No one—even God—can know in advance what a free-will agent will choose

[MDC]

I don't mind someone being a Calvinist and representing their views on the matter. But I do mind when someone is spreading misinformation.

I will reply in terms of Classical Arminianism, as that is my position.

a. Of course the "free willer" (a horrible term to describe an Arminian) believes God turns all things together for his good purposes. We have it a little easier to believe this because we don't claim that part of God's good purposes is to deliberately damn people into hell for eternity, against their wishes or choice. Instead, what it means that God turns things according to his purpose, is that he can bring good things even out of evil things. He can turn sorrow into a moment where people grow into compassion towards others, even though he didn't cause or want anyone to experience sorrow.

b. No, the root of Arminianism is not Pelagianism. This is historically and factually incorrect. Especially if you're speaking about Classical Arminianism.

Classical Arminianism teaches that God does the saving through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit which provides the faith to believe in Christ. It is the Spirit which frees the will to believe. Man is not saved by his free will but by Christ and faith in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, which is what the Bible says everywhere.

The Calvinist is in the position where they ground salvation on predestination. In other words, salvation is effectively conditioned on God's choosing, which you would call Unconditional Grace. However, the bulk of the Biblical passages condition salvation on faith in Christ, not on God's hidden will or predetermined choosing. And this is a faith that God Himself supplies when people hear the Word. (Romans 10:17.)

It is simply good exegesis to take the easier to understand passages at face value, and work on the more difficult passages in light of the easier ones. Since predestination is mentioned far less in the scriptures than faith in Christ, I think it's clear that the condition of salvation is faith in Christ and not predestination.

This is why salvation is God's work from end to end. Jesus died for us all, and I didn't. God supplied the faith for me to believe, and I didn't. God poured out His grace over me, and I had nothing to do with that. Saying that my receiving of the gift of salvation gives me glory is ridiculous. Did I come up with salvation? No. Did I die for my own sins? No. Did I have faith to believe? No, it was given to me. Did I pour grace on myself? No. Did I free my own will up from sin so I could believe? No, the Holy Spirit did that. Did I enlighten my own mind and heart with the Truth? No. Did I come to believe on my own, with no one telling me the gospel? No. Did I make up the gospel? No. So where possibly could I attain glory? For simply saying, "Yes, I'll take it."? A "Yes" that could only be said because of the Spirit Himself freeing my will up in that moment to do so? That's like saying that if I was the perfect husband, my wife gets some glory for saying "yes" to my proposal to be married. There is no glory for man in salvation except the glory that God graciously gives us when He will at last glorify us, as the scriptures say. It is grace from start to finish - and it is grace for all.

c.

Absolutely untrue. Here's a quote from Arminius himself:

"In this state [he is speaking of the fallen state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.

"... in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace."

Roger Olson, a well-known Arminian, describes it as such:

"ARMINIANS together with Calvinists affirm total depravity because of the fall of humanity in Adam and its inherited consequence of a corrupted nature in bondage to sin. A common myth about Arminianism is that it promotes an optimistic anthropology.”

As a Classical Arminian I can categorically state that I believe in the total depravity of man and the bondage of the will to sin. The only way the will is freed is by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. What is meant by 'prevenient grace' is that the Word of God, the gospel, is the power of salvation. (Romans 1:16,17.) When a person hears this gospel, it gives faith to those who encounter it, because the Spirit works through it, and that faith is enough to believe on Christ and be saved. This is all the work of God.

Please do not misrepresent Arminianism. Study it and get to know its intricacies, otherwise you will not be effective. Please stop re-iterating the myth that Arminianism is Pelagian. Pelagius taught none of this. He believed man's will was perfectly unscathed through the fall, and people could live moral, upright lives without the aid of the Spirit or of grace. Jesus, then, becomes an example to follow and not a saviour to believe in.

I'll grant you that there are many forms of Arminianism today, or that many (even heretical) ideas tend to fall under the umbrella of "Arminianism", but at the same time there are a lot of heresies and weird forms of Calvinism out there. But go look at Classical Arminianism. You'll be surprised by what you find.

