no longer under the law?

[Andrewn]

When the OT law was still in effect, it did require perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified by it. Jesus did keep it perfectly in every way, else He was a sinner Himself. When Jesus was born, the OT law was still in effect so Jesus was born under that law (Galatians 4:4-5) and He was born to redeem them that were under the OT law. He kept it perfectly (Matthew 5:17; John 8:29) none could justly accuse Him of breaking the OT law (John 8:46). Whatever the OT law required Jesus kept it. It was prophesied He would be sinless (Isaiah 53:9) and the NT attests to the fact He was sinless (1 John 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 1:18-19) men could not be made righteous by the righteousness of Christ (Romans 5:18) if Christ was not righteous Himself. So any claim Jesus committed sin against the OT law is totally false.

You repeat what you said earlier without regard to my response. So, it's pointless to discuss with you. But even though your reasoning is faulty, the results are not far from the truth. In practice, you and I will be following similar rules, and this is what counts. I will not discuss this issue any further given your method of ignoring my arguments and apparently just pasting long polemics that you or others had previously written in a different conversation.

The harmony between Matthew 5:17-18, and Ephesians 2:15, is this. The purpose of the law of Moses was never to come to naught. Its original design would be perpetual. On the other hand, as a legal code, it would be abolished — cancelled by the Savior’s sacrificial death (cf. Col. 2:14ff.).

Funny that you pasted something that I agree with but it reads like a quotation that is not yours. And it supports my view against your polemics.

 

[HIM]

Beware of hearing a part of something that ends in an unbalanced picture. For example, beware of the antinomian (people who are against the law), who claim to be christian, but they live immoral lifestyles. Jesus came to free us from the power of sin as well as from the penalty of it.

The apostle Paul wrote "you are not under law, but under grace." It means that we no longer are condemned by the law, if we have faith in Christ. "There is no condemnation for those in Christ." Yet, he also wrote that we have an obligation to live by the Spirit. It means living our life with the faith that the Spirit is guiding us. Part of that is knowing the words of Jesus, and believing that the Spirit is moving in us to obey His words.

So Christians no longer use the law as a "have to do or else." Yet, we use it as a guide to show us how the sinful nature still tempts us to act against God's will. This realization forces us to appeal to God's power to help us overcome those temptations. This way of living is basic to the Christian life. The grace of God works in us, so we should believe God for it. In that way we become as lights in a dark world.

If we love God, then we will do what He commands. But being "not under law" means that our obedience to God is not a legal burden, but rather is a delight to us, since we have the Spirit of God to make our attitude right. This is what being under grace is. God is at work in us to make us willing to do His will.

Hi,
Grace is a Gift. The gift is Christ. Through Christ we have been sanctified, made fit for Holy use. God said He has perfected forever we who are sanctified in Hebrews 10:14. Then in verse 15 he tells us that the Holy Ghost also testifies of this perfection that He speaks. He says he will put His laws in our hearts and in our minds write them. In Romans 10:8 it broadens it by telling us that the word is nigh to us, In our hearts and in our mouths. Then goes on to say that this heart, mind and mouth endued by the word, His law through His Spirit, Christ is the Faith in which He speaks of, preaches.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above.
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[HIM]

Christ took the OT law of Moses out of the way including the 10 commandments. Yet Christ in His NT reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments leaving out remembering the Sabbath day, hence Christians are not required to remember the Sabbath as the Jews under the OT law. Therefore lying, stealing, idolatry, adultery, etc are morally wrong NOT because Moses says so in the 10 commandments but because Christ says so in the NT.
Christians/Christianity is guided by the NT, not the OT. OT law regulated the religion of Judaism and the NT regulates Christianity so the Christian must look to the NT. Romans 7:1-6 Paul makes it sinful for the Christian to return back to the OT and try and keep it. He compares it to an adulteress woman married to 2 men at the same time. The Christian is married to Christ and His NT gospel but if the Christian also goes back to keep any of the OT law of Moses then he is marrying himself to two laws (Moses & Christ) committing spiritual adultery against Christ. So when Christ died He took the OT law out of the way freeing us from that law so we can be married to His NT law and therefore not commit spiritual adutlery.

