- Nov 11, 2010
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I replied to this question elsewhere and i feel it may be of help to others .
the poster asked a great question-in bold
-"There are people who are saved that have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit
Are they really not saved?"-
well its good to take a much closer look at the topic
The baptism of the holy spirit really is the end Game .
It is written that we were DEAD in trespass and sin - yet we know we are breathing and our bodied and minds functioning . though we were destined for certain eternal destruction in eternal separation from God who is Life .
The end game of salvation is to be reconciled and united with him again and he with us . As JESUS said, he in us and us in him just as he is in the father and the father in him .He prayed for this outcome .
(A problem is the teaching of "the trinity " and the focus on three "persons" makes it more difficult for people understand , not easier . The term trinity itself merely being mans limited attempt to encapsulate into words the incomprehensible . and that always makes the topic problematic )
The Holy SPIRIT : in both hebrew and greek the word SPIRIT means --- BREATH .
the Holy BREATH of GOD .
This is of no surprise since God formed man from the dust and then he BREATHED into him the BREATH of LIFE .
This breath was lost when man sinned . Man began to die (call it a slow suffocation).
Thus without that breath of God (his Holy Spirit ) our spirit is dead within us and our lives ruled and DOMINATED by the desire of our flesh and our minds a slave to finding ways to gratify that sinful desire .
In salvation we believe what he has done for us and because we do -we then DO as he instructs . We turn away from that state (while still in it )turning TO GOD , because, having heard of this great hope and believing the good news we put out trust in God to CHANGE our state because WE CANNOT DO SO ourselves .
He then forgives us because the wage , what is owed ,..is paid by the lord JESUS .
Then he commands upon knowledgeable repentance (turning away from sin and back to GOOD(GOD IS GOOD) that we BURY that old body and person and character of sin in baptism
and then he works a miracle beyond our comprehension.
we DIE into the death of CHRIST that we might live with him in his resurrection.
(this is why we cannot be baptised into a denomination -but into Christ ONLY.)
He takes out of us the old heart of dead stone - and he puts in us an new heart and then
as is written -you will receive the promised Holy Spirit
{you WILL - The will of two parties is always involved. God is willing to come in and you must be willing to receive him in .}
and So upon the baptism of the holy Spirit .The person then receives back the BREATH of life .
And that brings us back to the question. Is a person saved if they have not received the baptism of the Holy SPIRIT ?
I take a gracious stance and say -"they are Being saved ...they are being brought to that place where they WILL surrender to the will of GOD and be baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT and receive that breath of life back into him. "
. Since GOD is life and his breath (Spirit) ,is the holy and eternal breath of life ,can we say one is saved before he/she has that breath of life ?
methinks we cannot .
But are all being drawn to Jesus and to the point where we will fully repent in GODLY SORROW and finally receive( ones will IS ALWAYS involved because unlike the adversary who lies kills and steals his way into lives to wreck destruction..
GOD asks us to come to him and ASK HIM in after sincere repentance ,humility and the turning away from works of evil. aka repentance !
Because we are the house God has prepared for himself .The living temple not made by mans hands .Dwelling IN US is his end game . full reconciliation.
and as it is written - from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . and we know its written that we were made in the image of god as he is . so as god spoke from what fills his haerts and spoke JESUS ... save them .. salvation.
so we ALSO speak from what fills our hearts .. if anger and bitterness of sin fils us we hear it around us every day from the lips of the lost .
If envies and jealousies and hurts fill the hearts of sin - we hear it spill over from peoples mouths as their heart over flows -and what comes out condemns them (not what goes in - just as the Lord Jesus said ).
It is just So when a person receives and is FILLED with the Holy SPIRIT of God ...
recap- They have had the old nature buried in christs death through baptism in water and rise up out of water born anew out of water ..
- they have had ALL SIN washed away and have been made a brand new creation as scripture declares .
Then the new born must breath ..
And they recieve in that HOLY breath of life (the holy SPIRIT ) and then by the Holy Spirit they cry out from their now reborn spirit ... "abba father" ... and are finally reunited to their heavenly creator and father ...
And as the holy spirit fills them to overflowing the spirit if life begins to over flow from their lips in spiritual praise of God as in the book of acts .. they began to speak in other tongues glorifying God .
it is so just as it is written in the scripture .
......
Summary :
Can I say a person who does not speak in tongues has not received the holy Spirit ?
No i can not definitively say that say that .
Can I say persons who have never spoken in tongues, has never been FILLED to overflowing (baptised ) with the holy SPIRIT? - Difficult- but i can presume that to be the case .
What I can say is that "without tongues " there is no outer evidence of that baptism occuring .-in the book of acts we see it was how they knew it had occurred in people .Because we cant SEE spirit .
but the over all point is - receiving the baptism of the holy spirit is
ONE - the End game WILL OF GOD
TWO - the will of GOD
THREE- the will of GOD
is one saved if they resist and rebel against the will of God ?
the poster asked a great question-in bold
-"There are people who are saved that have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit
Are they really not saved?"-
well its good to take a much closer look at the topic
The baptism of the holy spirit really is the end Game .
