No More Punishments

[HappyHope]

Do Protestant pastors usually preach God does not punish us instead we are only denied blessings when we sin? Or the consequences of our sins are just natural consequences and can’t be considered any kind of punishment from the Lord?

I understand the foundation of the theory comes from Jesus taking the punishment for our sins. Therefore, it is assumed we are never actually punished by the Lord in life. Anything that could be perceived as punishment is either a natural consequence that finally caught up with us or just the denial of a blessing.

I know one has to be careful not to assume every bad thing/ trial/ natural disaster is some kind of divine punishment. Some folks are all too ready to believe everything negative is a punishment or attack from Satan. I don’t blame pastors for working very had to refute such assumptions.

My question is do more pastors than not hold to a “God-does-not-punishment-anyone-this-side of-the-New-Testament” philosophy? Only a few pastors I have heard openly profess this but it may be the standard taught in churches these days. Not sure.

 

[Basil the Great]

I think that its is accurate to say that back in the 1700's and early 1800's, punishment was spoken of much more frequently by Protestant pastors than it is today.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @HappyHope, it may not seem like much of a difference, but the Bible speaks in terms of God disciplining us (His saints) for our good, rather than punishing us to make us pay for our sins. In fact, He disciplines us even when we have not sinned, again, for our good (to help us get our eyes off of this world and back onto Him and our future life with Him) .. e.g. Romans 8:28; Hebrews 12:7-11.

In fact, as pastor and theologian Charles Spurgeon said:

On the other hand, the NT speaks of punishment in regard to unbelievers in the age to come .. Matthew 25:46; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 7.

God bless you!

--David

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
.​

 

[HappyHope]

Hello @HappyHope, it may not seem like much of a difference, but the Bible speaks in terms of God disciplining us (His saints) for our good, rather than punishing us to make us pay for our sins. In fact, He disciplines us even when we have not sinned, again, for our good (to help us get our eyes off of this world and back onto Him and our future life with Him) .. e.g. Romans 8:28; Hebrews 12:7-11.

In fact, as pastor and theologian Charles Spurgeon said:

View attachment 285105​

On the other hand, the NT speaks of punishment in regard to unbelievers in the age to come .. Matthew 25:46; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 7.

God bless you!

--David

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
.​

Thanks! Love the quote from Charles Spurgeon. Perhaps "punishment" is too strong a word after all. I can see "discipline" as more shaping us and being more of a friendly term in comparison.

"Punishment" is a scary word I suppose and linked to sin and shame--not how we are supposed to walk through life with Jesus.

I am advocating for a walk not devoid of loving accountability, discipline, and a healthy fear(respect) of the Lord. Perhaps "punishment" sounds too doomy.

 

[HappyHope]

Still I cannot completely overlook the word "punishment" in favor of "discipline." In Acts 5:1-11 we have Ananias and Sapphira accused of lying to the Holy Spirt not just to the church as if they were in fact believers with understanding of the Holy Spirit. What happens to them does not seem to be "discipline" but "punishment." An argument could be made that they were not believers I suppose.

"Punishment" may sound archaic and anything but culturally-friendly but should it be considered obsolete and too Old Testamentee?

Not to mention the whole last Book of the New Testament...

 

[hedrick]

Speaking about traditional Protestant thought (i.e. not modern theology)

One difference between Catholics and Protestants originally was that Protestants believed that Christ took our punishment, and so none is left, and Catholics believed that some punishment remained for most people. Catholics agreed that Christ took our punishment, so what remained is typically seen more as purification than pure punishment.

In the past, there were lots of arguments between Catholics and Protestants about this, with Catholics being concerned that without the threat of remaining punishment, Protestants had no reason to obey God. Protestants generally responded that love for God was the proper motivation for obeying God. I haven't heard this kind of argument as much recently. I think many Protestants are in a kind of weird midpoint between traditional Catholics and Protestant views on this subject, which I'm not convinced is very well defined.

One of the responses speaks of this life. The punishment that Christ took was what would be due at the judgement. Many Protestants believe that God will discipline us in this life, and that could be called punishment. Whether additional punishment (i.e. retribution rather than discipline) occurs in this life is more controversial, but there are certainly some passages in Scripture that could be read that way.

Protestants don't talk about it a lot, but many do think there will be varying levels of reward. While it's not strictly a punishment, some people might end up on a very distant cloud in a very skimpy robe.

 

[hedrick]

Modern theology is less willing to speak of punishment, in part because of current evidence that the kind of obedience you get from punishment and threat of punishment isn’t the sort of obedience Jesus was looking for.

Current child-rearing guidelines say that if you have a proper relationship with your child, it’s almost always possible to avoid needing punishment. That would apply to God as well.

When talking about justification, traditional Protestantism tended to say that good behavior should come from love of God, and didn’t need the threat of hell. (Protestants said that in response to Catholic concerns that without purgatory, once someone was saved there was no reason to be good.) I agree, in part because I think fear-driven behavior tends to lead to legalism, i.e. to behavior that’s driven by fear of violating the rules. That is often not the same thing as behavior driven by caring about others.

The idea that Christ took our punishment is one theory of the atonement. There are other theories, both ancient and modern. I would favor other theories.