God's Law, His word is in our hearts, minds and mouths through Christ. That would include the Sabbath.

Christ kept the Sabbath, this He testified to in the Gospels. In Hebrews chapter four it is reiterated so you are mistaken.
Let's take a look at Hebrews 4 verses 1 through 10 shall we. Open your Bible and please follow along.
Please pay close attention to verse 3. Three things there we need to heed about this rest in which the writer of Hebrews through the Spirit of God is talking about.
One is, we which have believed do enter this rest which is the Gospel that verse 2 is speaking of.
Two it is the same rest in which was available to the the Hebrews in the wilderness, for the word tells us this by alluding to Ps. 95 in verse 3. It is being said in the past tense. He says through the Spirit, "as He said".
This is compounded by the third thing. The verse's ending statement. The Spirit tells us that the works for this rest were finished from the foundation of the world. The word "if" in the clause "if they shall enter into my rest" is answered by the word "although", which speaks of this rest which we who have believe do enter being available to us from the beginning of creation. He says, "although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Now this even more solidified by verse 4. That verse starts with the word "for" which means it is the answer to what was previously said. What it is saying is, when God rested on the Seventh Day; the work He finished included that which was needed for our redemption. It was a done deal. He was foreordained, slain from the foundation of the world 1 pet 1:19,20 and Rev 13:8 say. It was accomplished because His heart was in it, and it's attributes, the Spiritual rest was available.
Now if we did not at least continue to the next verse we would be doing an injustice to our God and to those who happen to be reading this.
Verse 5 starts of with, " In this again". So this begs the question; what again? What is said was done in verse 4. He speaks of the Seventh Day, if we shall enter in His rest.
Please take notice Two separate things being alluded to here. The rest which is the Gospel and the Seventh Day. They are not the same. This verse makes a distinction between the two. This distinction is brought even more so in verse 9 and 10. And also the question is answered; in what manner of the Seventh Day is he speaking in relation to the rest which is the Gospel?
He says in verse 9, "there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God" That is how speaks again of the Seventh day.
And the distinction between the Gospel rest and Seventh Day is brought out again in verse 10 by the word "also". He says, "He that has entered into His rest ALSO ceases from their own works as God did from His". The word "as" makes a direct comparison between our ceasing and God's. God ceased from work on the Seventh Day which is the Sabbath so we who have entered into the Gospel Rest also on the Seventh Day cease from our work.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Footnote: The Greek word translated Sabbath keeeping is sabattismos which is translated rest in the KJV, actually means Sabbath-keeping.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
1Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Soyeong]

In your definition all 613 laws are permanent. This is neither upheld by Christians nor by Rabbinic Jews. Your definition makes your cultural worldview very close to that of ISIS and radical Islam. But, even in Islam, there are voices for modernization and President el-Sisi of Egypt has frequently advocated for "renewing religious discourse." God's commands are not static but rather teach people how to live in their time period and social milieu. But Jesus has done this already. He has renewed the rigorous discourse already and has done a lot more than that.

https://www.sis.gov.eg/Story/107014?lang=en-us

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on a particular time period or social milieu, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given are eternally valid. The only way they could not be permanent is if God's nature were not permanent. I would be interested if you could cite Rabbinic Jews as saying that God's laws are not permanent because everything I see in the OT repeatedly says things like "this is a statute forever throughout your generations". I have very little in common with ISIS and radical Islam. Jesus did not say anything about the Mosaic Law being outdated.

@Clare73 has defined ceremonial laws as follows: "the ceremonial laws are the sacrifices; the clean and unclean foods, garments, houses, persons; the cleansings; the feasts; the years; the Temple; the Aaronic priesthood, the Mosaic lawgiver/mediator; corban, etc."

We also need to distinguish a moral law such as "do not commit adultery" from a civil law such as 'stone the adulterers' or 'do not eat lobster' or 'circumcise newborn males.' It's usually easy to see which rules are moral, civil, or ceremonial. Christians and Rabbinic Jews have already made this distinction and adapted the commands to their cultural circumstances.

