them, but they can plead, or ask you to.

And if they do, then don't the mile, go further.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hentenza]

So do you think "compel" would be a good word to describe how God "draws" His elect? I had never heard that exact term used to describe it, and I see a few issues with it. I think it can easily be confused by the synergist, who thinks God regenerates us by compulsion. I think it would make more sense to say God has us believe by compulsion. But even so, synonymous terms seem to just cloud the meaning. Would we say God "convinces" His elect? God "forces" His elect? God "drives" His elect? "draws"? "drags"? "pressures"? "sways"?

The word "compel" just seems like a very loose term to me, it may confuse more than help.

For the record, I am not arguing, just asking an honest question, from a younger brother to an older.

I'll tell you a short portion of my story. I was raised a RC but fell away after graduating from college. No answers to the questioning at heart. lol Eventually I became an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I still remember those days well. Then 14 years ago God called me back. The moment is not well defined so I don't have a date or an hour like some do, however, the desire was extremely strong. It was so strong that it compelled me to seek Him, go to church, and begin my journey with Him. In short order I was compelled to be baptized. I was also compelled to study theology. Previously I was an avid reader of mainly fiction with some non fiction (mainly biographies) thrown in for good measure. During the first 4 years after God called me I was compelled to read and study nothing but theology. I read the bible 9 times from cover to cover during those 4 years. I read volumes upon volumes of the most dry type of theology books that you can think of. I lost my desire to read fiction and until only recently, have not read any. Just theology.

From my experience, I can honestly testify that the Lord compelled me to do what I now know was His will. To this day I know that I did not do anything that I wanted but that which the Lord commanded. I have no issues with using the word compel to describe what God did for me. My life is saved, not just spiritually but also physically. Without Him compelling me I would still be lost both spiritually and physically. Sometimes a Father must compel His children.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'll tell you a short portion of my story. I was raised a RC but fell away after graduating from college. No answers to the questioning at heart. lol Eventually I became an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I still remember those days well. Then 14 years ago God called me back. The moment is not well defined so I don't have a date or an hour like some do, however, the desire was extremely strong. It was so strong that it compelled me to seek Him, go to church, and begin my journey with Him. In short order I was compelled to be baptized. I was also compelled to study theology. Previously I was an avid reader of mainly fiction with some non fiction (mainly biographies) thrown in for good measure. During the first 4 years after God called me I was compelled to read and study nothing but theology. I read the bible 9 times from cover to cover during those 4 years. I read volumes upon volumes of the most dry type of theology books that you can think of. I lost my desire to read fiction and until only recently, have not read any. Just theology.

From my experience, I can honestly testify that the Lord compelled me to do what I now know was His will. To this day I know that I did not do anything that I wanted but that which the Lord commanded. I have no issues with using the word compel to describe what God did for me. My life is saved, not just spiritually but also physically. Without Him compelling me I would still be lost both spiritually and physically. Sometimes a Father must compel His children.

Amen!

And well said, brother, better words I could not have used.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I'll tell you a short portion of my story. I was raised a RC but fell away after graduating from college. No answers to the questioning at heart. lol Eventually I became an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I still remember those days well. Then 14 years ago God called me back. The moment is not well defined so I don't have a date or an hour like some do, however, the desire was extremely strong. It was so strong that it compelled me to seek Him, go to church, and begin my journey with Him. In short order I was compelled to be baptized. I was also compelled to study theology. Previously I was an avid reader of mainly fiction with some non fiction (mainly biographies) thrown in for good measure. During the first 4 years after God called me I was compelled to read and study nothing but theology. I read the bible 9 times from cover to cover during those 4 years. I read volumes upon volumes of the most dry type of theology books that you can think of. I lost my desire to read fiction and until only recently, have not read any. Just theology.