Misinformation? Like saying God damns people to hell for eternity against their wishes or choice? This statement alone tells me you do not believe in mans total depravity and mans wretched sinfulness. I thought you believe, as a classical free willer, man is totally depraved and dead in sin? Man is naturally evil and dead in sin. Therefore is inclined only to evil and DESIRES NOT the things of God! So sinful man is justly condemned for his sin. You sound pelagian to me. As Pelagius being a humanist, could not believe that God would command that which it was impossible for men in their own flesh to perform. Reasoned that man ultimately, according to free will, could choose to do good over evil.. as the Spirit of grace is only a facilitator. So is there something good in man that warranted such a foolish statement above? And if you truly believed God turns all things according to His purpose and will, then you would believe God Sovereignly decrees all things for His glory.. but you don’t. As you exalt the will of man as being sovereign over Gods will. And God only being a reactionary force by the things foreseen. And if the Spirit provides the faith to believe, and not all believe, how do you deny predestination or election? If faith is the result of regeneration, what makes the believing and unbelieving person differ? Sovereign grace or the act of mans will? If faith is the work of God, then why do you reject elective grace? Because you do believe that mans will is the grounds for salvation and not the grace of God. As Gods grace is resistable correct? This is why the false notion of prevenient grace is nothing more than a diversion for full blown pelagianism. You still elevate mans will above Gods merciful will to save those whom He has chosen to save in Christ. Your simple rejection of predestination shows a denial of grace altogether. And is why you must condition salvation on the sinner as all free willers do. Faith via regeneration, is the gift of grace. Grace and mercy are the only grounds for salvation in Christ. Faith is the result and MEANS by which the elect are united to Christ. Not the cause. If you deny unconditional election, then logically you deny that salvation is by grace alone. By saying salvation is conditioned on faith, you are essentially saying salvation is determined by the act of “free will”. Because grace is resistable. As you view grace as a help or assistance correct? And not the determining factor in salvation. And cannot see that grace alone is what makes the saved and unsaved differ. Arminianism is heresy. And rightfully condemned as such by the Synod of Dort. As these free willers deny the gospel of grace that saves

 

[John tower]

KJV: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Seems even KJV says the same thing. God gives you the will to do his work. So you have a will, and He is sanctifying and transforming it.

You have a reading problem : it says : For it is GOD WHO WORKS IN you both to will and do : it is GOD , not us : Nowhere does it say he gives us our own free will : IT IS GOD : do not wrest God’s word like this trying to exalt man with God’s work : IT IS GOD ! ! !

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nowhere does it say in Rom 13(1) that he is talking only about govt authorities , he is just using this as one example : he of course is over all things in existence : Eph 1(11) : Stop wresting scripture to try and make it say things that it clearly does not : don’t add things like this unto scripture or God may add something unto you : be careful !

I spoke directly in context and meaning as the text says let’s see what it actually says

“ Romans 13 - 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: ...6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”

Obviously the “power” here is referring to governments and ordinances of government in context. This is very basic and not a difficult passage to interpret.

John , what does the word “power” mean”? Are you aware?

There are different words for “power” in the NT

We read the meaning of “power” in Romans 13 as 1849 in Greek- authority, privilege, magistrate, potentate,

But the word “power” as used here is a different word

“ Acts 1 - 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

The word here for “power” is different meaning 1411 in Greek- miraculous power, force,


The word power as you use it in Romans 13 is not the same word.

We also read of Satan’s working and powerful signs and the power of Satan

But Satans power not God’s and the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost was to attribute the works of God to the works of Satan we must be very careful in our doctrine John.


And woe to men when they call evil good and good evil

Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!


Take heed. Consider,

“ 2 Timothy 2 - 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

You have a reading problem : it says : For it is GOD WHO WORKS IN you both to will and do : it is GOD , not us : Nowhere does it say he gives us our own free will : IT IS GOD : do not wrest God’s word like this trying to exalt man with God’s work : IT IS GOD ! ! !

