Nicene Creed - Believe it?

[Maximus]

I know I am not allowed to debate here.

I am simply curious about where MJs stand on the Nicene Creed.

Posts explaining your position are appreciated. I won't argue; I'll just read what you have to say and maybe ask some questions.

Thanks.

Oh! I would appreciate it if only Messianic believers (whether of Jewish origin or otherwise) responded to this poll.

I already know where Roman and Orthodox Catholics and most mainline Protestants stand on this.

What I want to know is what MJs believe. That is why I am not voting myself.

I would choose option #1.

 

[KelsayDL]

I agree with the first four lines. But thats about it.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

Defianately DO NOT agree with then ending babble about the Catholic Church yada yada yada.

The rest is worthy of ponderance, little more.

When I die and am judged, I hope my deeds are my creed. Much as the good samaritan. God willing.

If I have a creed it would be;

There is only one God, and Yeshua is his anointed one.

But to me creeds are alot of hot air, set forth by men with agendas.

 

[Maximus]

I agree with the first four lines. But thats about it.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

Defianately DO NOT agree with then ending babble about the Catholic Church yada yada yada.

The rest is worthy of ponderance, little more.

When I die and am judged, I hope my deeds are my creed. Much as the good samaritan. God willing.

If I have a creed it would be;

There is only one God, and Yeshua is his anointed one.

But to me creeds are alot of hot air, set forth by men with agendas.

Thank you for your response and explanation, KelsayDL.

Do you believe Jesus is the Divine Second Person of the Holy Trinity?

In other words, is Jesus God as well as Man?

 

[SonWorshipper]

I thought you only wanted Messianic Jews opinions?

Sorry to seem suspicious Max but what are you going to use this information for? I am sure you are well aware that according to this sites rules to be able to post in the Christian areas you have to agree to this.

 

[gpburbell]

The problem is that there are a lot of people who go about calling themselves Messianic Jews, but aren't. There are individuals such as ex JW's, World Wide Church of God (Armstrong's bunch), United Pencostal (Modalists), etc. who started using Jewish terms like Yeshua but aren't Jewish. The original Messianic Jews arose out of the Jesus movement of the late 60's and early 70's. They were "Jewish Jesus freaks" and their theology is orthodox.

George

 

[Maximus]

I thought you only wanted Messianic Jews opinions?

Sorry to seem suspicious Max but what are you going to use this information for? I am sure you are well aware that according to this sites rules to be able to post in the Christian areas you have to agree to this.

Is KelsayDL not an MJ?

I don't plan to "use" this info for anything, SW, except to satisfy my own curiosity.

I posted this poll because I would like to know where MJs stand on the Creed, and that is all. If you noticed, I once posted a poll very similar to this one in IDD.

I am not sure what you mean by your last sentence.

Is there a rule against my posting a poll here?

No one is obliged to answer, although I would appreciate a big response.

 

[Maximus]

The problem is that there are a lot of people who go about calling themselves Messianic Jews, but aren't. There are individuals such as ex JW's, World Wide Church of God (Armstrong's bunch), United Pencostal (Modalists), etc. who started using Jewish terms like Yeshua but aren't Jewish. The original Messianic Jews arose out of the Jesus movement of the late 60's and early 70's. They were "Jewish Jesus freaks" and their theology is orthodox.

George

Thanks for that info.

As far as this poll is concerned, anyone who is a Messianic Jew or attends a Messianic congregation and shares their beliefs should vote.

Obviously, I have no way to verify who is or is not a real Messianic Jew.

 

[KelsayDL]

Is KelsayDL not an MJ

I am of Messianic theology, to be sure.

I am not a Jew by birth.

I understood your question to be directed to those of Messianic theology/faith, more than a natural born Jew.

I have yet to commit to any congregation. I am still studying. Trying to rightly divide the word if you will.

But when I do such, I see that those of the Messianic faith are far more inline with the scriptures. I saw err in the faith I was at one time in. So, changes must be made.

When one decides to seek the truth, more than likely he will be eventually confronted with the fact he has been living in err. If he doesn't seek to correct these errors his search is not from the heart.

I am as of now pondering going to an orthodox synagogue, or a Messianic congregation.

My only problem with the orthodox synagogue would be I would have to hide my faith in Yeshua as the one spoken of in the Tanakh. I don't think I could do that.