The Bible does use distinct Hebrew words for different subcategories of law, but it says nothing to distinguish some of them as being immoral and sinful to disobey while others of them or not, so when the Bible does not do that, then I don't see why we need to do that. Are laws in regard to marriage moral, civil, or ceremonial? Are laws against kidnapping and rape in regard to moral or civil issues? The way that people categorize laws varies widely depending on whom I ask, but in order to interpret the Bible correct we need to establish which categories its authors used and which laws they thought belong into those categories, otherwise we are inserting our views into the Bible rather than deriving it from the Bible.

This is only bec Israel was not an independent nation during 2nd temple period (except for a few years under the Maccabees). Foreign powers forced their generally more civilized laws on the Jewish population. But we still read in the NT about Jews attempting to kill an adulteress and killing Steven and James.

Do you consider think that God gave laws that are uncivilized? If so, then what does that imply about your view of God for giving those laws?

I've seen people argue that Paul permitted eating meat sacrificed to pagan deities. But this would be against the Jerusalem Council guidelines. In fact, I currently struggle with whether or not I should eat meat labelled "Halal," which is sacrificed to the Islamic deity.

In 1 Corinthians 10:14-33, Paul made the distinction between prohibiting eating meat from a pagan altar and allowing eating meat that had been sold on the market that had been previously offered to idols.

Again, this brings us back to what commands exactly did Jesus mean. the Bible says that God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger, so I think they're eternal. Other commands are also useful guidelines of behavior. But I will refuse to own slaves even if ISIS, or you, think it's God's command.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so all of the Mosaic Law was either spoken or written by God, and I don't see a reason to think that a law spoken by God is any less eternal than a law written by God, but rather all of God's righteous laws are eternal. God did not command anyone to have slaves, though there is quite a bit of difference between what is commanded in the Bible and ISIS. In Exodus 21, it gives guidelines for how someone could choose to become a permeant slave instead of being able to go free, so if you're not imagining scenarios where that would be preferable to someone, then your understanding is not correct.

The interesting thing is that both you and @Soyeong agree that the Torah is a single whole that should be followed or disregarded in toto. According to this definition Jesus sinned by not offering animal sacrifices, by breaking the Sabbath, and by not stoning the adulteress.

Your ideas have dire theological consequences.

Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Torah. He did not break the Sabbath, and John 8:1-12 is an example of Jesus acting in accordance with the Mosaic Law requires. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:15), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the Mosaic Law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God's Law, His word is in our hearts, minds and mouths through Christ. That would include the Sabbath.

Christ kept the Sabbath, this He testified to in the Gospels. In Hebrews chapter four it is reiterated so you are mistaken.
Let's take a look at Hebrews 4 verses 1 through 10 shall we. Open your Bible and please follow along.
Please pay close attention to verse 3. Three things there we need to heed about this rest in which the writer of Hebrews through the Spirit of God is talking about.
One is, we which have believed do enter this rest which is the Gospel that verse 2 is speaking of.
Two it is the same rest in which was available to the the Hebrews in the wilderness, for the word tells us this by alluding to Ps. 95 in verse 3. It is being said in the past tense. He says through the Spirit, "as He said".
This is compounded by the third thing. The verse's ending statement. The Spirit tells us that the works for this rest were finished from the foundation of the world. The word "if" in the clause "if they shall enter into my rest" is answered by the word "although", which speaks of this rest which we who have believe do enter being available to us from the beginning of creation. He says, "although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Now this even more solidified by verse 4. That verse starts with the word "for" which means it is the answer to what was previously said. What it is saying is, when God rested on the Seventh Day; the work He finished included that which was needed for our redemption. It was a done deal. He was foreordained, slain from the foundation of the world 1 pet 1:19,20 and Rev 13:8 say. It was accomplished because His heart was in it, and it's attributes, the Spiritual rest was available.
Now if we did not at least continue to the next verse we would be doing an injustice to our God and to those who happen to be reading this.
Verse 5 starts of with, " In this again". So this begs the question; what again? What is said was done in verse 4. He speaks of the Seventh Day, if we shall enter in His rest.
Please take notice Two separate things being alluded to here. The rest which is the Gospel and the Seventh Day. They are not the same. This verse makes a distinction between the two. This distinction is brought even more so in verse 9 and 10. And also the question is answered; in what manner of the Seventh Day is he speaking in relation to the rest which is the Gospel?
He says in verse 9, "there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God" That is how speaks again of the Seventh day.
And the distinction between the Gospel rest and Seventh Day is brought out again in verse 10 by the word "also". He says, "He that has entered into His rest ALSO ceases from their own works as God did from His". The word "as" makes a direct comparison between our ceasing and God's. God ceased from work on the Seventh Day which is the Sabbath so we who have entered into the Gospel Rest also on the Seventh Day cease from our work.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Footnote: The Greek word translated Sabbath keeeping is sabattismos which is translated rest in the KJV, actually means Sabbath-keeping.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
1Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Out of curiosity, when was the last year you ceased from work for the entire year?

