No deal BREXIT looms

[mindlight]

It looks like a situation that is incapable of a solution. And I cannot imagine that holding a second referendum would solve everything, although I get the feeling that some people are of the opinion that this would be the way to placate everyone.

If the will of the voters doesn't count for anything, there's hardly any point to kicking the decision of what to do back to them.

The obvious costs and problems of BREXIT were not obvious when then people voted but now are. So the situation has changed sufficiently to warrant a clarification of the peoples will in a second referendum. It is that or delivering something they may not have in reality asked for.

If people vote against BREXIT then the situation is resolved and with the peoples consent. If we move forward with Brexit then it is with clear understanding that it will cost us in the short term but that the goal is worth it.

But actually in Britain it is parliament that is sovereign and referendums are not the norm. If the people do not like Parliament then they have the opportunity to vote them out but parliament makes the decisions on their behalf. So with or without a referendum parliament has the right to stop BREXIT if it thinks it will harm the common good. That is called good governance.

 

[Albion]

The obvious costs and problems of BREXIT were not obvious when then people voted but now are. So the situation has changed sufficiently to warrant a clarification of the peoples will in a second referendum. It is that or delivering something they may not have in reality asked for.

More or less the same could be said concerning the results of ANY election. If elections matter, then the losing side doesn't get a "do over" on the basis that some of the voters probably didn't know what they were doing.

 

[mindlight]

More or less the same could be said concerning the results of ANY election. If elections matter, then the losing side doesn't get a "do over" on the basis that some of the voters probably didn't know what they were doing.

Except in this case 48% voted against BREXIT and a great many leavers do not think that the Brexit options on the table are what they actually voted for. Parliament is sovereign in British politics and a responsible government needs to respond to changed circumstances for the sake of the common good.

 

[Albion]

Except in this case 48% voted against BREXIT....

A good showing for the losing side, but still a loss.

 

[mindlight]

A good showing for the losing side, but still a loss.

Victory or defeat are decisions that parliament has the right to overrule in the interest of the common good in changed circumstances.

 

[Albion]

Victory or defeat are decisions that parliament has the right to overrule in the interest of the common good in changed circumstances.

I don't think that changes anything about what I wrote in the first place.

 

[Speedwell]

A good showing for the losing side, but still a loss.

In an election that may well have been manipulated by the Russians, not bad at all.

 

[mindlight]

I don't think that changes anything about what I wrote in the first place.

Of course it does. You locate the will of the people with the Referendum result. But the British political system locates sovereignty in this matter with parliament. So parliament is capable of resolving this situation, it can do that with another referendum or it can simply overrule the result of the referendum and revoke BREXIT cause it simply does not cost out

 

[mindlight]

In an election that may well have been manipulated by the Russians, not bad at all.

Russia Today seems quite positive about BREXIT as it fits Putins general desire for a breakup of Europe and NATO and the reestablishment of old Cold War hegemonies.

 

[Albion]

Of course it does. You locate the will of the people with the Referendum result. But the British political system locates sovereignty in this matter with parliament.

I believe you've missed the point, which was more about how a re-vote would sit with the people, not whether it would be legal.

 

[mindlight]

I believe you've missed the point, which was more about how a re-vote would sit with the people, not whether it would be legal.

Parliament is the representative of the people and acts on their behalf. If the people don't like what they do then they vote them out at the appointed time. Governance is not done with polls it is done by representatives of the people. If someone launches a nuclear strike against London it is the PM who decides to retaliate not a Referendum of the people.

Also this parliament was more recently elected by the people than the Referendum it is debating now.

 

[Albion]

Parliament is the representative of the people and acts on their behalf.

Once the decision is made to submit some issue to the people via referendum, that argument is negated.

Governance is not done with polls....

Polls -- i.e. public opinion polling -- have never been a part of this. We are speaking of a referendum.

 

[mindlight]

Once the decision is made to submit some issue to the people via referendum, that argument is negated.

It is a decision that the more recently elected parliament can reverse in the light of changed circumstances and improved understanding as the true representatives of the people.

Polls

have never been a part of this.

referendum
/ˌrɛfəˈrɛndəm/
noun
noun: referendum; plural noun: referenda; plural noun: referendums

1. a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.
   synonyms: public vote, plebiscite, popular vote, ballot, poll
   "he called for a referendum on the death penalty"

 

[Goonie]

Once the decision is made to submit some issue to the people via referendum, that argument is negated.


Polls have never been a part of this.

Sorry but parliament is sovereign. Indeed one of the arguments coming from the leave campaign was that leaving would restore sovereignty to parliament. And referendums like polls are purely advisory in uk law.

 

[Albion]

noun: referendum; plural noun: referenda; plural noun: referendums

1. a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.

emphasis mine.

 

[Robban]

Russia Today seems quite positive about BREXIT as it fits Putins general desire for a breakup of Europe and NATO and the reestablishment of old Cold War hegemonies.

You desperate or what?

 

[Robban]

Sorry but parliament is sovereign. Indeed one of the arguments coming from the leave campaign was that leaving would restore sovereignty to parliament. And referendums like polls are purely advisory in uk law.

Does not your Queen have more power,
though she does not use it?

 

[Goonie]

Theresa May has finally got the Brexiters where she wants them | Jonathan Freedland
3rd time lucky?

 

[mindlight]

You desperate or what?

The Russian strategy is quite clear.

But I am quite torn up about Brexit as is my country and its parliament. The current EU deal or indeed a hard Brexit promise costs the country is unprepared for. Revocation not extension would be my preferred option. But the speaker of the house ruled out the Ken Clark revocation option.

 

[mindlight]

Theresa May has finally got the Brexiters where she wants them | Jonathan Freedland
3rd time lucky?

Speaking as a Tory I strongly dislike this brinkmanship. Though I guess May had little room for manoeuvre after the election result. Her deal is probably the best Brexit option but far from perfect

But nor do I want Corbyn to influence a new EU deal which sacrifices sovereignty for alignment. A hard Brexit will split the country for a generation, possibly leading to Scottish independence and new Irish problems not to mention short term recession

Given the apparent rejection of Mays deal and a lack of a clear majority for a second referendum ( which latest polls suggest would support brexit anyway) and the rejection of a no deal option revocation of Article 50 now seems the best option.