No Mr. Pratt, the second amendment is not about shooting political foes.

doubtingmerle

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grasping the after wind

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Here is an interesting article of a gun advocate suggesting that the second amendment in not just for hunting, but for shooting Democrats.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/05/leader-of-gun-group-praised-by-ted-cruz-said-th/203901

Really? Have we come to this? And Ted Cruz is going to praise this man?

Differences of opinion should be settled by votes, not by citizen militias. See also:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ry-is-the-worst-pro-gun-argument-ever/272734/

The purpose of the Second amendment, written by men, many of whom had been involved in some way in carrying out a successful armed revolt against what they considered to be a tyrannical government, was to arm the citizenry against the possibility of such a tyrannical government. No one at the Constitutional Convention was in the least concerned about preserving the right to bear arms for fear of not being able to go hunting. i seriously doubt that they would have agreed that voting would have been sufficient to have severed their ties with the British. That being said, going around shooting people that are your political enemies is not in any way the same thing as revolting against a tyrannical government. The existence of crazy people who invoke a concept in an invalid way as an excuse for ridiculous behavior does not invalidate the concept it only shows that crazy people are susceptible to invalid reasoning.
 
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AirPo

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The purpose of the Second amendment, written by men, many of whom had been involved in some way in carrying out a successful armed revolt against what they considered to be a tyrannical government, was to arm the citizenry against the possibility of such a tyrannical government. No one at the Constitutional Convention was in the least concerned about preserving the right to bear arms for fear of not being able to go hunting. i seriously doubt that they would have agreed that voting would have been sufficient to have severed their ties with the British. That being said, going around shooting people that are your political enemies is not in any way the same thing as revolting against a tyrannical government. The existence of crazy people who invoke a concept in an invalid way as an excuse for ridiculous behavior does not invalidate the concept it only shows that crazy people are susceptible to invalid reasoning.
Actually it shows valid reasoning is susceptible to crazy people.
 
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doubtingmerle

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The purpose of the Second amendment, written by men, many of whom had been involved in some way in carrying out a successful armed revolt against what they considered to be a tyrannical government, was to arm the citizenry against the possibility of such a tyrannical government. No one at the Constitutional Convention was in the least concerned about preserving the right to bear arms for fear of not being able to go hunting. i seriously doubt that they would have agreed that voting would have been sufficient to have severed their ties with the British. That being said, going around shooting people that are your political enemies is not in any way the same thing as revolting against a tyrannical government. The existence of crazy people who invoke a concept in an invalid way as an excuse for ridiculous behavior does not invalidate the concept it only shows that crazy people are susceptible to invalid reasoning.
Uh, but if you think your political enemies are tyrannical, then is it open season to shoot them? Your reply seems to say it is.

And who gets to decide if a political foe is tyrannical? If you were to decide that your governor or mayor were tyrannical, do you then become at liberty to shoot them? I certainly don't think so. Please let me know your opinion on that question.

The article from the Atlantic in my second link explains historical militias. During the American revolution militias were part of the fight, but they were basically organized groups under the leadership of what had been the state government before Britain intervened. So there was a "legitimate" central government and a militia working with that government. And in the big scheme of things, those militias were minor compared with Washington's army and foreign military help.

But such militias are a far cry from the go ahead to allow groups to organize themselves to attack a sitting American government whenever they think that government is tyrannical.
 
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doubtingmerle

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NightHawkeye

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Correct.

And in your opinion, if you judge that your governor is tyrannical, does this amendment give you the right to shoot him? I think not. What do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

The Battle of Athens (sometimes called the McMinn County War) was a rebellion led by citizens in Athens and Etowah, Tennessee, United States, against the local government in August 1946. The citizens, including some World War II veterans, accused the local officials of political corruption and voter intimidation. The event is sometimes cited by firearms ownership advocates as an example of the value of the Second Amendment in combating tyranny.
...
The recovered ballots certified the election of the five GI Non-Partisan League candidates. Among the reforms instituted was a change in the method of payment and a $5,000 salary cap for officials. In the initial momentum of victory, gambling houses in collusion with the Cantrell regime were raided and their operations demolished. Deputies of the prior administration resigned and were replaced
.​

In the interest of full disclosure, I feel compelled to mention that I graduated from McMinn County High School in Athens, Tennessee.
Winking_smiley.gif
 
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grasping the after wind

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"doubtingmerle, post: 68083797, member: 6687"]Uh, but if you think your political enemies are tyrannical, then is it open season to shoot them? Your reply seems to say it is.