 

[ViaCrucis]

hello all. so i just got back from talking to a preacher up the street from me. i have been questioning salvation, and i have to say that this preacher really confused me. so i asked him a few questions, like are backsliders christian? and is addiction a sin? he said yes to both. but the one thing that bothered me is he brought up being under the law. his belief was that christians are not under the law, or ten commandments, and that the only commandments to follow are 1. love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul. and 2. love they neighbor as thy self. he said that if you followed those 2 commandments, all the other laws would be followed as a result of love.

am i wrong to think this didnt sound right?????

It's overly simplistic, but your preacher friend is more-or-less correct on this matter. Christians are not subject to the Jewish Torah, those commandments were given exclusively to the Jews as part of their Covenant with God. That includes the Ten Commandments, which is why St. Paul tells us that we are not obligated to observe the Jewish Sabbath, as such things were shadows that pointed to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

The Great Commandment, to love the Lord our God, and to love our neighbor as our selves is the whole of the Law. St. Paul tells us that the entirety of the Law is fulfilled by love, "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:4)

Thus from this flows all else.

We are not under the Torah, but that does not mean we can worship idols, commit adultery, murder one another, etc. For one, while the Torah was given to the Jews, and therefore many of the commandments only apply to those to whom were given it; there was still God's universal moral law. While it is in the Torah that we read, "Thou shalt not murder", but murder was a violation of God's Law well before the giving of the Torah. It was a transgression of God's Law when Cain murdered Abel, and all men of all nations are held culpable of murder for it is always wrong.

So do not misunderstand not being under Torah as license to sin; the Law condemns us in our sin. That is its chief spiritual purpose--to condemn sin, and to reveal to us sinners that we are indeed sinners.

By the grace of God, through the faith which we have been given, God has regenerated our hearts, and given us a new obedience that we might go out and love as we have been so commanded. That through such love of God and neighbor we neither blaspheme God nor cause injury to our fellow man; seeking only what is good for them. That we might live lives of peace, humility, and loving service as faithful disciples of Jesus in this world. When we sin, the Law will drop us to our knees like a ten ton weight; but the marvelous goodness of God through the Gospel is His word and promise to you, a sinner, that you are forgiven and you belong to Him. Therefore trust in Christ and go love your neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HIM]

Out of curiosity, when was the last year you ceased from work for the entire year?

Your question has nothing to do with the post your responded to. Show any error within the facts shared. Here is the post again.
God's Law, His word is in our hearts, minds and mouths through Christ. That would include the Sabbath.

