NO BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ..saved or NOT ?

[hislegacy]

What I can say is that "without tongues " there is no outer evidence of that baptism occuring .-in the book of acts we see it was how they knew it had occurred in people .Because we cant SEE spirit .

but the over all point is - receiving the baptism of the holy spirit is
ONE - the End game WILL OF GOD
TWO - the will of GOD
THREE- the will of GOD

is one saved if they resist and rebel against the will of God ?

Did Billy Graham resist and rebel against the will of God? He did not speak in tongues.

 

[Alithis]

Did Billy Graham resist and rebel against the will of God? He did not speak in tongues.

was he ever baptised in the Holy SPIRIT ? lets leave such absolute judgments unto God (and straw man arguments Out )-if you go back and read the OP you will see i do not make any .

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

ok no need to be belligerent .. when some one asks you to define something that way what is being sought is to see what understanding you have .
becaseu your words suggest you think "faith" is some mystical undefinable thing you HAVE . but if it was .. you could pull it out of your pocket and show me .
but no one can . why ? because it is not a thing ..it is an action you DO based upon what you truly believe.
that is "faith that saves "

the false faith is the faith that just says oh yes yes i believe so i'm all good . but no believing ACTION is taken on their part displaying that faith - they are hearers but not doers . self deceived

If you wanted to ask me how I was using the word faith, you could have asked, "how are you using the word faith?" You chose otherwise. As far as pulling faith out of my pocket, there are things unseen.

Faith's a mind-conviction, a mind-firmness, a things-certainty, a gifts-hope, a heart-conviction and a heart-persuasion.

 

[Alithis]

If you wanted to ask me how I was using the word faith, you could have asked, "how are you using the word faith?" You chose otherwise. As far as pulling faith out of my pocket, there are things unseen.

faith that is unseen does not exist - your mixing texts together out of context.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

faith that is unseen does not exist - your mixing texts together out of context.

So say you.

 

[Alithis]

So say you.

no . so its written . faith wothout action.is dead .
read hebrews 11 .. often called the faith chapter . what do you observe .
in the instances of of the men and woman of faith they are know by what ?

a mind-conviction, a mind-firmness.... ?
NO ..
by the ACTION they took because they truly believed and proved it by their obedience

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

no . so its written . faith wothout action.is dead .
read hebrews 11 .. often called the faith chapter . what do you observe .
in the instances of of the men and woman of faith they are know by what ?

a mind-conviction, a mind-firmness.... ?
NO ..
by the ACTION they took because they truly believed and proved it by their obedience

To say, "faith without action is dead" is a different thing than to say, "faith is an action."

 

[NBB]

no . so its written . faith wothout action.is dead .
read hebrews 11 .. often called the faith chapter . what do you observe .
in the instances of of the men and woman of faith they are know by what ?

a mind-conviction, a mind-firmness.... ?
NO ..
by the ACTION they took because they truly believed and proved it by their obedience

Having faith is believing in something, faith is not doing something, is just believing.

 

[ARBITER01]

having believed .. as in the action taken of being baptised .. and then the willingness to receive.

but i get your point -its always been a difficult one to define .
because there is a sealing but there is also a baptism of the holy Spirit and many say THIS is that seal.

because no one born of God having repented to go HIS way resists God by working preaching or teaching AGAINST his holy Spirit .
so for example - a cessationist will say they received the holy Spirit at water baptism
but them speak and teach against the attributes of the holy Spirit in unbelief
are they then saved in their unrepentant unbelief ? you see it leaves many questions open.

where in contrast - the apostle rejoiced when they saw the people get baptised in the Holy Spirit -knowing it had occurred because they too "spoke in tongues " and stated that,now, -- not before -,God has accepted them to0 and included them in his plan of salvation . They only accept this as a true fact AFTER the baptism of the Holy Spirit .

Part of the problem in such discussions is the misunderstandings associated with the born again experience and the filling of The Spirit. Certain terminologies used to describe these events have been wrongfully applied over the years, specifically by my denomination, The Assemblies of GOD.

- The only baptism/immersion of The Spirit in scripture is at our rebirth/born again experience. This is when The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus to our spirits and we are renewed.

- Water baptism/immersion has nothing to do with regeneration, it is simply a material declaration of what has happened to you spiritually. Nothing more.

- The third faith step we take is the "filling" of The Holy Spirit within us. This is when we are filled to overflow and we receive His gifts and His character, ie fruits. It is a subsequent experience after water immersion.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Part of the problem in such discussions is the misunderstandings associated with the born again experience and the filling of The Spirit. Certain terminologies used to describe these events have been wrongfully applied over the years, specifically by my denomination, The Assemblies of GOD.

- The only baptism/immersion of The Spirit in scripture is at our rebirth/born again experience. This is when The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus to our spirits and we are renewed.

- Water baptism/immersion has nothing to do with regeneration, it is simply a material declaration of what has happened to you spiritually. Nothing more.

- The third faith step we take is the "filling" of The Holy Spirit within us. This is when we are filled to overflow and we receive His gifts and His character, ie fruits. It is a subsequent experience after water immersion.

Baptism with water rightly done is a means of God's grace. It is beyond being a mere declaration, a mere show. Before I was baptized, I was just a sinner.

 

[ARBITER01]

Baptism with water rightly done is a means of God's grace. It is beyond being a mere declaration, a mere show. Before I was baptized, I was just a sinner.

I don't want to detract from the OP's thread, but I will answer this and then refuse to respond further...

Of all the examples listed in Acts, there are none where a person was born again by a water immersion. None. Such theology is not Christian but Catholic.

