NO BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ..saved or NOT ?

Alithis

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I replied to this question elsewhere and i feel it may be of help to others .

the poster asked a great question-in bold

-"There are people who are saved that have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit
Are they really not saved?"-



well its good to take a much closer look at the topic



The baptism of the holy spirit really is the end Game .
It is written that we were DEAD in trespass and sin - yet we know we are breathing and our bodied and minds functioning . though we were destined for certain eternal destruction in eternal separation from God who is Life .

The end game of salvation is to be reconciled and united with him again and he with us . As JESUS said, he in us and us in him just as he is in the father and the father in him .He prayed for this outcome .

(A problem is the teaching of "the trinity " and the focus on three "persons" makes it more difficult for people understand , not easier . The term trinity itself merely being mans limited attempt to encapsulate into words the incomprehensible . and that always makes the topic problematic )

The Holy SPIRIT : in both hebrew and greek the word SPIRIT means --- BREATH .
the Holy BREATH of GOD .
This is of no surprise since God formed man from the dust and then he BREATHED into him the BREATH of LIFE .
This breath was lost when man sinned . Man began to die (call it a slow suffocation).

Thus without that breath of God (his Holy Spirit ) our spirit is dead within us and our lives ruled and DOMINATED by the desire of our flesh and our minds a slave to finding ways to gratify that sinful desire .

In salvation we believe what he has done for us and because we do -we then DO as he instructs . We turn away from that state (while still in it )turning TO GOD , because, having heard of this great hope and believing the good news we put out trust in God to CHANGE our state because WE CANNOT DO SO ourselves .
He then forgives us because the wage , what is owed ,..is paid by the lord JESUS .

Then he commands upon knowledgeable repentance (turning away from sin and back to GOOD(GOD IS GOOD) that we BURY that old body and person and character of sin in baptism
and then he works a miracle beyond our comprehension.
we DIE into the death of CHRIST that we might live with him in his resurrection.
(this is why we cannot be baptised into a denomination -but into Christ ONLY.)

He takes out of us the old heart of dead stone - and he puts in us an new heart and then
as is written -you will receive the promised Holy Spirit
{you WILL - The will of two parties is always involved. God is willing to come in and you must be willing to receive him in .}
and So upon the baptism of the holy Spirit .The person then receives back the BREATH of life .

And that brings us back to the question. Is a person saved if they have not received the baptism of the Holy SPIRIT ?

I take a gracious stance and say -"they are Being saved ...they are being brought to that place where they WILL surrender to the will of GOD and be baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT and receive that breath of life back into him. "

. Since GOD is life and his breath (Spirit) ,is the holy and eternal breath of life ,can we say one is saved before he/she has that breath of life ?
methinks we cannot .

But are all being drawn to Jesus and to the point where we will fully repent in GODLY SORROW and finally receive( ones will IS ALWAYS involved because unlike the adversary who lies kills and steals his way into lives to wreck destruction..
GOD asks us to come to him and ASK HIM in after sincere repentance ,humility and the turning away from works of evil. aka repentance !

Because we are the house God has prepared for himself .The living temple not made by mans hands .Dwelling IN US is his end game . full reconciliation.

and as it is written - from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . and we know its written that we were made in the image of god as he is . so as god spoke from what fills his haerts and spoke JESUS ... save them .. salvation.

so we ALSO speak from what fills our hearts .. if anger and bitterness of sin fils us we hear it around us every day from the lips of the lost .
If envies and jealousies and hurts fill the hearts of sin - we hear it spill over from peoples mouths as their heart over flows -and what comes out condemns them (not what goes in - just as the Lord Jesus said ).

It is just So when a person receives and is FILLED with the Holy SPIRIT of God ...

recap- They have had the old nature buried in christs death through baptism in water and rise up out of water born anew out of water ..
- they have had ALL SIN washed away and have been made a brand new creation as scripture declares .
Then the new born must breath ..
And they recieve in that HOLY breath of life (the holy SPIRIT ) and then by the Holy Spirit they cry out from their now reborn spirit ... "abba father" ... and are finally reunited to their heavenly creator and father ...