Christ kept the Sabbath, this He testified to in the Gospels. In Hebrews chapter four it is reiterated so you are mistaken.
Let's take a look at Hebrews 4 verses 1 through 10 shall we. Open your Bible and please follow along.
Please pay close attention to verse 3. Three things there we need to heed about this rest in which the writer of Hebrews through the Spirit of God is talking about.
One is, we which have believed do enter this rest which is the Gospel that verse 2 is speaking of.
Two it is the same rest in which was available to the the Hebrews in the wilderness, for the word tells us this by alluding to Ps. 95 in verse 3. It is being said in the past tense. He says through the Spirit, "as He said".
This is compounded by the third thing. The verse's ending statement. The Spirit tells us that the works for this rest were finished from the foundation of the world. The word "if" in the clause "if they shall enter into my rest" is answered by the word "although", which speaks of this rest which we who have believe do enter being available to us from the beginning of creation. He says, "although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Now this even more solidified by verse 4. That verse starts with the word "for" which means it is the answer to what was previously said. What it is saying is, when God rested on the Seventh Day; the work He finished included that which was needed for our redemption. It was a done deal. He was foreordained, slain from the foundation of the world 1 pet 1:19,20 and Rev 13:8 say. It was accomplished because His heart was in it, and it's attributes, the Spiritual rest was available.
Now if we did not at least continue to the next verse we would be doing an injustice to our God and to those who happen to be reading this.
Verse 5 starts of with, " In this again". So this begs the question; what again? What is said was done in verse 4. He speaks of the Seventh Day, if we shall enter in His rest.
Please take notice Two separate things being alluded to here. The rest which is the Gospel and the Seventh Day. They are not the same. This verse makes a distinction between the two. This distinction is brought even more so in verse 9 and 10. And also the question is answered; in what manner of the Seventh Day is he speaking in relation to the rest which is the Gospel?
He says in verse 9, "there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God" That is how speaks again of the Seventh day.
And the distinction between the Gospel rest and Seventh Day is brought out again in verse 10 by the word "also". He says, "He that has entered into His rest ALSO ceases from their own works as God did from His". The word "as" makes a direct comparison between our ceasing and God's. God ceased from work on the Seventh Day which is the Sabbath so we who have entered into the Gospel Rest also on the Seventh Day cease from our work.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Footnote: The Greek word translated Sabbath keeeping is sabattismos which is translated rest in the KJV, actually means Sabbath-keeping.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
1Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Andrewn]

One thing I cannot accuse you of is copying and pasting. Your reply is indeed thoughtful and addresses my objections.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on a particular time period or social milieu, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given are eternally valid. The only way they could not be permanent is if God's nature were not permanent.

I agree with this logic as opposed to saying that the moral commandments are applicable only to Jews. They clearly aren't bec most of them were repeated in the NT. But here is what Chuck Swindoll says about the other commandments in March 2021 Insights Magazine:

"Many centuries before the earthly ministry of Jesus, the Jewish people were conquered by the Babylonians and carried off to Babylon as slaves. With their temple destroyed and their homeland colonized by other cultures, the Jews looked to the Law of Moses to sustain their national identity and to maintain their distinctiveness as God’s chosen people.

"In order to help them apply the Law to everyday life in their new and unfamiliar home, teachers of the Hebrew Scriptures wrote very careful, specific instructions for the people to follow. However, what began as a practical aid for Jews became a sacred tradition that took on a life of its own.

"The body of sacred traditions developed by “the elders” eventually supplanted the very Law it was intended to uphold. And by the time of Jesus, failure to observe tradition was regarded as disobedience to the Law of God. Furthermore, this man-made religiosity became the means by which many Pharisees maintained the illusion of moral superiority over others. Ironically, their religious zeal put them at odds with God. Not only were they motivated by a lust for power, their traditions often violated the very Law they supposedly cherished."

THE GATHERING STORM - Issuu

I would be interested if you could cite Rabbinic Jews as saying that God's laws are not permanent because everything I see in the OT repeatedly says things like "this is a statute forever throughout your generations".

It's obvious that Rabbinic Jews did not practice many of the laws in the Torah since the 1st century and did not include them in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and Talmuds.

I have very little in common with ISIS and radical Islam. Jesus did not say anything about the Mosaic Law being outdated.

What you consider to be "very little" is in my opinion "very significant" commonality between your hope for reenacting the entire Torah and ISIS practices.

The Bible does use distinct Hebrew words for different subcategories of law, but it says nothing to distinguish some of them as being immoral and sinful to disobey while others of them or not, so when the Bible does not do that, then I don't see why we need to do that.

We need to do that bec Jesus and the Apostles never practiced not promoted the practice of certain laws.