God works in believers to their good if they abide in him but the unbelievers know not God

Context again speaking to believers. And scripture says

“ 1 Corinthians 3 - 9. For we are labourers together with God:...”

 

[Kaon]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

Further comments by the person quoted above follow:

"For example, suppose God knows you are going to eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. That implies that you CANNOT refrain from eating an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. For if through your free will, you could refrain and did refrain, then God didn't know that you would eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow."

"I should also make clear that God not knowing in advance what we will choose in no way implies that he is not omniscient. For God DOES know all that is possible to know. No one can know the future (in the absolute sense of "know") because the future does not yet exist, and so there is nothing to know."

Think about this quantum mechanically. If the Observer God is able to see all possible eigenvectors of "macrostates and microstates" of universal phenomena (simultaneously,) He is also able to see the evolution of those states simultaneously.

That doesn't mean the wavefunction(s) of the individual's collective phenomenological "states" collapse into one state of certainty. On the contrary, the individual is still in quantum fog, and has the ability to observe and take on a particular state that collapses the other possibilities/eigenfunctions.

The Observer observes this collapse in that particular vector - as well as maintaining the certainty in the choice of the individual - consequentially collapsing its wavefunctions to 100% probability in a particular state (choice made.) Even the perturbations are not affected in a way that would nullify the free will of the individual observer from its own reference frame.


An observer does not affect the fields unless the observer's action is a part of the system. If you are saying God's very existence nullifies free will, then that would be incorrect. Of course, God has the power not only to know all possible states without individual alignment of those states, but He also has the power to affect any state while at the same time knowing fully how it will affect the entire field system.


tl;dr: God's omnipotence does not violate any free-will laws of creation/man.

 

[HatGuy]

You have a reading problem : it says : For it is GOD WHO WORKS IN you both to will and do : it is GOD , not us : Nowhere does it say he gives us our own free will : IT IS GOD : do not wrest God’s word like this trying to exalt man with God’s work : IT IS GOD ! ! !

I did not say the scripture says he gives us our own free will, only that he transforms our will. God works in us to WILL.

 

[HatGuy]

Misinformation? Like saying God damns people to hell for eternity against their wishes or choice? This statement alone tells me you do not believe in mans total depravity and mans wretched sinfulness. I thought you believe, as a classical free willer, man is totally depraved and dead in sin? Man is naturally evil and dead in sin. Therefore is inclined only to evil and DESIRES NOT the things of God! So sinful man is justly condemned for his sin. You sound pelagian to me. As Pelagius being a humanist, could not believe that God would command that which it was impossible for men in their own flesh to perform. Reasoned that man ultimately, according to free will, could choose to do good over evil.. as the Spirit of grace is only a facilitator. So is there something good in man that warranted such a foolish statement above? And if you truly believed God turns all things according to His purpose and will, then you would believe God Sovereignly decrees all things for His glory.. but you don’t. As you exalt the will of man as being sovereign over Gods will. And God only being a reactionary force by the things foreseen. And if the Spirit provides the faith to believe, and not all believe, how do you deny predestination or election? If faith is the result of regeneration, what makes the believing and unbelieving person differ? Sovereign grace or the act of mans will? If faith is the work of God, then why do you reject elective grace? Because you do believe that mans will is the grounds for salvation and not the grace of God. As Gods grace is resistable correct? This is why the false notion of prevenient grace is nothing more than a diversion for full blown pelagianism. You still elevate mans will above Gods merciful will to save those whom He has chosen to save in Christ. Your simple rejection of predestination shows a denial of grace altogether. And is why you must condition salvation on the sinner as all free willers do. Faith via regeneration, is the gift of grace. Grace and mercy are the only grounds for salvation in Christ. Faith is the result and MEANS by which the elect are united to Christ. Not the cause. If you deny unconditional election, then logically you deny that salvation is by grace alone. By saying salvation is conditioned on faith, you are essentially saying salvation is determined by the act of “free will”. Because grace is resistable. As you view grace as a help or assistance correct? And not the determining factor in salvation. And cannot see that grace alone is what makes the saved and unsaved differ. Arminianism is heresy. And rightfully condemned as such by the Synod of Dort. As these free willers deny the gospel of grace that saves

/ conversation.