From my experience, I can honestly testify that the Lord compelled me to do what I now know was His will. To this day I know that I did not do anything that I wanted but that which the Lord commanded. I have no issues with using the word compel to describe what God did for me. My life is saved, not just spiritually but also physically. Without Him compelling me I would still be lost both spiritually and physically. Sometimes a Father must compel His children.

Thanks for the input Hentenza. And I am glad the Lord has compelled you in this way. But I suppose this is not my issue. I know that the Lord certainly compels us who are already His children to do certain things, that we may ultimately glorify Him. But I can see a bit of implied synergism if God were to "compel" sinners to salvation. I think the compulsion comes after the salvation. Not before.

Does that make sense?

 

[DeaconDean]

Thanks for the input Hentenza. And I am glad the Lord has compelled you in this way. But I suppose this is not my issue. I know that the Lord certainly compels us who are already His children to do certain things, that we may ultimately glorify Him. But I can see a bit of implied synergism if God were to "compel" sinners to salvation. I think the compulsion comes after the salvation. Not before.

Does that make sense?

There are essentially two types of the usage of compel.

There is the usage Hentenza speaks of which what is dictated by conscious.

And then there is the compel which takes the form of "forced service" as in one who is drafted into the military.

And God definately does not "force" anyone into salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

There are essentially two types of the usage of compel.

There is the usage Hentenza speaks of which what is dictated by conscious.

And then there is the compel which takes the form of "forced service" as in one who is drafted into the military.

And God definately does not "force" anyone into salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well God certainly does force one to be regenerate, does He not? We don't decide to be regenerated, we only decide to follow Christ after God regenerates us. That is what I am getting at.

 

[Hentenza]

Thanks for the input Hentenza. And I am glad the Lord has compelled you in this way. But I suppose this is not my issue. I know that the Lord certainly compels us who are already His children to do certain things, that we may ultimately glorify Him. But I can see a bit of implied synergism if God were to "compel" sinners to salvation. I think the compulsion comes after the salvation. Not before.

Does that make sense?

Sure, but I was compelled before I was His so from my experience, I would venture to say that I was compelled before I was His. And after. lol

I am not saying that this is the way that it is with all but it was certainly with me. It makes it kind of hard for me to accept that I had anything to do with it and consequently, not synergistic.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Sure, but I was compelled before I was His so from my experience, I would venture to say that I was compelled before I was His. And after. lol

I am not saying that this is the way that it is with all but it was certainly with me. It makes it kind of hard for me to accept that I had anything to do with it and consequently, not synergistic.

Yeah, and I suppose it is easy to look at it that way. And it may have even happened like that. But I try to avoid using experience to influence dogmatic theology. Many times our view of a certain experience is limited.

I usually think of the story of my brother-in-law. He was attending church with us before he and my sister got married. For a few years he seemed very on fire for the Lord. He was very involved and was learning a lot. All of the sudden, he started hanging around with the wrong people, and BAM! He moved away and became a big time drug dealer and all this stuff. Three years later he moved back, started dating my sister, came back to church, and then embraced Christianity like he never had before. I have talked with him many times about it, he likes to think he never was a Christian in the first place. I offered him a different explanation, that he was a Christian, fell into a period of sin, and because he truly was saved, came back as a proof of that. He says that could also be very true, but he doesn't know because he has trouble judging his own heart. I had a similar experience during my high school years, and I would also agree. It is hard to judge your own heart, especially so many years later.

We are so humanly minded when we view God's work in our lives that sometimes experience can be quite cloudy and misunderstood. That's why I embrace Sola Scriptura as the real means to determining dogmatic theology. Not that experiences contribute nothing to our understanding, but that Scripture is how God ultimately speaks to us, even through our experiences.

 

[BrotherBob]

I was probably the most anti-Christian, anti-religious person you
want to meet for the first forty years of my life. I had studied all
the religions of this world and come to the conclusion they were all
bunk. I had successes and failures throughout my life and was
resigned to what I thought was my lot in life. I was preached to
on many occasions to no visible effect. Then in my fortieth year
God sent his Holy Spirit to me and showed me the truth. I was
not looking for God and had no interest in God. But yes, He drew
me or drag me or something and I know it was not me. Praise
God! I wouldn't have done it on my own.

