No one can come to me unless the Father draws him...

Charis kai Dunamis

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Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Most Calvinists point to this as being a proof of monergism; God must draw the individual first before he can come to Christ. A similar statement is made later on, enforcing the statement made in verse 44:

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Because Jesus says that He has already said this thing, it makes it quite reasonable that He was pointing back to what He said in verse 44. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has granted it to them, and the Father must draw them to Christ.

Now the typical rebuttal is to immediately run to John 12:32, where it says:

Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

And the synergist says "See! He draws all men!"

And I am going to prove this line of reasoning as false, right here and now.

The synergist jumps on the opportunity for a proof text, for no other reason than they are helpless against John 6. John 6 clearly teaches monergism, I didn't quote much of it but there is a whole lot more that Jesus says to support this claim.

Now, most of us are probably familiar with the terminology in John 6:44, and the English "draw". The word means nothing of "wooing" or "convincing" as it may mean in the English. The closest correct interpretation from the English word "draw" would be something like drawing water from a well, or drawing a sword from its sheath, or drawing a net of fish from water. The Greek is ἕλκω (helko), which is a verb (or an action word). The word is most accurately defined as one animate force or party acting upon one inanimate force or party. Meaning, if someone were to "draw their sword" or "draw water from a well" or "draw a net of fish", the sword is inanimate, or the water is inanimate, or the fish are inanimate. There is no fighting between the two objects, as well as the opposite; there is no synergy between them at all. It is one party acting upon another. All biblical usages fit under this description with absolute certainty.

Jhn 18:10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
Jhn 21:6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish.
Jhn 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
Act 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,
Act 21:30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

Now in some of these usages, it might be easy to see that there may have been struggling going on from the object/party which is being acted upon. And that may have been; Paul may have been struggling when he was dragged away, and those fishing may have been struggling to pull the net in. But that is not stated in the word itself. It's similar to me saying that I caught a fish. By using there word "caught", you don't know whether there was really a fight between the fish and I at all. All you know is that I somehow caught a fish, whether with a net, or my hands, or a fishing pole, etc. It is the same here.

So now that I got some background covered, let's jump back to John 12:32. If ἕλκω defines God as drawing men, by Himself, with no help or struggle in either direction, then wouldn't John 12:32 be saying that God was going to save all men, since He would be drawing all men to Himself?

There is a slight problem here (apart from Universalism). The passages are being falsely equated. Who is doing the drawing in John 6?

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Father is drawing.

Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Jesus is drawing.

Right here, you have two different statements. They cannot be equated. First, Jesus says no one can come unless the Father draws him. Then later on Jesus says the He Himself will draw all men.

It is clear that what is meant here are two different drawings. We Calvinists would still affirm that John 6 is teaching Monergism, and more specifically, monergistic regeneration. But from the context, John 12:32 can be spelled out very specifically in opposition to the synergists, now that we have established a few things.

In John 12, the context is that Greeks (Gentiles) were going up to worship, and these were who Jesus was speaking to.

Jhn 12:20 Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast;

and Jesus says, among other things,

Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

and John provides commentary, to clarify this statement which Jesus had made:

Jhn 12:33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Now, the most plausible interpretation, according to the context, as opposed to Universalism (which is the only other option), is that Jesus was telling the Greeks that His death would be made available for all men, Jew or Gentile. Thus, the reference to drawing all men to Himself is pointing to the fact that His death would not only be for Jews, but also for all other people (Gentiles). It is not in reference to individuals, but instead mankind as a whole. We might point to John 10, where Jesus makes a statement along these same lines:

Jhn 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Jhn 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

One flock is the Jews, the other flock is the Gentiles. There are of different folds; a fold is a place where the sheep are kept. They must become one flock, meaning the Church, and He will be their shepherd.

I say all of this to show that simply quoting John 12:32 as an opposition to the whole chapter of John 6 is not adequate, and is based on a logical fallacy. It shows that synergists cannot reconcile what Jesus has taught, and are in a desperate scramble to preserve their supposed free will.
 
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Hammster

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Something else occured to me. I, too, have seen the John 12 passage used in response to John 6. But it is really a superficial argument. In other words, the synergist just wants to focus on the "draw" and try to show some form of prevenient grace. I think that is because they have trouble supporting their views with any sort of context of scripture. But where they fall short in this example is that if we were to grant that John 12 really did mean that all men are drawn equally, then they would need to read that back into the whole of John 6 and not just the first part of v. 44. Which, if they did this, would lead to universalism.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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You won't find that in the Bible

I don't find your words in the bible either. I did quote a decent amount in the OP though, as opposed to most of your posts, which offer nothing but ad hominem, strawmen and red herrings, with the quote being a perfect example.

Why don't you provide us with an example of your masterful exegesis.
 
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Easystreet

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I don't find your words in the bible either. I did quote a decent amount in the OP though, as opposed to most of your posts, which offer nothing but ad hominem, strawmen and red herrings, with the quote being a perfect example.

Why don't you provide us with an example of your masterful exegesis.
What is with all this hostility and personal attack?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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What is with all this hostility and personal attack?

No hostility or attack... just a statement of truth and an honest invitation. Instead of trying to mock me, why don't you provide something worthwhile? Actually comment on the OP and show me where I went wrong.
 
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anthony55

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Draw != force.

No it does not. You obviously have not looked up the word for its metaphorical definition.

It is the greek word
helkō


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The Father or Christ leads them. Jesus said of His Sheep Jn 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

The sheep are not being forced, they are being led by His voice.

You need to study more.
 
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Dark_Lite

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No it does not. You obviously have not looked up the word for its metaphorical definition.