Back to your regular scheduled program,...

 

[Alithis]

To say, "faith without action is dead" is a different thing than to say, "faith is an action."

you don't act on any belief in Jesus or act on anything he has said ?

 

[Alithis]

I don't want to detract from the OP's thread, but I will answer this and then refuse to respond further...

Of all the examples listed in Acts, there are none where a person was born again by a water immersion. None. Such theology is not Christian but Catholic.

Back to your regular scheduled program,...

not born again by water
born of water .. and that is only half of it . JEsus is not roman catholic .( and catholics dont do immersion or repentance by faith _babies cant do that ) they came along later .


it is a part of a birthing process
jesus used it in john chapter three because the picture of natural birth best describes the re birth .

in a woman's body the waters break
the baby comes forth (it's a process )

the baby then receives breath IN ...
the baby then cries out ... and by this we know the baby LIVES .

in salvation the command is repent
and be baptised
then the person breaks forth (born forth)from the waters
then they receive the return of the breath of GOD
then by that holy Spirit they ..cry out ....
and we know they LIVE again.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

you don't act on any belief in Jesus or act on anything he has said ?

Hmm... my ministry as a Spiritual Director would seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Scripture says, "we are saved by grace, not works lest any one should boast". Requiring one to speak in tongues in order to be perceived as "saved" turns it into a work. Anyone who has put their faith and trust in Jesus being the one who died on the cross for their salvation and turns from their wicked ways and starts following God in the manner that He has said, is saved from their sins by the blood that Jesus shed. Speaking in tongues can be "faked" and often is in order to appease those who judge salvation accordingly.

 

[ARBITER01]

not born again by water
born of water ..

I don't think we can discuss the subject further.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Of all the examples listed in Acts, there are none where a person was born again by a water immersion. None.

I'd ask just how you know this to be the case, but you've already conveniently said that you won't respond.

Such theology is not Christian but Catholic.

I'd ask you whether you honestly draw such a distinction, but you've already conveniently said that you won't respond.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Scripture says, "we are saved by grace, not works lest any one should boast". Requiring one to speak in tongues in order to be perceived as "saved" turns it into a work. Anyone who has put their faith and trust in Jesus being the one who died on the cross for their salvation and turns from their wicked ways and starts following God in the manner that He has said, is saved from their sins by the blood that Jesus shed. Speaking in tongues can be "faked" and often is in order to appease those who judge salvation accordingly.

We've been made partakers of the salvation gained by Jesus; by being awakened from death and given the life in and with him, we've become justified before God.

This is God’s grace, transmitted to us through faith's hand; we're so regenerated, justified, by faith.

In our heart, which was dead, God has enkindled faith's flame. And this flame spread life through the members. So faith's the start of the new life.

In regeneration's work, of quickening to life, cooperation on our part's excluded.

God’s gift it is, not a reward for works done by us by which we might have made ourselves worthy of being regenerated in God's sight; no merit in us was considered, even had there been anything to point to in this respect, all boasting on our part's cut off.

On our part we haven't contributed even the slightest toward our conversion, neither was it occasioned by any doing by us.

 

[Alithis]

I don't think we can discuss the subject further.

.then dont bring it up

 

[Alithis]

Scripture says, "we are saved by grace, not works lest any one should boast". Requiring one to speak in tongues in order to be perceived as "saved" turns it into a work. Anyone who has put their faith and trust in Jesus being the one who died on the cross for their salvation and turns from their wicked ways and starts following God in the manner that He has said, is saved from their sins by the blood that Jesus shed. Speaking in tongues can be "faked" and often is in order to appease those who judge salvation accordingly.

ok ...1 Its very unwise to make such a statement using a sentance Out of a verse which is OUT of its context.
2. No one said you have to speak in tongues to be saved.
Only tgat tongues are a sign sineone has recieved the holy spirit.

And since the Holy Spirit is the eternal spurit and breath of life... Can someone say they are saved and now have eternal life ..if the have not recieved the Holy spirit of life ?

And as to the scripture.
I.e. In fact, scripture does not say only that.

It says" For by grace your are saved Through faith.
And that not of yourselves.It is the Gift of God ,Not of works lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship created In Christ JESUS unto good works........."(continued..it goes on)

Grace :is what God has already done
He showed favor to us before we were born
And while we were dead in sin . no one can earn that.
But to avail ourselves of that salvation so graciously made available - we must do as the one sent to save us says to do.

When we believe him we follow his instructions
We repent, get baptised and then we can recieve the holy Spirit.
This obedience is calked faith..it is what we Do when we truly believe..we take obedient action.
No action = no faith
No Faith ..= no true belief.
In acts we see this is not at all automatic. Some repented and got water baptised but as written the holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them .
They need to believe and so ask for the promise. And willingly recieve.

Faith is what a person does... Based on what they truly believe .

For by grace are you saved
By God's favor you are saved
Through... What you obediently Do based on believing him .
Through faith.

Never grace alone
Never faith alone
Because niether can be without the other.

Believe and faith are essentially the same word.

There is a faith that does not save
Or a belief that does not save.

A belief/faith that does not save is when a person hss an intelkectual acceptance of a piece of knowledge. But does "nothing" to showing wilful obedience in connection to it.

I.e there is a train coming. if you get off the tracks you will be saved from it hitting you.
An intellectial acceptance of this news says yes i believe you. Thank you for saving me.
But takes no Action in connection with the truth. This kind of belief will result in them being hit by the train.

Faith that saves says ... Yes i believe you.. And because i believe you.. I take action and get off the track. Only then..is the person saved from being hit by that train.