Are laws in regard to marriage moral, civil, or ceremonial? Are laws against kidnapping and rape in regard to moral or civil issues? The way that people categorize laws varies widely depending on whom I ask, but in order to interpret the Bible correct we need to establish which categories its authors used and which laws they thought belong into those categories, otherwise we are inserting our views into the Bible rather than deriving it from the Bible.

We, Christians, do not insert our views but rather accept the views in the NT. Several participants in this thread expressed the belief that the Torah has been abolished and we follow NT laws. While I disagree with this methodology, we reach similar results except that I find value in the Torah.

Do you consider think that God gave laws that are uncivilized? If so, then what does that imply about your view of God for giving those laws?

I think the quotation from Swindoll addresses this.

In 1 Corinthians 10:14-32, Paul made the distinction between prohibiting eating meat from a pagan altar and allowing eating meat that had been sold on the market that had been previously offered to idols.

I accept this interpretation.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so all of the Mosaic Law was either spoken or written by God, and I don't see a reason to think that a law spoken by God is any less eternal than a law written by God, but rather all of God's righteous laws are eternal.

We know that the rabbis have a habit of inventing rules and calling them "Oral Torah." So, no they're not Gods commandments.

God did not command anyone to have slaves, though there is quite a bit of difference between what is commanded in the Bible and ISIS. In Exodus 21, it gives guidelines for how someone could choose to become a permeant slave instead of being able to go free, so if you're not imagining scenarios where that would be preferable to someone, then your understanding is not correct.

There were 2 kinds of slaves: Israelites who sold themselves and foreigners who were kidnapped during raids, just like ISIS does. Regulations were different and this is a big subject but you can't say that that system should be practiced in our modern world.

Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Torah.

Of course, Jesus was sinless bec he lived in perfect obedience to God's righteous laws.

 

[Butterball1]

God's Law, His word is in our hearts, minds and mouths through Christ. That would include the Sabbath.

Christ kept the Sabbath, this He testified to in the Gospels. In Hebrews chapter four it is reiterated so you are mistaken.
Let's take a look at Hebrews 4 verses 1 through 10 shall we. Open your Bible and please follow along.
Please pay close attention to verse 3. Three things there we need to heed about this rest in which the writer of Hebrews through the Spirit of God is talking about.
One is, we which have believed do enter this rest which is the Gospel that verse 2 is speaking of.
Two it is the same rest in which was available to the the Hebrews in the wilderness, for the word tells us this by alluding to Ps. 95 in verse 3. It is being said in the past tense. He says through the Spirit, "as He said".
This is compounded by the third thing. The verse's ending statement. The Spirit tells us that the works for this rest were finished from the foundation of the world. The word "if" in the clause "if they shall enter into my rest" is answered by the word "although", which speaks of this rest which we who have believe do enter being available to us from the beginning of creation. He says, "although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Now this even more solidified by verse 4. That verse starts with the word "for" which means it is the answer to what was previously said. What it is saying is, when God rested on the Seventh Day; the work He finished included that which was needed for our redemption. It was a done deal. He was foreordained, slain from the foundation of the world 1 pet 1:19,20 and Rev 13:8 say. It was accomplished because His heart was in it, and it's attributes, the Spiritual rest was available.
Now if we did not at least continue to the next verse we would be doing an injustice to our God and to those who happen to be reading this.
Verse 5 starts of with, " In this again". So this begs the question; what again? What is said was done in verse 4. He speaks of the Seventh Day, if we shall enter in His rest.
Please take notice Two separate things being alluded to here. The rest which is the Gospel and the Seventh Day. They are not the same. This verse makes a distinction between the two. This distinction is brought even more so in verse 9 and 10. And also the question is answered; in what manner of the Seventh Day is he speaking in relation to the rest which is the Gospel?
He says in verse 9, "there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God" That is how speaks again of the Seventh day.
And the distinction between the Gospel rest and Seventh Day is brought out again in verse 10 by the word "also". He says, "He that has entered into His rest ALSO ceases from their own works as God did from His". The word "as" makes a direct comparison between our ceasing and God's. God ceased from work on the Seventh Day which is the Sabbath so we who have entered into the Gospel Rest also on the Seventh Day cease from our work.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Footnote: The Greek word translated Sabbath keeeping is sabattismos which is translated rest in the KJV, actually means Sabbath-keeping.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
1Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Sabbath was taken out of the way by Christ on the cross. From my post #39, Hebrews 4 has nothing to do with the OT Sabbath:

The OT Sabbath was to keep 7th day as a day of rest, Exodus 16:26. The Christian has no obligation to follow that OT law.