My reply could not be seriously interpreted in that way. To do so shows a predisposition to stereotyping that will not lead to understanding of another person's position but stand in the way of it.

And who gets to decide if a political foe is tyrannical? If you were to decide that your governor or mayor were tyrannical, do you then become at liberty to shoot them? I certainly don't think so. Please let me know your opinion on that question.

No , you don't get to go around shooting people you don't agree with. You only get to defend yourself. Having the right to bear arms is not the same as having the right to assassinate people. The idea behind an armed citizenry was so they could defend themselves against armed assault by a tyrannical government not so they could attack those that they think might be tyrannical. In the day of huge standing armies and tactical weapons, would end up in massacres of those citizens that resisted but the men @ the Constitutional Convention did not foresee( and could not, and would not have believed possible with all the barriers they erected against it happening) the mega growth of the Federal Government's military capacity or the weakness of the individual state governments. Nonetheless the Second Amendment has not been repealed and the right to armed self defense remains a right that the Constitution guarantees the government will not infringe upon.

The article from the Atlantic in my second link explains historical militias. During the American revolution militias were part of the fight, but they were basically organized groups under the leadership of what had been the state government before Britain intervened. So there was a "legitimate" central government and a militia working with that government. And in the big scheme of things, those militias were minor compared with Washington's army and foreign military help.

But such militias are a far cry from the go ahead to allow groups to organize themselves to attack a sitting American government whenever they think that government is tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson would not have agreed with that last statement. It was his oipinion that such armed insurrgencies ought ot occur occcasionally as all governments will tend toward tyranny at some point and need to be removed. I personally think Jefferson was a hypocritical blowhard but he may have had a point about all governments tending toward tyranny. As for militias being anachronistic, I agree, but that does not mean that the principle of self defense has disappeared or that one has no right to own one's chosen means of self defense. Owning a firearm should not be a problem what one does with that firearm is what ought to be a cause for concern. Those that are responsible ought not to be punished for the crimes of the irresponsible or malevolent. The trade off of freedom is risk. If we do not allow the possibility of bad things happening we cannot live in a free society.
 
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doubtingmerle

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No , you don't get to go around shooting people you don't agree with. You only get to defend yourself. Having the right to bear arms is not the same as having the right to assassinate people.
OK, so you disagree with Mr. Pratt's comments in the link in the opening post, where he said the second amendment was designed for dealing with the current president and his administration? If you agree with me that Mr. Pratt is wrong to say that, you could just agree with me that what Mr. Pratt is saying is wrong.​
 
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Avid

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... No , you don't get to go around shooting people you don't agree with...
This seems to have gotten a little off. It is not a matter of agreement, but a matter of meeting oppression and corruption, that has or will eventually, affect the citizen, with appropriate force to end the abuse.

There are disturbing cases on both sides of the discussion, and we can see right or wrong in them. The "Battle of Athens" in Tennessee is a good example for the discussion. This was not the intent of killing of people who disagreed, but meeting corruption with a resolve to end it that was at issue.
 
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doubtingmerle

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

The Battle of Athens (sometimes called the McMinn County War) was a rebellion led by citizens in Athens and Etowah, Tennessee, United States, against the local government in August 1946.

You quote an incident when corrupt officials prevented ballot results from being revealed and it was resolved with a gunfight to reclaim the ballot boxes. Interesting solution, but I think there were better options.

But regardless, do you agree with Mr. Pratt as quoted in the link in the OP that "the second amendment was designed for people just like the president and his administration"?​
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Hopefully someone will post when open season begins. (Thanks in advance to the person who does.)

Is there a notification list???

ITT, people joking about shooting Democrats. This guy's talking about terrorism, guys. Also, he's probably not joking.
 
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Armoured

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Here is an interesting article of a gun advocate suggesting that the second amendment in not just for hunting, but for shooting Democrats.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/05/leader-of-gun-group-praised-by-ted-cruz-said-th/203901

Really? Have we come to this? And Ted Cruz is going to praise this man?

Differences of opinion should be settled by votes, not by citizen militias. See also:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ry-is-the-worst-pro-gun-argument-ever/272734/
Make any comment about sensible gun control and get swamped with people claiming armed citizens are necessary to "keep the government in check". The several glaring errors to this "logic" notwithstanding, is there a way to understand such a claim in a way where it doesn't mean "I need my gun so I can shoot people with different political opinions"?