And as the holy spirit fills them to overflowing the spirit if life begins to over flow from their lips in spiritual praise of God as in the book of acts .. they began to speak in other tongues glorifying God .

it is so just as it is written in the scripture .
......

Summary :
Can I say a person who does not speak in tongues has not received the holy Spirit ?
No i can not definitively say that say that .

Can I say persons who have never spoken in tongues, has never been FILLED to overflowing (baptised ) with the holy SPIRIT? - Difficult- but i can presume that to be the case .

What I can say is that "without tongues " there is no outer evidence of that baptism occuring .-in the book of acts we see it was how they knew it had occurred in people .Because we cant SEE spirit .

but the over all point is - receiving the baptism of the holy spirit is
ONE - the End game WILL OF GOD
TWO - the will of GOD
THREE- the will of GOD

is one saved if they resist and rebel against the will of God ?
 

rockytopva

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My testimony.... I was born on a military base to a

1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm

We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.

Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.

When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.

So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.

Regarding Speaking in Tongues it is not scriptural that this was done away with...

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16:17-18

If these events no longer occur it is more due to our carnality than any other reason. I prefer to press people on in the events I just described, however it is not conditional to salvation. The old Pentecostal Holiness church I just eluded to would wait for an interpretation if a message in tongues was given. And they would sit you down if you were out of order.

We had a oneness Pentecostal push in these parts a couple of decades ago. These people would not let anyone claim salvation unless they spoke in tongues. I had a guy I worked with who was in this and his personality actually warmed up after he fell out of the movement. Oneness Pentecostal... I think of it as "Yankee Pentecostalism" as there is very little of the warmth, care, compassion, character, charity, and joy that I was accustomed to in the Wesleyan way of getting things.
 
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Alithis

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My testimony.... I was born on a military base to a

1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm

We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.

Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.

When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.

So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.

Regarding Speaking in Tongues it is not scriptural that this was done away with...

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16:17-18

If these events no longer occur it is more due to our carnality than any other reason. I prefer to press people on in the events I just described, however it is not conditional to salvation. The old Pentecostal Holiness church I just eluded to would wait for an interpretation if a message in tongues was given. And they would sit you down if you were out of order.

We had a oneness Pentecostal push in these parts a couple of decades ago. These people would not let anyone claim salvation unless they spoke in tongues. I had a guy I worked with who was in this and his personality actually warmed up after he fell out of the movement. Oneness Pentecostal... I think of it as "Yankee Pentecostalism" as there is very little of the warmth, care, compassion, character, charity, and joy that I was accustomed to in the Wesleyan way of getting things.
nice testimony.
tbh i'm not sure it relates well to this particular thread topic
 
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rockytopva

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nice testimony.
tbh i'm not sure it relates well to this particular thread topic

I wanted to put the baptism in the Holy Spirit in relation to salvation. Also to note that not everyone gets this blessing the same way.
 
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NBB

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I think that the 'become alive' part and the filling of the spirit can be separated things.
If you look at the disciples they were not baptized until pentecost, but i'm sure they were saved before that.
Also not everyone speaks in tongues when filled. Obviously being filled means a lot more than speaking in tongues.
 
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rockytopva

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I have seen many put on guilt trips because someone convinced them there was something a matter because they did not receive a spiritual blessing in some unique way.

The little girl in the picture below came from a good Christian home. I have never seen her in church and one day asked her pictured father why. Come to find out the little girl liked to wear hats to church and was publicily humiliated over it by some well meaning sister in the church. The lady was the type to call people out and embarrass them in church. The little girl is now a grown woman and avoids church to this good day. The well intended woman divorced and has never done well since.

You must be careful on how you treat the sheep. If you are not wise in your spiritual counsel you could destroy a soul and be held accountable because of your reckless deed.