 

[Theophan]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

Further comments by the person quoted above follow:

"For example, suppose God knows you are going to eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. That implies that you CANNOT refrain from eating an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. For if through your free will, you could refrain and did refrain, then God didn't know that you would eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow."

"I should also make clear that God not knowing in advance what we will choose in no way implies that he is not omniscient. For God DOES know all that is possible to know. No one can know the future (in the absolute sense of "know") because the future does not yet exist, and so there is nothing to know."

You have several false assumptions.

1) God is not bound by past, present, or future. He is outside of time. God cannot be mutable in any way, even with respect to time, otherwise, He no longer can be called God since the essence of God is perfect. What is mutable is not perfect.

1a) God is the creator of all things, He is above all things. Thus, He created time and is above time. Moreover, He is not bound by time since He is not contained in time. If He created all things, fills all things, and upholds all things, then it is impossible to say that God is not in the future or the past or the present. God preceded time; He transcends time. The future exists because God exists. Hence, He also knows all things about the future. Furthermore, "the future" is only applicable to us because we are bound by time, whereas God is timeless. The laws of time do not apply to Him who is not within time.

1a) God is infinite. Infinity does not have a beginning or an end. Therefore, we say that God is uncreated. We also say that He is immortal since what is perfect cannot be subject to change or have an end.

2) You say that God is not omniscient. At best, you incorrectly define omniscience. If He is not all-knowing, then it is reasonable to say He does not know the future with absolute knowledge. But because He does know all things, not merely all possibilities as you purport (and where in the world do you get that?), then He knows exactly what you will think and do in the future. He is also present in the future to be able to know these things because He exists outside of time. He could not be deemed perfect if He lacked perfect knowledge of all things, not just possibilities. He could not possess perfect knowledge of all things if He did not absolutely know what people would do in the future. And if God lacks perfect absolute knowledge, He is not omniscient, and therefore He is not God.

3) You somehow draw a link between absolute foreknowledge and a violation of free will. You do not adequately explain your logic. Your ice cream example doesn't make sense at all, and I do not see how it supports your position whatsoever. If I know that you're going to do something, that doesn't mean that I have controlled your will so that you couldn't be free to make a choice. Your reasoning doesn't make sense.

 

[zoidar]

quoted:

"The bible says to trust in God, and not lean unto our own understanding : PROVERBS 3(5) : ” Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding , ” Why does the bible tell us not to lean unto our own understanding ? : 1 CORINTHIANS 13(12) : ” For now we see through a glass darkly , for NOW WE KNOW IN PART . ” This is why the bible tells us not to lean unto our own understanding : Because we presently have very limited understanding, and we will think that we see something wrong, WHEN THERE IS IN FACT NOTHING WRONG, WE JUST THINK THAT WE SEE SOMETHING WRONG , BECAUSE OF OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING .

A perfect example of this is the teaching that evil could not possibly have a good purpose in God’s creation : So we say that God has nothing to do with it . Well for starters the Bible clearly states that GOD CREATED EVIL : ISAIAH 45(7) : ” I make peace AND CREATE EVIL , I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS. ” Well the question of course arises : Why did God create evil ? If we read GENESIS 3(22) : We see that GOD HIMSELF SAYS : ” The man is become as one of us , to know good AND EVIL ! ” So ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF , EVIL DOES INDEED HAVE A GOOD PURPOSE : IT IS PART OF BECOMING AS A GOD ! But if we lean unto our own understanding , we don’t understand this, and we think that evil is only bad : So we then say that God did not create it , thus now SAYING THAT GOD DID NOT CREATE ALL THINGS : ” A SUPER SERIOUS BLASPHEMY .” We say that God does not want evil in his creation : Yet evil is still there : THUS IMPLYING THAT GOD IS NOT EVEN IN CONTROL OF HIS OWN CREATION : Because according to them all these things are there that God supposedly does not want : YET ANOTHER SUPER SERIOUS BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD ! The truth of course is that GOD CREATED ALL THINGS , INCLUDING EVIL : AND THEY ALL WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD in his great plan , and God is in absolute control, even if we don’t understand it yet !
!"