Do you believe Jesus is the Divine Second Person of the Holy Trinity?

In other words, is Jesus God as well as Man?

I don't believe I do any longer hold to a trinitarian belief. I did at one time without question.

I do believe Yeshua is the one Moses spoke about, and was prophesied about elsewhere.

Moses called him a prophet like unto me.

Other references are made to him as King, righteous King, and some with the reference of Lord.

I don't believe it to be critical to believe he is God. To be a catholic it is critical, but I have no desire to be a catholic.

If he is God so be it, but as I understand the Tanakh, there is only one God. Yeshua said I go to my God and to your God, that the Father is greater than he and many other things along those lines.

He also said every word spoken against him will be forgiven.

So if he is God, and I deny him that it would seem to be a relative non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

I believe he was created long ago by God, to be appointed above all men as our King one day.

But no, I do not believe he is God, nor co-equal with him.

If you have ever read the writings of Clement, I find one passage most interesting where Peter says Yeshua is the true prophet and the good King, appointed long ago over all of man and anointed by hashem with the bark of the Tree of Life.

I suppose I am more apt to believe that, than the concept of the trinity.

 

[SonWorshipper]

If you wanted all our opinions then you should have stated Messianic Believers. Sometimes jut the thoughts or comments of our Jewish brothers and sisters in Messiah are what is asked for. Messianic Judaism is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. So when you said this:

Oh! I would appreciate it if only Messianic Jews responded to this poll.

I thought you only wanted the Jewish take on it.



So with that said, my comment for now would be:

I don't think that it is fully ordained in heaven as only half of the representatives of the kingdom were present and the half that was missing were not invited, nor wanted.

 

[Salsa_1960]

I agree with the first four lines. But thats about it.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

Defianately DO NOT agree with then ending babble about the Catholic Church yada yada yada......

"The Gnostics believed that the most important Christian doctrines
were reserved for a select few. The orthodox belief was that the
fullness of the Gospel was to be preached to the entire human race.
Hence the term "catholic," or universal, which distinguished them
from the Gnostics." [ http://iclnet93.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.apostles.txt ]

The term "catholic" here does not refer directly to the Roman Catholic church. Some churches replace the word "catholic" with "Christian" when saying the creeds.

~Sandy

 

[YatzivPatgam]

<--- Kinda bummed that he can't vote.

 

[Maximus]

KelsayDL -

Thanks for your very forthright replies.

SW -

I will go back and edit the original post to indicate "Messianic Believers."

 

[Messianic Warrior]

*thumbs up on the Nicene Creed*

KTHNXBY
- Joshua

 

[Maximus]

*thumbs up on the Nicene Creed*

KTHNXBY
- Joshua

 

[OnederWoman]

I don't believe I do any longer hold to a trinitarian belief. I did at one time without question.

I do believe Yeshua is the one Moses spoke about, and was prophesied about elsewhere.

Moses called him a prophet like unto me.

Other references are made to him as King, righteous King, and some with the reference of Lord.

I don't believe it to be critical to believe he is God. To be a catholic it is critical, but I have no desire to be a catholic.

If he is God so be it, but as I understand the Tanakh, there is only one God. Yeshua said I go to my God and to your God, that the Father is greater than he and many other things along those lines.

He also said every word spoken against him will be forgiven.

So if he is God, and I deny him that it would seem to be a relative non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

I believe he was created long ago by God, to be appointed above all men as our King one day.

But no, I do not believe he is God, nor co-equal with him.

If you have ever read the writings of Clement, I find one passage most interesting where Peter says Yeshua is the true prophet and the good King, appointed long ago over all of man and anointed by hashem with the bark of the Tree of Life.

I suppose I am more apt to believe that, than the concept of the trinity.

But what about what it says in the book of John?

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

 

[OnederWoman]

I'm not Jewish by birth, and I'm not sure I could be considered Messianic... but as I've mentioned here, we did attend a MJ church for a time and it definately impacted our life and how we worship and celebrate God.

----------------------------------

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

yes

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

yes

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

yes

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

as it applies to 'catholic' being the universal church, as in 'the body of Christ', not the RC church in particular... then yes

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

if we are looking at baptism as an act symbolizing the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and that that is what brings our salvation, not baptism as a work or prerequisit to salvation... then yes

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

yes

 

[KelsayDL]

But what about what it says in the book of John?