I grant, many using this argument probably haven't worked it all the way through to that end point, but it's the logical conclusion.
 
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NightHawkeye

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ITT, people joking about shooting Democrats. This guy's talking about terrorism, guys. Also, he's probably not joking.
Actually, he's not talking about terrorism and he's not talking about shooting Democrats.

The Battle of Athens, Tennessee (see my post #7) is a case in point where the second amendment right was exercised as intended and led to sweeping political reform, the dissolution of an absolutely corrupt political regime, with no loss in life.
 
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Uh, but if you think your political enemies are tyrannical, then is it open season to shoot them? Your reply seems to say it is.

And who gets to decide if a political foe is tyrannical? If you were to decide that your governor or mayor were tyrannical, do you then become at liberty to shoot them? I certainly don't think so. Please let me know your opinion on that question.

The article from the Atlantic in my second link explains historical militias. During the American revolution militias were part of the fight, but they were basically organized groups under the leadership of what had been the state government before Britain intervened. So there was a "legitimate" central government and a militia working with that government. And in the big scheme of things, those militias were minor compared with Washington's army and foreign military help.

But such militias are a far cry from the go ahead to allow groups to organize themselves to attack a sitting American government whenever they think that government is tyrannical.
Militia are there in case of a tyrannical force challenges the established rule of government. Not just our Federal government. If a force came into an area(elected or moved in) that would ignore the Constitution and prevent the checks and balances from correcting the problem, that is when you use firepower.
In a free society, everyone needs to get involved in government to get good leaders and Reps, but also to support the removal of bad leaders if required to maintain the rule of law. You revolt with a ballot not a firearm, until someone prevents you from using the ballot. You protest to make your Reps aware of your concerns, they act or don't act, you vote for or against them next election or you seek to peacefully have them removed if needed.
Armed revolution is the last resort. A civil society needs peaceful change of power.

Correct.

And in your opinion, if you judge that your governor is tyrannical, does this amendment give you the right to shoot him? I think not. What do you think?
As a last resort yes. There is many options and appeals to prevent the need to use force. Also it allows society to voice an opinion on the grievance. Either to support or deny it. The few crazies believed they do have the right to chose. They ignored all the checks and balances in our system and believed their right was the final decision. But society has to choose what is right and just. Society might not be the masses.
Revolutions have occurred with less then majority support. If enough people believe there is an injustice and the masses don't care or are bought off with "Handouts". Then a smaller society might need to shake the larger society foundation, to bring them back to reality.
When people will trade away rights for entitlements, then society will circle the drain.

Just to be sure, I am not saying we are ready for a revolution. We still have a lot of individual power to control our government. But the people are less and less concerned with the greater picture and more focused on what can this person running for office get for me.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country."
People working to improve a country makes a strong country. People working to improve themselves from the country will weaken it.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Because shooting Democrats is not terrorism.

:doh:
Because the only person talking about shooting Democrats is DoubtingMerle.

DoubtingMerle bought into Media Matters hysteria, added hyperbole and those on the left who don't bother to read instantly believe all that is posted in the OP. :doh:
 
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... Differences of opinion should be settled by votes, not by citizen militias...
The Second Amendment is not about settling differences of opinion with guns! I may have a difference of opinion that can be settled by voting, but an example was given where the very VOTES of the people were being subverted by a corrupt political machine. That should be held up as the proper example for the discussion. When someone takes this to mean "shoot instead of vote," we have a perversion that can only be meant to undermine the very protections the Constitution was written to enumerate.
 
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The Constitution is not pro-conservative, not pro-liberal, not pro-republican or Pro-democrat.
It is pro-America.
The 2nd amendment is not about shooting anyone political group. It is also not about shooting, or threatening to shoot college professors to intimidate them into giving good grades as another person on campus offered. "Best education your weapon can get."
Because if one acts outside of the law, then laws don't mean anything to that person. So just because they can bring guns on campus, doesn't mean they can threaten anyone with them.

The anti's are just suggesting these things out of fear mongering and panic. Because society is swinging back towards pro-gun. Millions of people are armed, how many law abiding people force professors to give good grades at gun point? How many law abiding citizens threaten political leaders at gun point?
Very few, if any.
They have nothing to offer, but fear itself.
 
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