Picture1.png
 
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Alithis

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I think that the 'become alive' part and the filling of the spirit can be separated things.
If you look at the disciples they were not baptized until pentecost, but i'm sure they were saved before that.
Also not everyone speaks in tongues when filled. Obviously being filled means a lot more than speaking in tongues.
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.… without the holy Spirit .. no life .
just religious function of the intellect . and some can operate from that level very convincingly. but since it is the explicit will of god that we receive the Holy Spirit -let every believer seek for it to occur according to Gods will
just as we are turned from going our own way -to turn back to go HIS way -if a person resists his will in this -they are not yet a repentant (TURNED) person .
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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What we need to do is to read the Scripture properly. On Resurrection day when Jesus came among His disciples, He breathed into every one of them individually, very much like God breathing into Adam who became a living soul. The breath of Jesus, and Him saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit" caused the disciples to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

But, on Ascension Day, Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are endured with power from on high. So, the arrival of the Holy Spirit was the baptism with the Spirit given by the glorified Jesus when He said down at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The breathing into the disciples was was not the baptism with the Spirit because He was breathed in by the Resurrected, but not glorified Jesus. Also, baptism speaks of being totally immersed or having something poured over you. This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came from above and poured all over the disciples and filled them. It was then that they started to praise God in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So, when a person receives Christ, the Holy Spirit is "breathed into them" as the new birth. The Scripture says, "By grace are we saved through faith. It is not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God". So, a person can be truly saved, have the Holy Spirit within him or her, but not yet endued with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The reason why the enduement of the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelious at the same time they were converted to Christ, was to show that no one after the Day of Pentecost had to wait for the enduement any longer. The instruction to wait in Jerusalem was a one-off instruction for the disciples who were in the upper room.

But the twelve disciples at Ephesus were baptised with John's baptism, so they were already born again, because John baptised for repentance and for faith in the Christ to come at that stage. Once those disciples realised there was a Holy Spirit, they were immediately endured with the power from on high. This shows that a believer can be truly born again without being baptised with the Spirit.

I was confused for a while and sincerely thought that the Holy Spirit at conversion was the same as the enduement of power, but after having read the Scripture a little more closely, I was able to see the difference between what the Resurrected Jesus did when He breathed into the disciples, and what the glorified Jesus did when He sat down on the right hand of the Father in heaven, and then sent the enduement of power to the church.
 
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Alithis

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What we need to do is to read the Scripture properly. On Resurrection day when Jesus came among His disciples, He breathed into every one of them individually, very much like God breathing into Adam who became a living soul. The breath of Jesus, and Him saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit" caused the disciples to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

But, on Ascension Day, Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are endured with power from on high. So, the arrival of the Holy Spirit was the baptism with the Spirit given by the glorified Jesus when He said down at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The breathing into the disciples was was not the baptism with the Spirit because He was breathed in by the Resurrected, but not glorified Jesus. Also, baptism speaks of being totally immersed or having something poured over you. This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came from above and poured all over the disciples and filled them. It was then that they started to praise God in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So, when a person receives Christ, the Holy Spirit is "breathed into them" as the new birth. The Scripture says, "By grace are we saved through faith. It is not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God". So, a person can be truly saved, have the Holy Spirit within him or her, but not yet endued with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The reason why the enduement of the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelious at the same time they were converted to Christ, was to show that no one after the Day of Pentecost had to wait for the enduement any longer. The instruction to wait in Jerusalem was a one-off instruction for the disciples who were in the upper room.

But the twelve disciples at Ephesus were baptised with John's baptism, so they were already born again, because John baptised for repentance and for faith in the Christ to come at that stage. Once those disciples realised there was a Holy Spirit, they were immediately endured with the power from on high. This shows that a believer can be truly born again without being baptised with the Spirit.