Have you ever done a study on the formation of the NT? I mean outside of the comfort zone?

It's disturbing, yet very interesting.

I suppose what it comes down to is what you believe is really the word of God, and what you believe is the word of man.

The book of John is quite poetic, I must admit that.

And in the end may prove true. If so, so be it.

But God never said man must understand his nature in all it's detail to be "saved".

Certain men have said this.

All's God himself says is I ALONE am God.

Yeshua said as I've already pointed out, I go to be with My God and your God.

But I digress, this is not a thread about the trinity nor the reliability of scripture.

 

[yod]

The Creed of Nicea
325 A.D.

​

We believe in one God, the Father All-sovereign, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, and the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all the ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was made flesh of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man, and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into the heavens, and sits on the right hand of the Father, and comes again with glory to judge living and dead, of whose kingdom there shall be no end:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the Life-giver, that proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and Son is worshipped together and glorified together, who spoke through the prophets:

In one holy catholic and apostolic church:

We acknowledge one baptism unto remission of sins. We look for a resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.​

​

I agree....with some clarifications.


The Virgin Mary didn't remain a perpetual virgin

....and the word "catholic" has the original meaning of "universal" church, which is ALL of those who have been born again of the Spirit...not necessarily of the "Catholic" church.



Here is the troubling aspect of this creed, though.


This was the beginning of the "Catholic" church as an institution of religion. Sadly, they got off on a tangent that continues to this day whereby they set up a hierarchy of men as the sole arbitors of truth.

This set a precedent for Councils of men to proclaim themselves as rulers of the laity. Jesus clearly says that "the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them" and here is the proof!

From this point on, they could make rulings that contradicted the simplicity of the Word of G-d and it was binding upon the "peasants" to agree.....to the point of persecution or even death.

But the worst thing that happened at Nicea was that they officially severed ties with the ORIGINAL church....the Church of Jerusalem....the jews.

They began here (and continued until Vatican II 1962) to make anything jewish "anathema". We, the universal church, were robbed of our heritage by this and we still suffer the ignorance of the rulings of Nicea.

I think that these men probably had the best of intentions, but as fallen sinners they let their own bias' get in the way and therefore the entire process was tainted. They were trying to codify what it means to be a "christian" but they excluded jews in this decision as they rejected jews based on cultural differences...ya know, stuff like being biblical vs celebrating pagan feasts with new names.


And this makes it hard for me to support Nicea on any other level.

 

[Maximus]

Thank you all for your responses.

No debate from me, although I disagree strongly with a lot of what has been written by some of you.

Yod -

Where is it recorded that the Church at Jerusalem severed its ties with the rest of the Church at any time, let alone following the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325)?

Where in the proceedings of the Council of Nicea does the Catholic Church proclaim that it is severing ties with the Church at Jerusalem?

Where is it written that the Virgin Mary did not remain a perpetual virgin?

Does the Bible call anyone other than Jesus a child of Mary?

Do you think that perhaps the rejection of Christ by the Jews is what made things Jewish "anathema"?

 

[yod]

Yod -

Where is it recorded that the Church at Jerusalem severed its ties with the rest of the Church at any time, let alone following the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325)?

you got that backwards...

Where in the proceedings of the Council of Nicea does the Catholic Church proclaim that it is severing ties with the Church at Jerusalem?

this is common knowledge among jews and messianics. Are you really surprised to hear this?

a quick google search of "nicean council jews" gives quite a few pages...but here is good summary for you
http://www.yashanet.com/library/antisem.htm

Where is it written that the Virgin Mary did not remain a perpetual virgin?

It amazes me that a christian wouldn't know the Bible any better than that. Ya'acov (aka James) was Jesus' brother. The bible also mentions other brothers...seems like I remember sisters, too. (?)

Does the Bible call anyone other than Jesus a child of Mary?

yes

Do you think that perhaps the rejection of Christ by the Jews is what made things Jewish "anathema"?

No.

You are a product of jewish evangelism. Had all jews rejected Him, there would be no "church". Do you think that Peter coverted to another religion? Did Paul become Catholic?

The Church Fathers at Antioch began writing virulently anti-semetic sermons long before the Catholic Church came into being. That article explains it a little bit....

You should seek the truth and let it lead you where it may...