It is the greek word
helkō


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The Father or Christ leads them. Jesus said of His Sheep Jn 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

The sheep are not being forced, they are being led by His voice.

You need to study more.

!= means does not equal.
 
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razeontherock

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Ok, this is reasonable discussion:

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Most Calvinists point to this as being a proof of monergism; God must draw the individual first before he can come to Christ. Now the typical rebuttal is to immediately run to John 12:32, where it says: Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." And the synergist says "See! He draws all men!" And I am going to prove this line of reasoning as false, right here and now.

let's jump back to John 12:32. If ἕλκω defines God as drawing men, by Himself, with no help or struggle in either direction, then wouldn't John 12:32 be saying that God was going to save all men, since He would be drawing all men to Himself?

There is a slight problem here (apart from Universalism). The passages are being falsely equated. Who is doing the drawing in John 6?

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Father is drawing.

Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Jesus is drawing.

Right here, you have two different statements. They cannot be equated.

It is clear that what is meant here are two different drawings. We Calvinists would still affirm that John 6 is teaching Monergism, and more specifically, monergistic regeneration. But from the context, John 12:32 can be spelled out very specifically in opposition to the synergists, now that we have established a few things.

It shows that synergists cannot reconcile what Jesus has taught, and are in a desperate scramble to preserve their supposed free will.

I've never encountered your terms monergism / synergists. Is it as simple as what is apparent from context? Anyway, the problem I see with your whole line of reasoning is you overlook that Jesus does nothing of Himself. He would not draw anyone the Father does not draw, so your foundation here appears to be gone. I think this has everything to do with Him being Faithful, tested, and proven Worthy; made both Lord and Christ. Baby Jesus was neither. W/o Holy Ghost, too.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Ok, this is reasonable discussion:



I've never encountered your terms monergism / synergists. Is it as simple as what is apparent from context? Anyway, the problem I see with your whole line of reasoning is you overlook that Jesus does nothing of Himself. He would not draw anyone the Father does not draw, so your foundation here appears to be gone. I think this has everything to do with Him being Faithful, tested, and proven Worthy; made both Lord and Christ. Baby Jesus was neither. W/o Holy Ghost, too.

In the end, I do find them to be the same drawing. Christ will not draw men whom the Father does not draw. But that is not my point. What I am saying is that there are two different types of drawing, one being general, and one being specific. The drawing by Christ is for all types of men, Jew or Gentile, that being specified by the context. The drawing by the Father, however, as mentioned in John 6, is intended towards specific individuals. No one can come to the Christ unless the Father draws them, including your Aunt Sally or Uncle Eddy.

See my point?
 
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Van

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Yes another effort to support Calvinism without laying a foundation in scripture.

1) Draw only means to literally drag by compulsion according to Calvinism, yet draw seems to be used metaphorically to refer to presenting the gospel in an attractive way.

2) The claim that the only alternative to the Calvinism view of John 12:32 is Universalism. This of course is based on the fiction that John 6:44 says everyone the Father draws will be saved. But John 6:44 says No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the third day. The person being referred to as the one who comes to Him is the one that will be raised up, not every person drawn by a presentation of the gospel. See the problem, using the disputed definition of draw to support the argument that everyone drawn is saved.

Bottom line, neither verse says what Calvinism claims, John 12:32 does not say "draw all [kinds] of men" and John 6:44 does not say "Everyone drawn by the Father comes to Me."
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Yes another effort to support Calvinism without laying a foundation in scripture.

I did lay a foundation of Scripture. You dispute my effort. But don't tell me I didn't lay a foundation because I surely did. There is more Scripture in my post than yours, and a more detailed explanation as well. If anyone's post is lacking support it is yours.

1) Draw only means to literally drag by compulsion according to Calvinism, yet draw seems to be used metaphorically to refer to presenting the gospel in an attractive way.

Drag by compulsion? That is not the Calvinist view.

2) The claim that the only alternative to the Calvinism view of John 12:32 is Universalism. This of course is based on the fiction that John 6:44 says everyone the Father draws will be saved. But John 6:44 says No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the third day. The person being referred to as the one who comes to Him is the one that will be raised up, not every person drawn by a presentation of the gospel. See the problem, using the disputed definition of draw to support the argument that everyone drawn is saved.

No, Jesus clearly says that the one who is drawn will be raised.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

There is no subjunctive, no possibility, no chance. The one comes, who must first be drawn, is raised. The one who comes has been granted by the Father, and Has been given by the Father to Christ.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Bottom line, neither verse says what Calvinism claims, John 12:32 does not say "draw all [kinds] of men" and John 6:44 does not say "Everyone drawn by the Father comes to Me."

John 12:32 certainly does say it, it is just not implicit, which is apparently the only thing that you will take as being proof.
Jhn 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Jhn 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Apparently Christ has sheep of another fold (the Gentiles), which have already been given to Him even though they have not come to Him. And the antithesis:

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

It had not been granted of these, for they were not given to Christ. Thus, they did not believe. That is what John 6 teaches and John 10 teaches. If you still wish to take one verse out of context so you can deny the entire underlying premise, then I suppose you may continue. But I will make it clear to others here that you are doing so, and ultimately leading others away from what the text clearly says.
 
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Hmm... When I think of the word draw, it brings to mind the thought of casting nets as a fisherman. The fisherman casts out his net, then draws it back to himself, bringing in the fish. Like Jesus said of his disciples when he told them that they would be fishers of men. So, to proclaim the Gospel is like casting out the net, the net being a metaphorical Holy Spirit as it captures the "fish"; then the "fish" are drawn in. Do the fish choose to go into the net, or are they simply caught?
 
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