I am also very skeptical of the idea that God punishes us in this life. This tends to lead to people reading events as God’s reward and punishment. I think that tends to lead to superstition, and is also unfair to the many good people who live very hard lives.

 

[St_Worm2]

Still I cannot completely overlook the word "punishment" in favor of "discipline." In Acts 5:1-11 we have Ananias and Sapphira accused of lying to the Holy Spirt not just to the church as if they were in fact believers with understanding of the Holy Spirit. What happens to them does not seem to be "discipline" but "punishment." An argument could be made that they were not believers I suppose.

"Punishment" may sound archaic and anything but culturally-friendly but should it be considered obsolete and too Old Testamentee?

Not to mention the whole last Book of the New Testament...

Hello again HappyHope, we are not given a lot of information, but it seems reasonable to me that Ananias and Sapphira were well-known as believers (both to Christians and to non-Christians alike). I also believe that what they did so injured their witness that the Lord took them home (their deaths, sadly, becoming the greater witness to those both in and outside the church than their lives would have been).

This, again, is conjecture on my part, as we are not given enough information to know more.

As for the Book of Revelation, when punishment/judgment is in view, it always concerns the reprobate and/or the fallen angels, not the saints or the elect angels, yes?

--David

 

[Monksailor]

Most Protestant Pastors will tell you that their rule book, operator's manual, handbook is God's Word, the Bible, so let's ask God's Word: Acts 5:1-11. This Christian husband and wife lied and both fell immediately to the ground, DEAD.

And 1 Cor 11:27-30 ESV "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." This verse is why many believe that the sacrament of Communion should not be open to all only those who are worthy to partake of the sacrament and that it should be a quiet time of self-reflection and penitence. This judgement curse above is why many of the different Protestant churches I have partaken Communion at issue a warning of such in preparation of the sacrament. One who administrates it open to all and glosses over/ignores the Biblical intent of the sacrament could very well reap the curse mentioned above upon themselves, IMO.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Historically Christianity doesn't speak of God going around "punishing" people, though at different times, and depending on where you're looking, you'll still find that kind of language used. But, by and large, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox there is instead more a speaking about God's discipline, we read for example in the book of the Revelation where Jesus says He chastises those whom He loves. God's discipline, His correction, is the act of a loving parent.

Now, this does not mean that if something bad happens in our life that it means God is making it happen to us; this is a broken world and sometimes bad things happen just because they happen. So the point isn't to try and assign any specific circumstance to God. Rather, to understand that God isn't going around smiting people, He's not out to get us--to get anyone. He loves us, He has love for the whole world, that's why He sent His only-begotten Son.

When God does act to chastise us, to discipline us, it is always an act of love. In the same way that a parent sometimes needs to yell "no!" when a child is about to do something that will hurt them--a parent doesn't yell "no!" to punish or hurt the child, but to protect the child.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HappyHope]

Hello again HappyHope, we are not given a lot of information, but it seems reasonable to me that Ananias and Sapphira were well-known as believers (both to Christians and to non-Christians alike). I also believe that what they did so injured their witness that the Lord took them home (their deaths, sadly, becoming the greater witness to those both in and outside the church than their lives would have been).

This, again, is conjecture on my part, as we are not given enough information to know more.

As for the Book of Revelation, when punishment/judgment is in view, it always concerns the reprobate and/or the fallen angels, not the saints or the elect angels, yes?

--David

I'm with you with Ananias and Sapphira. I have never heard Revelation judgments as solely pertaining to all save believers.

 

[Junia]

Do Protestant pastors usually preach God does not punish us instead we are only denied blessings when we sin? Or the consequences of our sins are just natural consequences and can’t be considered any kind of punishment from the Lord?

I understand the foundation of the theory comes from Jesus taking the punishment for our sins. Therefore, it is assumed we are never actually punished by the Lord in life. Anything that could be perceived as punishment is either a natural consequence that finally caught up with us or just the denial of a blessing.

I know one has to be careful not to assume every bad thing/ trial/ natural disaster is some kind of divine punishment. Some folks are all too ready to believe everything negative is a punishment or attack from Satan. I don’t blame pastors for working very had to refute such assumptions.

My question is do more pastors than not hold to a “God-does-not-punishment-anyone-this-side of-the-New-Testament” philosophy? Only a few pastors I have heard openly profess this but it may be the standard taught in churches these days. Not sure.

I

God chastises us to help us grow. Not the same thing as wrath though. God doesn't get mad at His children like He does with unbelievers at the end of the age

 

[Junia]

I'm with you with Ananias and Sapphira. I have never heard Revelation judgments as solely pertaining to all save believers.

I
Yes God took them home early because their sin could damage the body. We are told some believers are delivered to Satan so that they can be saved in the end

 

[Junia]

I would say 99% of the time we are reaping what we sow in terms of consequences for doing good or bad.

 

[HappyHope]

I would say 99% of the time we are reaping what we sow in terms of consequences for doing good or bad.

I think we may often get warnings first before the consequences come in force. God is gracious.

 

[HappyHope]

I'm with you with Ananias and Sapphira. I have never heard Revelation judgments as solely pertaining to all save believers.

I think I meant all but saved believers. Sorry for any confusion. The Lord clearly warns certain churches complete with “or else.“ My point overall is this cheap grace business ranges from short-sighted to misguided.