I was confused for a while and sincerely thought that the Holy Spirit at conversion was the same as the enduement of power, but after having read the Scripture a little more closely, I was able to see the difference between what the Resurrected Jesus did when He breathed into the disciples, and what the glorified Jesus did when He sat down on the right hand of the Father in heaven, and then sent the enduement of power to the church.
its a thought iv often considered -but cant yet teach as i don't have complete peace to say that
 
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ARBITER01

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I replied to this question elsewhere and i feel it may be of help to others .

the poster asked a great question-in bold

-"There are people who are saved that have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit
Are they really not saved?"-

Actually scripture does provide a pretty specific answer to this,..

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,––in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Yes they are saved at that point.

They don't have any of The Holy Spirit's gifts and fruits yet, but they are no longer part of satan's kingdom.
 
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Alithis

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Actually scripture does provide a pretty specific answer to this,..



Yes they are saved at that point.

They don't have any of The Holy Spirit's gifts and fruits yet, but they are no longer part of satan's kingdom.
if they have no evidence of the holy Spirit , they may well be saved ... or not . BUT how do WE the observer companion know that without evidence?
 
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ARBITER01

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if they have no evidence of the holy Spirit , they may well be saved ... or not . BUT how do WE the observer companion know that without evidence?

Well, let's not make assumptions here, scripture says they have been given The Holy Spirit once born again, we must accept the word on that.

The problem is that a segment of Christians take two steps and quit. They get born again, they get water immersed, then they are talked out of being filled with The Holy Spirit, which negates any further steps in their faith walk. Their mind stays in control.
 
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Alithis

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Well, let's not make assumptions here, scripture says they have been given The Holy Spirit once born again, we must accept the word on that.

The problem is that a segment of Christians take two steps and quit. They get born again, they get water immersed, then they are talked out of being filled with The Holy Spirit, which negates any further steps in their faith walk. Their mind stays in control.
not quite following you .. ?
scripture says they WILL receive -its a promise.
that doesn't mean they have automatically received
they are born of water (and ONLY with sincere repentance) -thats 1 part
i don't read where it says they have (past tense ) received after water baptism unless they actually DO receive and can testify of it - i have sem this happen very often now . snd people have begun speaking strongly in tongue moments or minutes after coming out UP out of the water .

its ok for there to be a process - jesus was born into the world via a process ... conceived .. growth waters breaking .. born forth .. breathing in ... crying out .. -none of this happens all at the same time
and he uses the analogy of the birthing process as the example of the process of being "born again" for good reason .
 
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ARBITER01

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not quite following you .. ?
scripture says they WILL receive -its a promise.
that doesn't mean they have automatically received
they are born of water (and ONLY with sincere repentance) -thats 1 part
i don't read where it says they have (past tense ) received after water baptism unless they actually DO receive and can testify of it - i have sem this happen very often now . snd people have begun speaking strongly in tongue moments or minutes after coming out UP out of the water .

its ok for there to be a process - jesus was born into the world via a process ... conceived .. growth waters breaking .. born forth .. breathing in ... crying out .. -none of this happens all at the same time
and he uses the analogy of the birthing process as the example of the process of being "born again" for good reason .

Maybe we are talking past one another here.

Scripture says they were "sealed" with The Holy Spirit upon regeneration,..

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,––in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

It doesn't say they were "filled" with The Holy Spirit, just sealed until the day of redemption. So yes, they are given The Holy Spirit at rebirth, just not in fullness with His gifts and fruits. They have to seek the filling to overflow after water immersion, just like any one of us had to.
 
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Alithis

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Maybe we are talking past one another here.

Scripture says they were "sealed" with The Holy Spirit upon regeneration,..