Hebrews 4:1 speaks of a promise of rest 'left' to the Christian. The author of Hebrews "elected to base his appeal upon the Old Testament, equally valid, and better designed to woo his readers back from a reversion to Judaism; hence the statement that "there was a promise LEFT," in the sense of being "left open." How so? Five hundred years, almost, after Israel entered Canaan, David in Psalms 95:7-11 spoke of there being a rest for God's people, indicating that their final entry into Canaan was not the full attainment of that rest, and that something much more than that was involved."
Coffman Comm. (my emp)


Hebrews 4:3 "The use of the present tense, "we do enter into that rest," stresses the first and immediate phase of the Christian's rest and focuses the attention of the believer upon the benefits and joys of that Christian service which are already his and in the process of being enjoyed by him. This verse again strikes at the tragic failure of Israel who, though entering Canaan, did not in fact enter into God's rest, in the higher and better sense of becoming a holy nation of righteous and devoted worshipers of God, as God had commanded them (Exodus 19:3-6);"
Coffman Comm.

Hebrews 4:5 "This quotation, as in Hebrews 4:3, is again from Psalms 95:11, serving the purpose, alongside of the quotation from Genesis 2:2, of identifying the rest spoken of here as that of God himself, following the six days of creation, and to which heavenly rest God has always invited people to come and share. To make this place any kind of an argument for people's keeping the sabbath day is to miss the entire argument of the epistle in this portion. The argument is that a rest remains BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ENTERED by the Hebrews! Therefore, it (rest) was not entering Canaan nor keeping the sabbath day, for they did that. Thus, the marvelous rest referred to here can be neither of those things but must be understood as a reference back to the rest of God himself which is still in progress, a rest the Jews could have entered but did not, and likewise a rest that many now have the right to enter but may come short of it; hence the warning."
Coffman Comm (my emp)

So there is a 'rest' Christians have, a much better rest which fleshly Israel did not attain under the OT law (Hebrews 4:8). Jews could have entered that rest which Christians have, but most Jews rejected Christ and Christianity. But for those few Hebrew Christian converts, they are being warned if they backslide out of Christianity back to the OT law, they will come short of having that rest, (Hebrews 4:1).

Hebrews 4:6 "This is a summary of the argument. God desires and has purposed from all eternity that some shall enter into his rest; and, seeing that (fleshly) Israel did not, as proved by David's saying so in Psalms 95, the way is still open for whomsoever will accept the invitation."
Coffman Comm.

Hebrews 4:8 "This means that if Joshua had given the people the rest spoken of here, in that he led them into Canaan, then David would not have held it (rest) up as something yet unattained such a long time after that."
Coffman Comm.

 

[HIM]

The Sabbath was taken out of the way by Christ on the cross. From my post #39, Hebrews 4 has nothing to do with the OT Sabbath:

The OT Sabbath was to keep 7th day as a day of rest, Exodus 16:26. The Christian has no obligation to follow that OT law.

Hebrews 4:1 speaks of a promise of rest 'left' to the Christian. The author of Hebrews "elected to base his appeal upon the Old Testament, equally valid, and better designed to woo his readers back from a reversion to Judaism; hence the statement that "there was a promise LEFT," in the sense of being "left open." How so? Five hundred years, almost, after Israel entered Canaan, David in Psalms 95:7-11 spoke of there being a rest for God's people, indicating that their final entry into Canaan was not the full attainment of that rest, and that something much more than that was involved."
Coffman Comm. (my emp)


Hebrews 4:3 "The use of the present tense, "we do enter into that rest," stresses the first and immediate phase of the Christian's rest and focuses the attention of the believer upon the benefits and joys of that Christian service which are already his and in the process of being enjoyed by him. This verse again strikes at the tragic failure of Israel who, though entering Canaan, did not in fact enter into God's rest, in the higher and better sense of becoming a holy nation of righteous and devoted worshipers of God, as God had commanded them (Exodus 19:3-6);"
Coffman Comm.