I shorted down the quote a bit to adress a few things. First I would say that you are accusing arminians of leaning on their own understanding, instead of reading what the bible says. Actually I could say the same thing about you. Isaiah 45:7 does not say God created evil. That's a misunderstanding caused by bad translation.

Isaiah 45:7 says: "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

Wellbeing or peace is not the opposite of evil, is it?

Isaiah 45:7 has nothing to do with God being the creator of evil. I find it really hard to understand how someone actually can believe that God created evil, when God "is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). What He can do though is create calamity for his own purpose, ex. the 10 plagues of Egypt.

I feel there is a huge missunderstanding going on here about God's character who like it says IS: "LIGHT and LOVE". God hates EVIL! How can someone believe that He is the creator of something He hates. Absolutly crazy and makes no sense.

God allows evil to be here until the day of judgement (for the reason I believe for as many as possible to be saved). But ultimately He has allready dealed with evil: "Now judgment is upon this world; the ruler of this world will be cast out" (John 12:31). God can't just erase evil, if He did He would have to kill Adam and Eve from the start. So He sent his Son to redeem the world (cast out all evil) from the sin of Adam.

 

[John tower]

I spoke directly in context and meaning as the text says let’s see what it actually says

“ Romans 13 - 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: ...6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”

Obviously the “power” here is referring to governments and ordinances of government in context. This is very basic and not a difficult passage to interpret.

John , what does the word “power” mean”? Are you aware?

There are different words for “power” in the NT

We read the meaning of “power” in Romans 13 as 1849 in Greek- authority, privilege, magistrate, potentate,

But the word “power” as used here is a different word

“ Acts 1 - 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

The word here for “power” is different meaning 1411 in Greek- miraculous power, force,


The word power as you use it in Romans 13 is not the same word.

We also read of Satan’s working and powerful signs and the power of Satan

But Satans power not God’s and the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost was to attribute the works of God to the works of Satan we must be very careful in our doctrine John.


And woe to men when they call evil good and good evil

Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!


Take heed. Consider,

“ 2 Timothy 2 - 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Again Nowhere does it say he was only referring to govt authorities : he is over all things : If you keep adding unto God’s word you will get into trouble : He is before ALL THINGS : not just govt authotities : having ears they hear not :The false teachings of the churches are blocking your ears !

 

[John tower]

I shorted down the quote a bit to adress a few things. First I would say that you are accusing arminians of leaning on their own understanding, instead of reading what the bible says. Actually I could say the same thing about you. Isiaha 45:7 does not say God created evil. That's a misunderstanding caused by bad translation.

Isaiah 45:7 says: "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

Wellbeing or peace is not the oposite of evil, is it?

Isaiah 45:7 has nothing to do with God being the creator of evil. I find it really hard to understand how someone actually can believe that God created evil, when God "is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). What He can do though is create calamity for his own purpose, ex. the 10 plagues of Egypt.

I feel there is a huge missunderstanding going on here about God's character who like it says IS: "LIGHT and LOVE". God hates EVIL! How can someone believe that he is the creator of something he hates. Absolutly crazy and makes no sense.

God allows evil to be here until the day of judgement (for the reason I believe for as many as possible to be saved). But ultimately he has allready dealed with evil: "Now judgment is upon this world; the ruler of this world will be cast out" (John 12:31). God can't just erase evil, if he did he would have to kill Adam and Eve from the start. So He sent his Son to redeem the world (cast out all evil) from the sin of Adam.