 

[Van]

Calvinist position, draw means compel by irresistible grace. This is an invented meaning. Jeremiah 31:3 tells us how God draws, by lovingkindness. And love does not demand its own way. So the invented meaning has no basis in scripture, all who are attracted are not compelled by irresistible grace. This is demonstrated by Matthew 23:13. And they were not self deluded because Jesus said they were entering heaven.

 

[Thaeoles]

Calvinist position, draw means compel by irresistible grace. This is an invented meaning. Jeremiah 31:3 tells us how God draws, by lovingkindness. And love does not demand its own way. So the invented meaning has no basis in scripture, all who are attracted are not compelled by irresistible grace. This is demonstrated by Matthew 23:13. And they were not self deluded because Jesus said they were entering heaven.

Matthew 23:13 has nothing to do with salvation. The context is Jesus rebuking the Pharisees. You can't build sound theology on eisegesis.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Calvinist position, draw means compel by irresistible grace. This is an invented meaning. Jeremiah 31:3 tells us how God draws, by lovingkindness. And love does not demand its own way. So the invented meaning has no basis in scripture, all who are attracted are not compelled by irresistible grace. This is demonstrated by Matthew 23:13. And they were not self deluded because Jesus said they were entering heaven.

Van, you keep avoiding my original point. How can an inanimate object resist? It is inanimate, meaning it cannot do anything. When you draw water from a well, does the water fight back? No, of course not. Does the one drawing the water have to yell down the well, "Hey water! Please let me draw you! I promise I won't drink you..." No, that is silly talk. And yet, it is the position you are defending.

God draws us like water from a well. That is what the text says. Build your theology from there.

 

[DeaconDean]

Calvinist position, draw means compel by irresistible grace. This is an invented meaning. Jeremiah 31:3 tells us how God draws, by lovingkindness. And love does not demand its own way. So the invented meaning has no basis in scripture, all who are attracted are not compelled by irresistible grace. This is demonstrated by Matthew 23:13. And they were not self deluded because Jesus said they were entering heaven.

Once again, as in the past, you are given a definition out of a valid authority on NT Greek and here you go again, saying:

This is an invented meaning.

Van, I ask that you prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that what is listed in The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

"elkw" Our particular concern is with the figurative use in John. John 6:44 says: "eoudeis dunatai elqein pros, me ean o pathr o pemyaV elkusw auton and in 12:32: kagw ean uywqw ek thV ghV, pantaV elkusw proV emauton".

The basic meaning is to "tug" or "draw" (with material obj.: Jn. 18:10; 21:6,11). In the case of persons (cf. also 3 Macc. 4:7; Acts 16:19; 21:30; Jm. 2:6) it may mean "to compel": P. Tebt. 5, 179 (2nd Cent. B.C.)...In modern Semitic culture, we should note the concept of the magdub (as distinct from magnun). The magdub (from gadaba, "to draw") is one who is drawn to God by an irrestible and supernatural force, whereas, magnun is a person indwelt by demons.
​

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. II, "elkw", p. 503, Albrecht Oepke commenting.

Is wrong and invented.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[razeontherock]

How can an inanimate object resist? When you draw water from a well, does the water fight back? Does the one drawing the water have to yell down the well, "Hey water! Please let me draw you! God draws us like water from a well. That is what the text says. Build your theology from there.

Interesting point! We were all dead in our sins, it's true. No Spiritual life whatsoever. But we weren't inanimate.

As for theology, I always liked the verse in Isaiah that tells us to "draw water from the wells of Salvation." Apparently it's a two-way street? I sure am glad God doesn't resist! I can tell you I did, but I failed even at that. This paints a beautiful picture for me, of a 'healthy' relationship with the Lord.