Hebrews 4:5 "This quotation, as in Hebrews 4:3, is again from Psalms 95:11, serving the purpose, alongside of the quotation from Genesis 2:2, of identifying the rest spoken of here as that of God himself, following the six days of creation, and to which heavenly rest God has always invited people to come and share. To make this place any kind of an argument for people's keeping the sabbath day is to miss the entire argument of the epistle in this portion. The argument is that a rest remains BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ENTERED by the Hebrews! Therefore, it (rest) was not entering Canaan nor keeping the sabbath day, for they did that. Thus, the marvelous rest referred to here can be neither of those things but must be understood as a reference back to the rest of God himself which is still in progress, a rest the Jews could have entered but did not, and likewise a rest that many now have the right to enter but may come short of it; hence the warning."
Coffman Comm (my emp)

So there is a 'rest' Christians have, a much better rest which fleshly Israel did not attain under the OT law (Hebrews 4:8). Jews could have entered that rest which Christians have, but most Jews rejected Christ and Christianity. But for those few Hebrew Christian converts, they are being warned if they backslide out of Christianity back to the OT law, they will come short of having that rest, (Hebrews 4:1).

Hebrews 4:6 "This is a summary of the argument. God desires and has purposed from all eternity that some shall enter into his rest; and, seeing that (fleshly) Israel did not, as proved by David's saying so in Psalms 95, the way is still open for whomsoever will accept the invitation."
Coffman Comm.

Hebrews 4:8 "This means that if Joshua had given the people the rest spoken of here, in that he led them into Canaan, then David would not have held it (rest) up as something yet unattained such a long time after that."
Coffman Comm.

Prove the points in the post wrong if you think they are. Posting someone's commentary without actually addressing the points made in the post is rather wanting and proves nothing.

And by the way We will speak to Coffman if possible on his thoughts not you. Do your own study and stop relying on someone else's. Start with the post you responded to and go from there. We look forward to your response. Take your time.

 

[Butterball1]

Prove the points in the post wrong if you think they are. Posting someone's commentary without actually addressing the points made in the post is rather wanting and proves nothing.

And by the way We will speak to Coffman if possible on his thoughts not you. Do your own study and stop relying on someone else's. Start with the post you responded to and go from there. We look forward to your response. Take your time.

I added commentary to my post to show that fleshly Israel, though they entered Canaan and kept the Sabbath, they did not have the rest of Hebrews 4 meaning the rest of Heb 4 that Christians possess is not the rest of the OT Sabbath law.

 

[HIM]

I added commentary to my post to show that fleshly Israel, though they entered Canaan and kept the Sabbath, they did not have the rest of Hebrews 4 meaning the rest of Heb 4 that Christians possess is not the rest of the OT Sabbath law.

Your response tells me you did not read or you did not understand the post to which you responded to. No where in that post does it say that the rest in which Christians possess is the OT Sabbath Law.

 

[Butterball1]

Your response tells me you did not read or you did not understand the post to which you responded to. No where in that post does it say that the rest in which Christians possess is the OT Sabbath Law.

Because fleshly Israel did not obey, were in "unbelief" God said they would NOT enter His rest, Psalms 95:10-11, hence fleshly Israel 'fell short' of that rest Hebrews 4:1 because of unbelief Hebrews 4:11. Therefore the is a rest that has been LEFT (Hebrews 4:1) open, is a rest for those who become Christians.

Yet even though fleshly Israel DID keep the Sabbath yet they did not enter into God's rest spoken of in Hebrews 4. If they did enter the rest of Hebrews 4 then no rest would be 'left' and Psalms 95:11 is not true and Hebrews 4 is not true for both contexts show fleshly Israel did NOT enter into God's rest of Hebrews 4 they fell short of it.

Regardless of your position on Hebrews 4, the context of Hebrews 4 cannot logically refer to the OT Sabbath.