It doesn't say they were "filled" with The Holy Spirit, just sealed until the day of redemption. So yes, they are given The Holy Spirit at rebirth, just not in fullness with His gifts and fruits. They have to seek the filling to overflow after water immersion, just like any one of us had to.
having believed .. as in the action taken of being baptised .. and then the willingness to receive.

but i get your point -its always been a difficult one to define .
because there is a sealing but there is also a baptism of the holy Spirit and many say THIS is that seal.

because no one born of God having repented to go HIS way resists God by working preaching or teaching AGAINST his holy Spirit .
so for example - a cessationist will say they received the holy Spirit at water baptism
but them speak and teach against the attributes of the holy Spirit in unbelief
are they then saved in their unrepentant unbelief ? you see it leaves many questions open.

where in contrast - the apostle rejoiced when they saw the people get baptised in the Holy Spirit -knowing it had occurred because they too "spoke in tongues " and stated that,now, -- not before -,God has accepted them to0 and included them in his plan of salvation . They only accept this as a true fact AFTER the baptism of the Holy Spirit .
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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We've been brought to faith in Jesus by accepting Truth's Word, the Gospel which tells us of the salvation gained by Jesus. In this way we've been sealed with promise's Spirit.

The Spirit came into our hearts, became a seal of our faith, gave us the certainty that we belong to God and will stay God's own.

Preservation in the faith is the Spirit's work. The Spirit has called us by the Gospel, enlightened us with her gifts and sanctified and kept us.
 
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Alithis

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We've been brought to faith in Jesus by accepting Truth's Word, the Gospel which tells us of the salvation gained by Jesus. In this way we've been sealed with promise's Spirit.

The Spirit came into our hearts, became a seal of our faith, gave us the certainty that we belong to God and will stay God's own.

Preservation in the faith is the Spirit's work. The Spirit has called us by the Gospel, enlightened us with her gifts and sanctified and kept us.
define faith
 
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NBB

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What we need to do is to read the Scripture properly. On Resurrection day when Jesus came among His disciples, He breathed into every one of them individually, very much like God breathing into Adam who became a living soul. The breath of Jesus, and Him saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit" caused the disciples to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

But, on Ascension Day, Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are endured with power from on high. So, the arrival of the Holy Spirit was the baptism with the Spirit given by the glorified Jesus when He said down at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The breathing into the disciples was was not the baptism with the Spirit because He was breathed in by the Resurrected, but not glorified Jesus. Also, baptism speaks of being totally immersed or having something poured over you. This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came from above and poured all over the disciples and filled them. It was then that they started to praise God in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So, when a person receives Christ, the Holy Spirit is "breathed into them" as the new birth. The Scripture says, "By grace are we saved through faith. It is not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God". So, a person can be truly saved, have the Holy Spirit within him or her, but not yet endued with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The reason why the enduement of the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelious at the same time they were converted to Christ, was to show that no one after the Day of Pentecost had to wait for the enduement any longer. The instruction to wait in Jerusalem was a one-off instruction for the disciples who were in the upper room.

But the twelve disciples at Ephesus were baptised with John's baptism, so they were already born again, because John baptised for repentance and for faith in the Christ to come at that stage. Once those disciples realised there was a Holy Spirit, they were immediately endured with the power from on high. This shows that a believer can be truly born again without being baptised with the Spirit.

I was confused for a while and sincerely thought that the Holy Spirit at conversion was the same as the enduement of power, but after having read the Scripture a little more closely, I was able to see the difference between what the Resurrected Jesus did when He breathed into the disciples, and what the glorified Jesus did when He sat down on the right hand of the Father in heaven, and then sent the enduement of power to the church.

Well said. I like to think that when we receive christ we are saved.
 
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Don't know how to use an online dictionary?
ok no need to be belligerent .. when some one asks you to define something that way what is being sought is to see what understanding you have .
becaseu your words suggest you think "faith" is some mystical undefinable thing you HAVE . but if it was .. you could pull it out of your pocket and show me .
but no one can . why ? because it is not a thing ..it is an action you DO based upon what you truly believe.
that is "faith that saves "

the false faith is the faith that just says oh yes yes i believe so i'm all good . but no believing ACTION is taken on their part displaying that faith - they are hearers but not doers . self deceived
 
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