Changing evil to calamity is a very serious blasphemy : It is you with blasphemous translation : It says all over the bible God created ALL things including evil : You are blaspheming against God saying he did not create all things because you think you see something wrong : you obviously did not understand the bible study : Stop blaspheming against God saying that he did not create all things : you are on serious blasphemy attacking God : re study the class and open your eyes !

 

[John tower]

I did not say the scripture says he gives us our own free will, only that he transforms our will. God works in us to WILL.

Get it through your head : We have no will : ALL things are worked after God’s will : We are just clay in the potters hands : He began the work , not us , and he will finish it , not us : Stop exalting man with power that he does not have : Jer 10(23) , Eph 2(8-10) ! !

 

[zoidar]

It takes more to blaspheme God than missunderstanding.

John, why is it so important to you that God created evil?

 

[zoidar]

God created everything from the beginning, and created it all good.

"God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good" (Gen 1:31)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again Nowhere does it say he was only referring to govt authorities : he is over all things : If you keep adding unto God’s word you will get into trouble : He is before ALL THINGS : not just govt authotities : having ears they hear not :The false teachings of the churches are blocking your ears !

Not sure if you actually read and considered what I wrote.

Paul is dealing with the churches attitude towards civil governments, taxes, tribute, law and order etc. And talked by about the ordinances of governments that God has put in place.Ordinnces means institutions and arrangements.

The word “power” there means authority and refers to governments in context not the same word used for the power of the Spirit

If you simply read the text you will see how clear it is .

I think spiritual eyes are needed for you in this case

““ Romans 13 - 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3. For rulersare not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: ...6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”

You are totally wrong here

 

[John tower]

Not sure if you actually read and considered what I wrote.

Paul is dealing with the churches attitude towards civil governments, taxes, tribute, law and order etc. And talked by about the ordinances of governments that God has put in place.Ordinnces means institutions and arrangements.

The word “power” there means authority and refers to governments in context not the same word used for the power of the Spirit

If you simply read the text you will see how clear it is .

I think spiritual eyes are needed for you in this case

““ Romans 13 - 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3. For rulersare not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: ...6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.”

You are totally wrong here

If you are trying to say that God is only in control of govt authorities , You are totally lost : Eph 1(11): He is before all things , and by him all things consist : What part of all things do you not understand : this is not just govt authorities : This is all things : How blind can you be ? All things means all things !

 

[John tower]

If you are trying to say that God is only in control of govt authorities , You are totally lost : Eph 1(11): He is before all things , and by him all things consist : What part of all things do you not understand : this is not just govt authorities : This is all things : How blind can you be ? All things means all things !

The verse is Colossians 1(17) !

 

[John tower]

It takes more to blaspheme God than missunderstanding.

John, why is it so important to you that God created evil?

Because people keep blaspheming God By saying he did not create all things such as evil and scripture clearly says that he did : Isaiah 45(7), Prov 16(4) : I must expose that lie about God !

 

[John tower]

Because people keep blaspheming God By saying he did not create all things such as evil and scripture clearly says that he did : Isaiah 45(7), Prov 16(4) : I must expose that lie about God !

Modern new perverted , satanic bible translations change this : The KJV is the purest translation : these new translations are flat out lies !

 

[John tower]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an
( 12 ) : ” DID CHRIST COME TO SAVE EVERYBODY ? “
September 4, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment


