No Compulsion or Not.

[Adeeb]

I understand your point of view--however I think a theocracy is a terrible type of government and that the laws of sharia are an abomination.

So my question is that if ( this variety of ) Islam is so closely associated with the state, why follow it all? Why not use a more modern system of government?

Islam is a complete way of life for us. Everything single thing we do has an Islamic ruling attached to it. They are :
1) Obligatory
2) Recommended
3) permissible
4) Disliked
5) Forbidden

There is no separation between church and state. Modern systems of government imply ruling by the self made laws of man, however we believe that Allah has given us laws to which we live by and these are the laws we follow.

 

[Nathan45]

however we believe that Allah has given us laws to which we live by and these are the laws we follow.

And if you did not believe this, you'd have to remain silent or be killed, per your own description of islam.

Therefore any information i'm getting from you is filtered based on the fact that you must necessarily agree with the islamic consensus, or you wouldn't be talking. At least if you're from that part of the world.

If you disagreed, and you were from that part of the world, you wouldn't be talking at all, or you'd be risking your life by doing so.

So who is more credible, the one who risks death by speaking his mind, or the one who expresses opinions that he must hold on punishment of death?

I wonder how many educated people in theocratic countries actually disagree but are afraid to say anything.

And for the record, I think that history shows that theocracy is, overall, a terrible form of government.

 

[Nathan45]

Modern systems of government imply ruling by the self made laws of man

I believe that all systems of government rely on the self-made laws of man.

Why should I give any credence to your opinion that islam is from God, when if you believed otherwise, you would be forced to remain silent?

 

[Nathan45]

and why should i convert to islam if i have no desire to bring about theocracy in the west?

 

[Adeeb]

I am sorry, where did you mention that, I must have missed.

post #2, re quoted by Osiris is post #3

It is logically deducible that you would and could if the power was given unto you. By actually mentioning it, you showed intent.

perhaps, but that is hypothetical.

Maybe, because you seem to be honest. However I don't like the reasoning and I find it threatening to the national sovereignty of the United States.

no doubt you will not like this reasoning. We have different beliefs. I take my ethics and morals from the Quran and Sunnah. You can explain where you take your ethics from

Let's apply St. Matthew 7:1 here for both of us then, I like you, you are honest and kind.

since it does not seem to contradict anything in Islam, I suppose I can accept this request.

 

[Secundulus]

It would be more accurate to say that there is no separation between church and existence.

Sharia Rules for bathroom
Sharia rules for eating
Sharia Rules for praying
Sharia rules for touching the Quran

etc.

 

[Adeeb]

And if you did not believe this, you'd have to remain silent or be killed, per your own description of islam.

Therefore any information i'm getting from you is filtered based on the fact that you must necessarily agree with the islamic consensus, or you wouldn't be talking. At least if you're from that part of the world.

If you disagreed, and you were from that part of the world, you wouldn't be talking at all, or you'd be risking your life by doing so.

So who is more credible, the one who risks death by speaking his mind, or the one who expresses opinions that he must hold on punishment of death?

I wonder how many educated people in theocratic countries actually disagree but are afraid to say anything.

And for the record, I think that history shows that theocracy is, overall, a terrible form of government.

If you do not agree with the laws of Islam in the first place, then you should not live in an Islamic country. Theocracy is a terrible form of government to you, but for Muslims a shariah Islamic state is something we all desire.

 

[Adeeb]

and why should i convert to islam if i have no desire to bring about theocracy in the west?

you would convert to Islam because you believe it is the truth, not because it is convenient for your own views. You base everything on whether it is really the truth or not, as opposed to whether it fits my desires or not. If someone is sincerely looking for the truth, and is willing to accept it if it comes to them even from a place they did not expect, then I have no doubt that they will convert to Islam.

 

[Adeeb]

It would be more accurate to say that there is no separation between church and existence.

Sharia Rules for bathroom
Sharia rules for eating
Sharia Rules for praying
Sharia rules for touching the Quran

etc.

yes we follow the rules of Allah, as opposed to following our desires. Its one or the other. Its either you follow Allah or follow your desires.

 

[Nathan45]

Theocracy is a terrible form of government to you, but for Muslims a shariah Islamic state is something we all desire.

No, Enough of this wishy-washy postmodern stuff.

Theocracy is a terrible form of government, period. It's terrible for me, and terrible for you, whether you realize it or not.

You should not use the same laws today that were handed down to you 13 centurys ago. It's ridiculous to think that unchanging laws written up over a millenia ago are going to fit perfectly into modern, 21st century society. Some of it is archaic, some of it is obsolete, some of it is utterly pointless. It's a different time period, you shouldn't be using the same laws that they thought appropriate in the early middle ages.

You say "for Muslims a shariah Islamic state is something we all desire". This is because you live in a theocracy where you are silenced if you think otherwise. If you did not agree to this, you wouldn't be talking. Yet, somehow there is no compulsion in religion? Maybe "compulsion" is translated badly and doesn't mean what you think it means.