It is written that we were DEAD in trespass and sin - yet we know we are breathing and our bodied and minds functioning . though we were destined for certain eternal destruction in eternal separation from God who is Life .
The end game of salvation is to be reconciled and united with him again and he with us . As JESUS said, he in us and us in him just as he is in the father and the father in him .He prayed for this outcome .
(A problem is the teaching of "the trinity " and the focus on three "persons" makes it more difficult for people understand , not easier . The term trinity itself merely being mans limited attempt to encapsulate into words the incomprehensible . and that always makes the topic problematic )
The Holy SPIRIT : in both hebrew and greek the word SPIRIT means --- BREATH .
the Holy BREATH of GOD .
This is of no surprise since God formed man from the dust and then he BREATHED into him the BREATH of LIFE .
This breath was lost when man sinned . Man began to die (call it a slow suffocation).
Thus without that breath of God (his Holy Spirit ) our spirit is dead within us and our lives ruled and DOMINATED by the desire of our flesh and our minds a slave to finding ways to gratify that sinful desire .
In salvation we believe what he has done for us and because we do -we then DO as he instructs . We turn away from that state (while still in it )turning TO GOD , because, having heard of this great hope and believing the good news we put out trust in God to CHANGE our state because WE CANNOT DO SO ourselves .
He then forgives us because the wage , what is owed ,..is paid by the lord JESUS .
Then he commands upon knowledgeable repentance (turning away from sin and back to GOOD(GOD IS GOOD) that we BURY that old body and person and character of sin in baptism
and then he works a miracle beyond our comprehension.
we DIE into the death of CHRIST that we might live with him in his resurrection.
(this is why we cannot be baptised into a denomination -but into Christ ONLY.)
He takes out of us the old heart of dead stone - and he puts in us an new heart and then
as is written -you will receive the promised Holy Spirit
{you WILL - The will of two parties is always involved. God is willing to come in and you must be willing to receive him in .}
and So upon the baptism of the holy Spirit .The person then receives back the BREATH of life .
And that brings us back to the question. Is a person saved if they have not received the baptism of the Holy SPIRIT ?
I take a gracious stance and say -"they are Being saved ...they are being brought to that place where they WILL surrender to the will of GOD and be baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT and receive that breath of life back into him. "
. Since GOD is life and his breath (Spirit) ,is the holy and eternal breath of life ,can we say one is saved before he/she has that breath of life ?
methinks we cannot .
But are all being drawn to Jesus and to the point where we will fully repent in GODLY SORROW and finally receive( ones will IS ALWAYS involved because unlike the adversary who lies kills and steals his way into lives to wreck destruction..
GOD asks us to come to him and ASK HIM in after sincere repentance ,humility and the turning away from works of evil. aka repentance !
Because we are the house God has prepared for himself .The living temple not made by mans hands .Dwelling IN US is his end game . full reconciliation.
and as it is written - from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . and we know its written that we were made in the image of god as he is . so as god spoke from what fills his haerts and spoke JESUS ... save them .. salvation.
so we ALSO speak from what fills our hearts .. if anger and bitterness of sin fils us we hear it around us every day from the lips of the lost .
If envies and jealousies and hurts fill the hearts of sin - we hear it spill over from peoples mouths as their heart over flows -and what comes out condemns them (not what goes in - just as the Lord Jesus said ).
It is just So when a person receives and is FILLED with the Holy SPIRIT of God ...
recap- They have had the old nature buried in christs death through baptism in water and rise up out of water born anew out of water ..
- they have had ALL SIN washed away and have been made a brand new creation as scripture declares .
Then the new born must breath ..
And they recieve in that HOLY breath of life (the holy SPIRIT ) and then by the Holy Spirit they cry out from their now reborn spirit ... "abba father" ... and are finally reunited to their heavenly creator and father ...
And as the holy spirit fills them to overflowing the spirit if life begins to over flow from their lips in spiritual praise of God as in the book of acts .. they began to speak in other tongues glorifying God .
it is so just as it is written in the scripture .
......
Summary :
Can I say a person who does not speak in tongues has not received the holy Spirit ?
No i can not definitively say that say that .
Can I say persons who have never spoken in tongues, has never been FILLED to overflowing (baptised ) with the holy SPIRIT? - Difficult- but i can presume that to be the case .
What I can say is that "without tongues " there is no outer evidence of that baptism occuring .-in the book of acts we see it was how they knew it had occurred in people .Because we cant SEE spirit .
but the over all point is - receiving the baptism of the holy spirit is
ONE - the End game WILL OF GOD
TWO - the will of GOD
THREE- the will of GOD
is one saved if they resist and rebel against the will of God ?