JOHN 18 ( 37 ) : ” FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I INTO THE WORLD , THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS UNTO THE TRUTH : EVERYONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HEARETH MY VOICE ! ” What does : Everyone that is OF THE TRUTH mean in this verse ? Is not everyone of the truth : Or are just a select few OF THE TRUTH ? Over and over Christ repeated : He that hath ears to hear, let him hear ! Was it not possible for all to hear, or are just a select few enabled to hear ? Christ said that his sheep could hear his voice , but others could not hear his word : JOHN 10 ( 27 ) : ” My sheep hear my voice . ” and JOHN 8 ( 43 ) : ” Why do you not understand my speech , even because you ” CANNOT ” hear my word . ” So then , how are some able to hear, and others CANNOT ? : MATTHEW 11 ( 25 ) : ” I thank thee o father , Lord of heaven and earth , because THOU HAST HID THESE THINGS from the wise and prudent , and HAST REVEALED THEM UNTO BABES . ” and MATTHEW 13 ( 11 ) : ” It is GIVEN UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven , but TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN ! ” Christ clearly said in these verses that God has purposely hidden his truth from some and revealed it unto others . JOHN 12 ( 39&40 ) : ” 39 : ” Therefore THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE , because that Esaias said again . ” 40 : ” HE hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart that they should not see . ” These two verses clearly state that there are those who just CANNOT , not would not , but COULD NOT believe because GOD CLOSED THEIR HEARTS , AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS ! ” JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM . ” and JOHN 6 ( 37 ) : ” ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME shall come to me . ” and PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE ! ” : These verses clearly state that ONLY THOSE THAT GOD DRAWS OR CHOOSES CAN COME TO CHRIST : NOT EVERYBODY ! CHRIST CLEARLY STATED THAT HE WAS NOT HERE FOR ALL , but only certain chosen ones : JOHN 13 ( 18 ) : ” I speak NOT OF YOU ALL , I know WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN ! ” MATTHEW 22 ( 14 ) : ” Many are called but FEW ARE CHOSEN ! ” : Christ clearly stated here that his people were CHOSEN , and that they were THE FEW , NOT EVERYBODY ! These few chosen are referred to in the bible as THE ELECT : MARK 13 ( 20 ) : ” FOR THE ELECT’S SAKE , WHOM HE HATH CHOSEN. “, and CHRIST CAME HERE ONLY FOR THIS ELECT, and does things ONLY FOR THIS ELECT . NOT THE WHOLE WORLD : MARK 13 ( 20 ) : ” And except that the Lord had shortened those days , no flesh should be saved , but FOR THE ELECT’S SAKE , WHOM HE HATH CHOSEN , he hath shortened the days . ” and MATTHEW 24 ( 31 ) : ” He shall send his angels , and they shall gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds . ” CHRIST PRAYS ONLY FOR HIS ELECT , NOT THE WORLD : JOHN 17 ( 9 ) : ” I pray for THEM , I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD , but for THEM WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME . ” Christ also told us not to give his pearls of truth to everybody but just for his elect : MATTHEW 7 ( 6 ) : ” Give not that which is holy unto the dogs , neither cast ye your pearls before swine . ” He told us go rather to the lost sheep, NOT EVERYBODY ! So this teaching in the main stream churches that Christ loves everybody , and came to save everybody is just another one of their endless lies : ROMANS 9 ( 13&18 ) : 13 : ” As it is written : Jacob have I loved BUT ESAU HAVE I HATED . ” 18 : ” Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will HE HARDENETH . ” If it were true that Christ came to save everybody, this would mean that Christ was a failure because obviously millions reject Christ and are not saved : BUT THE REAL TRUTH IS THAT CHRIST CAME ONLY FOR HIS ELECT , AND NONE OF THEM ARE LOST, AND CHRIST IS A 100% SUCCESS IN HIS TRUE MINISTRY IN HIS ELECT : JOHN 6 ( 39 ) : ” This is the father’s will , that OF ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHOULD ” LOSE NOTHING ! “


argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

Further comments by the person quoted above follow:

"For example, suppose God knows you are going to eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. That implies that you CANNOT refrain from eating an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow. For if through your free will, you could refrain and did refrain, then God didn't know that you would eat an ice-cream cone at 2 P.M. tomorrow."

"I should also make clear that God not knowing in advance what we will choose in no way implies that he is not omniscient. For God DOES know all that is possible to know. No one can know the future (in the absolute sense of "know") because the future does not yet exist, and so there is nothing to know."