Anyways, What I see when I look at ( your variation of ) islam, I see a gigantic meme that has entrenched itself utterly into your culture, such that it cannot be questioned without threat of death.

When those in power say to someone: "Believe this, or die", does the truth of the statement yet have much or any relevence or relationship to whether or not it is believed? And furthermore, how would you ever know if the statement was true or false, if you would believe it regardless of the truth?

 

[Secundulus]

yes we follow the rules of Allah, as opposed to following our desires. Its one or the other. Its either you follow Allah or follow your desires.

Are you sure you are following God's will or perhaps simply trying to imitate Muhammed. This would be the worst kind of idolatry, especially if he really is a prophet.

 

[Nathan45]

yes we follow the rules of Allah, as opposed to following our desires. Its one or the other. Its either you follow Allah or follow your desires.

Why should Allah care what mannerisms you use while going to the restroom?

 

[Adeeb]

Why should Allah care what mannerisms you use while going to the restroom?

because he created us and he knows what is best for us.

 

[Adeeb]

No, Enough of this wishy-washy postmodern stuff.

Theocracy is a terrible form of government, period. It's terrible for me, and terrible for you, whether you realize it or not.

You should not use the same laws today that were handed down to you 13 centurys ago. It's ridiculous to think that unchanging laws written up over a millenia ago are going to fit perfectly into modern, 21st century society. Some of it is archaic, some of it is obsolete, some of it is utterly pointless. It's a different time period, you shouldn't be using the same laws that they thought appropriate in the early middle ages.

You say "for Muslims a shariah Islamic state is something we all desire". This is because you live in a theocracy where you are silenced if you think otherwise. If you did not agree to this, you wouldn't be talking. Yet, somehow there is no compulsion in religion? Maybe "compulsion" is translated badly and doesn't mean what you think it means.

Anyways, What I see when I look at ( your variation of ) islam, I see a gigantic meme that has entrenched itself utterly into your culture, such that it cannot be questioned without threat of death.

When those in power say to someone: "Believe this, or die", does the truth of the statement yet have much or any relevence or relationship to whether or not it is believed? And furthermore, how would you ever know if the statement was true or false, if you would believe it regardless of the truth?

If you believe as I do that Allah has given laws to live by then you will live by them, and will be eager to live by them. Allah's laws do not become outdated. Technology may be outdated, but the morals and ethics given to us 1400 years ago does not change.

 

[Nathan45]

because he created us and he knows what is best for us.

But you yourself have no idea what's best for you?
You prefer to simply swallow whole the opinions of some sharia judges and some books which claim to speak for God?

 

[Nathan45]

If you believe as I do that Allah has given laws to live by then you will live by them

I understand and this is a tautology.

If you believe sharia you will believe sharia. Fully tautological.

What i'm wondering is why do you believe sharia is from God, aside from the fact that you'd be killed if you didn't?

 

[Adeeb]

I understand and this is a tautology.

If you believe sharia you will believe sharia. Fully tautological.

What i'm wondering is why do you believe sharia is from God, aside from the fact that you'd be killed if you didn't?

I live in America bro, I would not be killed for saying the shariah is not from God. This is my belief that I have no doubt whatsoever about that I have looked into myself, not just blindly followed.

 

[Nathan45]

I live in America bro, I would not be killed for saying the shariah is not from God.

Ah, I had figured you were a saudi arabian, or something. LOL. You said earlier that we shouldn't have sharia/theocracy in America or the west, didn't you?

This is my belief that I have no doubt whatsoever about that I have looked into myself, not just blindly followed.

i'm still curious as to why or how you can believe this with no doubt. But I guess that this is more a question for a different thread or forum...

 

[elwill]

Why can you not answer the question? I am only testing your obedience. That is it.

if that is what you wanna to know really ,
so , yes in islam we must obey God in all his commands
islam means submitting for commands of God , we havn't rights to determines by ourselfs what is suitable for us and what is not suitable .

 

[elwill]

And if you did not believe this, you'd have to remain silent or be killed, per your own description of islam.

Therefore any information i'm getting from you is filtered based on the fact that you must necessarily agree with the islamic consensus, or you wouldn't be talking. At least if you're from that part of the world.

If you disagreed, and you were from that part of the world, you wouldn't be talking at all, or you'd be risking your life by doing so.

So who is more credible, the one who risks death by speaking his mind, or the one who expresses opinions that he must hold on punishment of death?

i completely agree with you
you have a logic argument here

so that i just wanna to correct some points about silents of apostates .
this issue is dubious among scholars of islam .
but i think that not all apostates deserves punishment , there must be other reasons as harm , hurt or insult muslims relegions or spread lie or dubious issues about islam for spreading fitna (false understanding)

this type of apostates shoul be repented (in the case of punishment ) three days for correcting his false understanding about islam , if he didn't accept the real understanding , so may be he punished for spreading his false thoughts about islam .
these actes are rejected under islamic the islamic law
this is my personal view from all my reseach about this issue